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All good points. Again, are we talking pain treatment or addiction treatment? Was the dose correct (what is the equivilent dose of methadone for a dose of vicodin?), was it simply an adverse or allergic response to the methadone? These questions are not directed at anyone in particular, but with any medication you can have problems.

 

For those of you that play the guitar, when you tune a string, it is always better to approach the tension on the string from below rather than above. Pain control is the same, you approach from below, not from a position of overdose.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, glad you are still with us Mike.

Edited by Dr. Bob
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All good points. Again, are we talking pain treatment or addiction treatment? Was the dose correct (what is the equivilent dose of methadone for a dose of vicodin?), was it simply an adverse or allergic response to the methadone? These questions are not directed at anyone in particular, but with any medication you can have problems.

 

For those of you that play the guitar, when you tune a string, it is always better to approach the tension on the string from below rather than above. Pain control is the same, you approach from below, not from a position of overdose.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, glad you are still with us Mike.

They tried methadone for me at first and after being on it for three days I stopped breathing. Scared shitlees that I would fall asleep and never wake up again. I will never take it again ever.

 

There is no equivilent dose for methadone - and I had the same experience I was terrified to sleep and only slept about 2 hours a night . My right leg has swelled ever since I was put on suboxone , then methadone and I have been terrified of the system . All the synthetic drugs have worse side effects then the natural ones from plants . They start most patients on 40 mg then increase as tolerated . I coulld not tolerate more then 20 mg ever after the first couple of days . It was so dangerous the U of M did that too me . I do believe it helps some people but Doctors today are so overworked they can't give enough time to patients . The system is a nitemare with no inpatient care for those without families to care for them or situations that warrant it . Sadly medication issues are considered mental health where pyschiatrists can really hurt you with drugs . .

Edited by Croppled1
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Thanks Bob, In my case it suppressed my respiratory system which is already compromised by only having one lung. I have the same problem with any time released opiate. Which makes pain control an elusive dream, after 21/2 years I live between 4 and 7 on the pain scale instead of 7 to 10. My pain doc is one of the best in the state and I have nothing but praise for what he has been able to do for me. One of the first things we talked about was realistic expectations for pain control. I told him I knew I would never be pain free again and now it is a quality of life question. Sorry here I go an derail a thread with my sob story been a few rough days. Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

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Thanks Bob, In my case it suppressed my respiratory system which is already compromised by only having one lung. I have the same problem with any time released opiate. Which makes pain control an elusive dream, after 21/2 years I live between 4 and 7 on the pain scale instead of 7 to 10. My pain doc is one of the best in the state and I have nothing but praise for what he has been able to do for me. One of the first things we talked about was realistic expectations for pain control. I told him I knew I would never be pain free again and now it is a quality of life question. Sorry here I go an derail a thread with my sob story been a few rough days. Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

Please dont' feel bad it helped me to know someone else has the same problems even though I have 2 lungs and my issue is severe pain caused by spinal stenosis and a nervous system injury which still causes swelling and terrible referred pain if I just walk in my home to cook food , bathe etc . I think it helps to understand where others are coming from and the terrible issues they face often alone . I belonged to online chronic pain support groups for years and it isn't abnormal for people to be begging for help and to die this site is calm . Some don't understand what others are going through . I will say one thing for methadone the pain conrol was excellent . It is sad so many of us can't start topics anymore . I have seen others print the same because I think if we spoke about our experiences with pain control , toxicty and eventual detox so they work again . it might help others and get the State to organize proper care for dependent patients instead of let Doctors abuse them . I have been placed in emergency by following Doctors orders to cold turkey myself only to have them yell at me and accuse me of oding when it is my withdrawl reaction . I have advocated for not only physical pain scales but mental pain scales be used to record ones experience when using any drugs on people for pain management . The U of M kept no records when I was having all those problems leaving me and any Doctors later on with records to base individual care from . Please dont' be ashamed of sharing reality which helps others including legislators understand what they have not experienced and hopefully never will . Especially the fear criminality brings to pain patients who have no desire to do anything but find comfort .

 

Weren't you the person that had to be detoxed in a ICU up North before ? I get people confused I really felt for that individual . I know what I went through to get drug free only to be in so much pain I just curled up in a ball and shook quivering .Sometimes those of us alone just have to tell someone .LIke how morphine costs $7 a month for the old school stuff and cannabis in proper amounts can run over $1000 mostely because of regulation on grows if you can find true medical grade .

Edited by Croppled1
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Thanks Bob, In my case it suppressed my respiratory system which is already compromised by only having one lung. I have the same problem with any time released opiate. Which makes pain control an elusive dream, after 21/2 years I live between 4 and 7 on the pain scale instead of 7 to 10. My pain doc is one of the best in the state and I have nothing but praise for what he has been able to do for me. One of the first things we talked about was realistic expectations for pain control. I told him I knew I would never be pain free again and now it is a quality of life question. Sorry here I go an derail a thread with my sob story been a few rough days. Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

Absolutely not a sob story. Key features- same effect with other long acting narcotics, realistic expectations (nearly 50%) reduction in pain, pain free vs quality of life, all are really important concepts. Each patient must be tailored and you bring up many aspects of that process. Far better than simply foaming at the mouth over the mention of the word methadone. All medications have their place, and no patient is a textbook.

 

I kind of view pain control like landing an airplane. The basics are there, lower gear, set flaps, adjust engine, reduce speed. But it all comes down to putting the plane on the ground without scaring the heck out of the passengers or hitting anything hard. Any landing is a good landing, if you can still use the plane again it is a great landing, and if you passengers still want to ride with you, you are a good pilot. If your passengers want to ride with you again AND you know how to crash properly then you are an Alaskan Pilot.

 

Dr. Bob

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Dr Bob you seem like a good guy we have all been through so much . You say there are two groups ones that will and wont wean . More then likely those that wont have a problem with hormones like my thyroid no longer works as I was injured at C 5 / 6 severely and fused . Many patients just haven't been ablle to care for themselves correctly on diet . Plus most important when your weaning you have to guarantee their comfort first even if you have to allow them to abort several times until they feel strong enough to go on at any level . Most important not looking at the size of the step down is the frequency of dosing taking lower doses the same frequency a day is easier for those having difficulty then giving the same dose less frequently . I hope this helps . That is why when people wean they often prefer to be on short acting opiates that come in very close step downs already . Hope your having a great day !

 

One thing I see in these posts which I already knew is everyones experience is different but I believe this may be key for many and those who you say won't wean is because it is unbearable for them and they become disoriented to where they also can't meet their responsibillities plus they had extreme pain that needed control in the first place . Those who became addicted recreationally should be able to be helped 100% of the time if taken off comfortabley in my mind it is sad what society does to them anyone can make a mistake ., but patients really are in a tough spot and often loose faith in the system and are scared to try anything anymore due to how severe the suffering can be while nobody listens and helps or even can . .

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Edited by Croppled1, Yesterday, 10:18 PM.

"LIke how morphine costs $7 a month for the old school stuff and cannabis in proper amounts can run over $1000 mostely because of regulation on grows if you can find true medical grade ."

______________________________________________________________________

 

Medicinal grade cannabis is simply not cost-effective for the majority of pain patients. My wife and I pay a higher monthly MediCare Rx premium each month that is automatically deducted from our Social Security Disability benefits. I'll have to double-check the exact amount we both have deducted but I believe it to be around $58-60 per month that we each pay.

 

We pay the higher amount because it allows us not to have to pay a co-pay for any generic medication.

 

Note: There is a HUGE difference in pharmaceutical generic medications just as there are HUGE differences between the varying strains and potencies of cannabis.

 

We learned the hard way about the difference in the varying generic medications. Not all medications are manufactured the same way with the same ingredients (fillers).

 

For instance, one of the pills I take is called Percocet. If I have it filled at Rite-Aid, I simply can NOT take it. It will tear my stomach up and cause me to be in worse pain than before taking the damned pill. You have to look closely at where the pill is manufactured. If it is made in Mexico, India, or any other country there is a good chance that your possible laundry list of side effects will happen.

 

Another pill is Mobic. I can't take that at all any longer due to the pain that it causes. However, when I was able to "stomach it", I could only take it if it was filled at a certain pharmacy. I once had it filled at Walmart (BJC - before Joseph Casias - I haven't set foot in one of their stores since marching out in the cold that windy day in Battle Creek). Sorry, I got off on a tangent. Anyway, that Mobic from Walmart put me in the hospital with excruciating stomach pain.

 

All I'm saying is that if you are forced to take ANY kind of pharmaceuticals (because you can't afford medicinal grade cannabis) - please do yourself a favor and find out where your pills are manufactured. Then, if you find out they are made in a different country, ask your pharmacist to only fill your prescriptions with pills that are made here. I have found there is a HUGE difference.

 

Pretty much the same thing as smoking Mexican brick weed if you know what I mean. I know that nobody would choose to use that stuff if you had a choice.

 

Education is the key.

 

Mizerman

Edited by mizerman
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I have 2 degenerative bone diseases, the V.A. doc's proscribed Vicodin. Having seen someone hooked on them I decide to find an alternative.

I did a lot of research on the internet and came across cannabis as a pain reliever. Having tried it when I was younger I believed it held promise.

So I got my card and gave it a try. Little did I realize that I had already started down the road of opiate addiction.

 

The realization dawned on me shortly after I started to back off on my daily pill count, I started getting these cravings that no food would satisfy.

Then I became irritable, the smallest things got under my skin. Each day was another step forward for me. Please understand I battled alcohol for years.

So I knew what was going on. It took me months of self talk and use of cannabis to overcome my " habits " I will not sit here and tell you it was easy, hell I loved to drink.

That is until I realized that it was robbing me of the things and people I loved. Same goes for opiate addiction. There was many nights that I did not sleep, I was just so cranked up on my desire for Vicodin. When my card came I would smoke some heavy couch lock meds and manage to get some much needed sleep.

Today I am proud to say I have won my battle, although am always aware of the changing weather and the pain it brings. Thank God for cannabis.

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  • 9 months later...

I was dropped by a "Spine Clinic" a few months ago (positive urinalysis for THC and Suboxone; the latter of which I have never been prescribed and have never knowingly taken). I was "lucky" in that I got two months worth of prescriptions out of them before they booted me (this was a great help in my detox). I was already physically dependent on morphine (my "medication of last resort") when I was "forced" to sign the clinic's quasi-legal-at-best "opioid agreement". In case anybody had wondered where I've been for the past few months (my thread on this has disappeared) I gave up looking for a new doctor and decided to detox on my own.

 

I'm told that I was taking "as much as could be prescribed" (~250mg/day). My pain was never adequately "managed" (never lower than a "5" until I started using MM) and I've basically been bedridden for six years due to the pain. The "PRN" pills quickly became "have to take them every time the dose comes up" (yay, tolerance!) I'd seen a study on concurrent morphine/cannabis use that indicated absolute safety (as long as the morphine dose was "safe") and dramatic reductions in both pain and opioid intake. It also indicated that cannabis helped to lessen the severity of opioid withdrawal syndrome. This "interaction" and the synergistic effects must be "magic" (as the two don't exactly hit the same receptor sites). It reminds me of the opium/cannabis "no-pain sticks" I'd used long ago.

 

Using the MM, I had some of the first nearly-pain-free days I'd experienced in years. I was able to sleep for more than three hours at a time. I was able to stockpile unneeded pills in a "just in case I have to kick" stash. I recommend that anybody currently taking opiates do this if it's at all possible. The funny thing is that I still have most of that stash because I started my detox with about half a month of pills left...

 

I dropped my dose about 5%~10% every week depending on how I was feeling. After I was down to 15mg/day, I started going as long as I could between doses until I finally reached the three-day mark (now at the 20-day mark). As I was tapering, my pain level actually began to decrease, I started looking for something to explain this phenomenon. I found a long and "heady" research paper on OIH (opioid-induced hyperalgesia). The more I read of this paper, the more I recognized my own situation. I have since confirmed (to my own satisfaction) that much of my pain was actually OIH. I am still in a fairly ridiculous amount of pain, and have no MM left, but I'm dealing with it day-by-day. I'm still taking Tizanidine PRN but what started at 12mg/day is now more like 4mg/day (or less).

 

I'd "fired" my "primary" doctor five years ago; he was a jerk and there's nothing more to be said about it. After the "Spine Clinic" dropped me, I was "doctor-free". Frankly, I don't care if I ever see a doctor (other than my "cannabis specialist") again. Seriously. The prejudice and condescension I've experienced at the hands of "medical professionals" is reprehensible. I realize they're under pressure from various Federal agencies, and subject to the same "human frailties" as anyone else, but there's something seriously "wrong" here. It's like every doctor I encounter went to medical school as "an investment"; not out of a desire to "advance" the art/science of medicine or to actually help people...

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I was dropped by a "Spine Clinic" a few months ago (positive urinalysis for THC and Suboxone; the latter of which I have never been prescribed and have never knowingly taken).

 

I was "lucky" in that I got two months worth of prescriptions out of them before they booted me (this was a great help in my detox). I was already physically dependent on morphine (my "medication of last resort") when I was "forced" to sign the clinic's quasi-legal-at-best "opioid agreement".

 

In case anybody had wondered where I've been for the past few months (my thread on this has disappeared) I gave up looking for a new doctor and decided to detox on my own.

 

I'm told that I was taking "as much as could be prescribed" (~250mg/day). My pain was never adequately "managed" (never lower than a "5" until I

 

started using MM) and I've basically been bedridden for six years due to the pain. The "PRN" pills quickly became "have to take them every time the dose comes up" (yay, tolerance!) I'd seen a study on concurrent

 

morphine/cannabis use that indicated absolute safety (as long as the morphine dose was "safe") and dramatic reductions in both pain and opioid intake.

 

It also indicated that cannabis helped to lessen the severity of opioid withdrawal syndrome. This "interaction" and the synergistic effects must be "magic" (as the two don't exactly hit the same receptor sites). It reminds me of the opium/cannabis "no-pain sticks" I'd used long ago.

 

Using the MM, I had some of the first nearly-pain-free days I'd experienced in years.

 

I was able to sleep for more than three hours at a time. I was able to stockpile unneeded pills in a "just in case I have to kick" stash

 

. I recommend that anybody currently taking opiates do this if it's at all possible. The funny thing is that I still have most of that stash because I started my detox with about half a month of pills left...

 

 

I dropped my dose about 5%~10% every week depending on how I was feeling. After I was down to 15mg/day, I started going as long as I could

 

between doses until I finally reached the three-day mark (now at the 20-day mark). As I was tapering, my pain level actually began to decrease, I started looking for something to explain this phenomenon. I found a long and

 

"heady" research paper on OIH (opioid-induced hyperalgesia). The more I read of this paper, the more I recognized my own situation. I have since

 

confirmed (to my own satisfaction) that much of my pain was actually OIH. I am still in a fairly ridiculous amount of pain, and have no MM left, but I'm dealing with it day-by-day. I'm still taking Tizanidine PRN but what started at 12mg/day is now more like 4mg/day (or less).

 

I'd "fired" my "primary" doctor five years ago; he was a jerk and there's nothing more to be said about it. After the "Spine Clinic" dropped me, I was "doctor-free". Frankly, I don't care if I ever see a doctor (other than my

 

"cannabis specialist") again. Seriously. The prejudice and condescension I've experienced at the hands of "medical professionals" is reprehensible.

 

I realize they're under pressure from various Federal agencies, and subject to the same "human frailties" as anyone else, but there's something seriously "wrong" here. It's like every doctor I encounter went to medical school as "an investment"; not out of a desire to "advance" the art/science of medicine or to actually help people...

 

WOW great story and a Sad one at that I hope people that read this can learn from it as I have

 

I had the same plan as you about the pain Pills and wanted off of them because its a Road of no return and a path of no return the more pills you take the more you need/ want

 

When we got raided I was on the road to being almost of all pain pill when our front door came down by Leo they found 300 oxcotons pills witch I had legal because I was using marihuana instead of the pills Leo left them and took the Marihuana but left me 2 joints right then Leo knew I was alluded to have marijuana for medical reasons

 

Thanks for sharing with us here good luck and if I can help in anyway let me know

 

 

Peace From The Front

Bob&Torey

 

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Have you personally tried either long term? ,

Well I have and you happen to be wrong about methadone.

 

I haven't tried birth control pills either, but that doesn't mean I don't know something about them.

 

Sorry you had a bad experience, but some of us manage these problems every day. Thank you for your opinion.

 

Dr. Bob

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i've been noticing this with some doctors.

complete ignoring of patients opinions and info.

patient is using some pills that works for him/her? who cares? doctor puts patient on the newest latest drug from the manf which has no generic (because its new) and costs $600 for 30 days.

 

the people who say caregivers are taking advantage of sick people are making whoopee shills from the pill industry.

$600 for 30 days ? those are black market prices.

 

buy your pills in canada or india , dont give these scrumpin another dime!

Edited by t-pain
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i've been noticing this with some doctors.

complete ignoring of patients opinions and info.

patient is using some pills that works for him/her? who cares? doctor puts patient on the newest latest drug from the manf which has no generic (because its new) and costs $600 for 30 days.

 

the people who say caregivers are taking advantage of sick people are making whoopee shills from the pill industry.

$600 for 30 days ? those are black market prices.

 

buy your pills in canada or india , dont give these scrumpin another dime!

 

I tend to agree with you. A very high percentage of my scripts are for established, generic medication for that reason. I view each one as something I have to buy out of my own pocket. Why, because many times I did, if not SOMEONE had to pay for it be it a patient or the insurance company, and by using established meds, I didn't run into recalls and such on the latest and greatest meds (there have been dozens).

 

The thing I've noticed is that rumors run rampant in here. One person has a bad experience with a med (especially if it wasn't prescribed with care) and then all of the sudden the med is 'bad' and they tell everyone not to use it, then those people that hear it continue to spread it. How about we remember medications are used on individuals and tailored to their needs by people who are specifically trained to understand the use of those medication. If there is an adverse outcome, look at the individual doctor responsible for the prescription before condemning a potentially useful and cheap medication.

 

Dr. Bob

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The thing I've noticed is that rumors run rampant in here. One person has a bad experience with a med (especially if it wasn't prescribed with care) and then all of the sudden the med is 'bad' and they tell everyone not to use it, then those people that hear it continue to spread it.

 

yeah, but you know why the rumors are spread. because the drug manufacturers are keeping the side effects a secret.

how many people did you hear about having heart attacks on vioxx before they finally removed it from the market?

was that a rumor? a "bad med" or doctors who didnt prescribe it for individuals correctly?

 

and its not like vioxx was the first side effect study kept secret for years.

the real question is, when are drug companies going to start paying people to spread rumors about thier competetor's drug products?

Edited by t-pain
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Did you actually read the drivel you just put up????





Most everyone has caught wind of some conversation regarding the pro’s and con’s of marijuana. With credible arguments presented by both sides, a few basic facts remain true:
  • First, marijuana is psychologically addictive.
  • Second, if abused marijuana can be very dangerous, even fatal.
  • Third, marijuana is a gateway drug and a large majority of marijuana abusers will attempt to use other recreational drugs.
  • Last, marijuana does produce both short and long-term side effects that are extremely hazardous to one’s health, safety and wellbeing especially when combined with other drugs or alcohol.

Now before you presume to lecture me about medication, I suggest you RETHINK your position on cannabis...

Now let's take the position you promote line by line.

Is cannabis psychologically addictive Crisinew?
Can cannabis be very dangerous, even fatal Crisinew?
Is cannabis a gateway drug Crisinew?
Is cannabis hazardous to the health and well being of patients that use it Crisinew?

This is the problem with rather low functioning individuals in here. There read a HEADLINE and promote it as gospel, simply because the HEADLINE says something THEY (read that as YOU Cristinew) want to promote or somehow 'disprove' when confronted with a statement by an authority in the field (Read that as ME).

Now sorry about making this a personal issue to you, Cristinew, but quite frankly I am tired of your constant sniping and total lack of information or understanding of the subject being discussed.

Now stop talking, and start paying attention to what people that actually understand these issues have to say. Maybe (but I doubt it) you might learn something about a subject you clearly know SQUAT about.

Dr. Bob

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yeah, but you know why the rumors are spread. because the drug manufacturers are keeping the side effects a secret.

how many people did you hear about having heart attacks on vioxx before they finally removed it from the market?

was that a rumor? a "bad med" or doctors who didnt prescribe it for individuals correctly?

 

and its not like vioxx was the first side effect study kept secret for years.

the real question is, when are drug companies going to start paying people to spread rumors about thier competetor's drug products?

 

Do I look like a drug company to you? You think because a rep takes me deer hunting at his club I am going to blindly prescribe his medicine when I took the time to learn the cost and side effect profiles of all the drugs that treat that particular condition? Or do you think I can think for myself and give the best and most cost effective medications to my patients.

 

Dr. Bob

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Listen to the Patients Dr bob ,,, quit bashing them,,,,,,,

 

I am not bashing patients. You are not a patient of mine. You are a whinny, ill informed, argumentative intrusion in conversations between adults. Your personality disorder and need to be disruptive have nothing to do with your status as a patient or anything else other than a personality disorder.

 

One I am tired of.

 

Dr. Bob

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