Simple As 1,2,3 - Will Be The New Policy For The Mmma Forums

[Michael Komorn]

Simple as 1,2,3 - Will be the new policy for the MMMA forums

 

So much ado has been made at our attempt to provide a reasonable policy for posting on the forums. Much debate has been had amongst the moderator staff and on the forums amongst our members. As is often the case and even more so on the Internet, communication and semantics are critical when trying to develop a consistent but clear policy regarding the Act that can be enforced easily and without issue. The unambiguous policy to date has created some confusion when its intent was just the opposite. Additionally and without merit many of the moderators have been under attack for attempting to enforce a policy that is designed only to protect patients from arrest, prosecution or penalty. The reference to Nazis is offensive and reflects an absolute lack of knowledge of history, common sense, and humanity. The comparison of anything the moderators do on this site to the devastation the Nazis did in world history is blatant ignorance.

 

Let it be stated now, and made very clear that the MMMA does not believe that the proper interpretation of the law would prohibit any of the behavior that may fall into the so called ambiguous zone. The MMMA believes that the Act should be interpreted liberally, and with the sole purpose of protecting patients and caregivers. Further the MMMA does not believe that dispensaries, farmers markets, any registered caregiver transfers to any registered patient or patient to patient transfers are unlawful. In fact the MMMA believes and acknowledges that all of these acts and behaviors are critical and essential for the medical cannabis community to survive and flourish. Why then would the MMMA attempt to create a policy that purports to limit this behavior? The answer is simple, we are not!

 

What are we trying to do then? The MMMA is simply trying to provide advice and direction for patients and caregivers to avoid arrest, and be forced to defend themselves in court. It is that simple.

 

Perhaps as simple as 1, 2, 3.

 

Simple as 1, 2, 3 will be the new policy for the MMMA forums.

 

The behavior of patients and caregivers will be and should be assessed by a ranking of risk and liability scored by Level 1 risk, Level 2 risk, and Level 3 risk.

 

Ask yourself the following question: is there a consistent and unequivocal interpretation of the behavior by patients and caregivers that LEO would agree is lawful? Said another way, would the behavior in question result in an arrest if you asked all LEO statewide? The focus here is not what the MMMA wants; the focus here is not what the MMMA believes the proper interpretation of the act should be. The focus here is not what LEO in your local community says is lawful. Instead the operative question is how do all Leo state wide interpret the act and what do they believe is unlawful behavior?

 

Is there a consistent and unequivocal interpretation of the behavior by patients and caregivers that LEO would agree is lawful?

 

If the answer is yes you are in a Level 1 Risk category and should be protected against arrest, prosecution, or any penalty.

 

All other behavior outside of this definition falls into Level 2 and 3 risk categories. Level 2 and 3 behavior is not unlawful per se, but is behavior that may subject you to a higher risk or liability of arrest. The key here is that the MMMA is not calling this behavior unlawful.

 

The Level 2 and 3 behavior however is behavior which may not without equivocation protect you from arrest, prosecution, or any penalty, although the MMMA believes it should. Those seeking information and guidance from our site need to know that your protections do not include immunity from arrest. Instead your protections will come via the affirmative defense set out in section 8 of the Act.

 

For those that are not aware, the Act is set up with 2 different levels of protection. There is a section 4 protection which is immunity from arrest prosecution or any penalty. Immunity means that after interacting with LEO, you are released without incident, no arrest takes place, medicine, money, and property is not confiscated. You are not handed an "intent to forfeit" document that requires you to post bond for your property. Immunity means you go home; you kiss your significant other on the lips when you get home and you thank the stars above that you are sleeping in your own bed instead of the concrete floor of the local county jail.

 

Then there is a section 8 protection, which is an affirmative defense. These protections are as real and as important as the protections of section 4, but they occur in a completely different environment that is important to distinguish. The section 8 affirmative defense will take place in Court, before a Judge at an evidentiary hearing (first). This game will start with you waking up from the concrete floor of the county jail. It will include eating bologna sandwiches for breakfast, the mustard jar will have something that looks like an infection growing on of the top. It will have been at least 24 hours since you spoke to your family (72 hours is the maximum), and the return to your normal life will not yet begin until you post bond, get your car out of the lot, which will cost you at least $1000. Then you will have approximately 15 days to post bond on the forfeiture case. This amount is usually 10% of the total value of the property seized. Consider the forfeiture matter a second case, one that will put the burden on you to establish that the items sought to be forfeited were acquired through lawfully earned funds. Lawfully earned funds could be a definition that is in controversy in your forfeiture case.

 

After the arraignment in your criminal case, usually done by video while you remain in the jail cell, you will be on bond. The conditions will likely include no use of medical cannabis while on bond. You will have to hire an attorney or rely upon the experience of the local court appointed attorney's knowledge of the MMMA. After many months of your case pending and when you find yourself at your evidentiary hearing for your section 8 defense much ado will be made about your bona fide relationship with your certifying doctor. "Is my doctor willing to come to court?" is a good question to ask yourself when engaging in Level 2 and 3 behaviors. Remember if your doctor is not your treating physician, in some jurisdictions you may fail to establish the first prong of section 8. Although the MMMA believes this is wrong, this is how it has played out in many jurisdictions. Awareness of these distinctions is all that is being sought by the MMMA.

 

The point here is that the different levels of protection between section 4 and section 8 are significant; with the most important factor being one protects you from arrest (Section 4) while the other (Section 8) protects you from conviction in court. The previous policy and guidance provided on the forums for our members has merely embraced a policy to avoid arrest, or Level 1 risk behavior. Moving forward the key factor that will and should be expressed will be to point out and make known what behavior falls into the category that is a Level 1 risk that protects you from arrest, prosecution and any penalty versus what behavior is a Level 2 or 3 risk that offers its protections pursuant to section 8 in court.

 

No one at the MMMA wants to be responsible for advising behavior that results in a patient or caregiver being arrested. Likewise no one at the MMMA believes patients or caregivers should be arrested. But we are living in a time when the Peoples' law has yet to be implemented as it was intended. There remain many different interpretations throughout the state that are not consistent or absolutely clear, to the extent that all LEO would agree. For example see the twisted interpretation of Court of Appeals cases from the "Legal Updates at the Michigan State

 

Police," website regarding medical marihuana.** Please note that the MMMA disagrees with these interpretations, but would be acting neglectful if we did not point out these simple facts for our community. We are not taking responsibility for how LEO currently thinks, we disagree with it and have been and will continue to try to change how they think. In the meantime, we are simply reporting it for the benefit and protection of the medical cannabis community.

 

**

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._99_390580_7.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._96_382986_7.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._91_370314_7.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._89_362839_7.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._78_276204_7.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._69_259822_7.pdf

 

 

Soon a day will come when we can all laugh about this but in the interim our community and those that post on the MMMA forums and our membership needs to be made aware and be informed. More importantly they need to act with knowledge, caution, and understanding the various levels of risk associated with the behavior they choose to engage in.

 

With that being said what once was called the unambiguous compliance policy, or behavior that would conform to those principals has been morphed into what will now be described as Level 1 risk behavior. Strict compliance with section 4 of the act is what will be advised to all who care to listen, as the type of behavior that has the lowest degree of risk of arrest. Everything else is Level 2 or 3 risk. That is to say if an encounter with law enforcement occurs the level of risk of being arrested, and being forced to defend yourself in court is higher. Is Level 2 and 3 risk behavior lawful? I personally think so, but who cares what I think. The analysis here is what we know of how LEO sees it collectively throughout the state. It may not be that way in your jurisdiction and it may be that way for a very good reason, but until all LEO acknowledge it as so, that behavior is just simply of higher risk. Please notice that nowhere in any of this analysis is the word unlawful or illegal used we are simply pointing out that there may be a higher risk of a negative outcome.

 

So please understand, that no one at the MMMA wants to impede the success of the medical cannabis community growing and thriving, we just want those that care to listen to understand the difference of how the Act is being interpreted by LEO,the courts, and the impact it is having on patients and caregivers.

 

Knowledge of these distinctions will make for a better understanding of how the lines have been drawn temporarily by the courts and law enforcement, and give our community proper notice of the risks that they may be taking when engaging in the medical use of cannabis.

 

In closing I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion created earlier, and we all look forward to your input and an educated discussion which evolves this community.

 

 

Thank you for your support and understanding.

 

Michael Komorn

 

President of the MMMA

[cristinew]

MI C H I G A N S T A T E P O L I C E

LEGAL UPDATE

NO. 89

 

The Court concluded the MMMA does not authorize marihuana dispensaries and the MMMA does not permit the sale of marihuana.

The Court reasoned the “delivery” and “transfer” of marihuana allowed under the definition of “medical use” contained in the MMMA is not equivalent to sale of marihuana. Sale consists of delivery or transfer plus the receipt of compensation which is not allowed under any provision of the MMMA.

 

That is from the Michigan State Police Website ,I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS,, and i do not want to see sick patients getting caught up in this I think patients safety first

Edited July 11, 2012 by cristinew

[mibrains]

[Restorium2]

Thanks. If I would have had this directional help in the beginning I might still be an admin. Live and learn.

[El Tiberon]

You forgot the fact that some patients cannot in fact be housed in a jail facility due to their disability. They also will not be sleeping on floors or eating bologna sandwiches and must have immediate access to medications and medical equipment to moniter them 24/7. I have no fear of arrest because they are literally powerless to keep me in a local jail. Even on a murder charge, I go to a hospital wing and put my feet up and relax. Some of us are much worse off than others. The local jail is not going to take in someone who might just stick the county with a 1 million dollar or better hospital bill.

[shishka]

I like this place all of a sudden, again.

[Dr. Bob]

Well stated Michael, I think this might clarify things.

 

Dr. Bob

[phaquetoo]

You forgot the fact that some patients cannot in fact be housed in a jail facility due to their disability. They also will not be sleeping on floors or eating bologna sandwiches and must have immediate access to medications and medical equipment to moniter them 24/7. I have no fear of arrest because they are literally powerless to keep me in a local jail. Even on a murder charge, I go to a hospital wing and put my feet up and relax. Some of us are much worse off than others. The local jail is not going to take in someone who might just stick the county with a 1 million dollar or better hospital bill.

 

I hope for your sake it is true! I got put in jail, I wasnt allowed my medications ( i had been on them for 12 yrs) I should have been in a hospital, unfortunatly I had a 10 day sentence to do (which equals 8 nites in most countys) but on that 8th nite luckily my lady came to pick me up at midnite, I wasnt out of jail 5 minutes before an ambulance was called, 20 hrs later I woke up in the hospital, but my feet were not up, I had all kinds of stuff shoved in my throat and hooke to my arms and chest! I woke up in I.C.U! so dont think becuase you are ill you will not wake up on the mettal or concrete beds, shoot I wish they gave us baloney sandwiches lmao!

 

Its as simple as 1,2.3

 

1 loose

2Lips

3sink ships!

 

Peace

Jim

[higherlearning313]

As far as I know... "sale" of marijuana is not specifically outlawed under MCL or the public health code... im not a lawyer so if im wrong please put the link or code in a reply ... and if what i said is true... it seems like the supreme court should rule on the mcqueen case that sale is allowed between patients. the only thing i can find is the delivery and possession being illegal. delivery is defined as the direct or constructive transfer of a controlled substance from one individual to another regardless of remuneration.. meaning regardless of money being transfered or not... makes sense to me that they would word it that way because it would technically prevent you from selling marijuana without breaking the law. since the mma now allows patients the "medical use" which includes delivery, transfer, and possession, you no longer have that roadblock preventing you from getting to the point that you are able to sell marijuana.

[higherlearning313]

one more thing, before i looked into the legality of "sale" of a controlled substance i felt that sale was not allowed under the act. It does not specifically address sale. The closest thing to sale that it addresses is under 4(e) where a caregiver can receive compensation for costs.. so if im wrong about "sale" not being addressed in other state laws or codes than i beleive they will not allow sale specifically

[El Tiberon]

My ICD REQUIRES uninterrupted phone service for (through cell phone and landline) downloading and sending information directly to my cardiologists office. Refractory heart failure patients have several feet of wiring inside their bodies that can be removed and used as a weapon by other inmates.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are no county jails in the US with bedside phone service, nor do they allow an inmate to possess a cell phone. When a transplant comes through and a patient is in the custody of the state, the state is responsible for not only for providing ADEQUATE medical care but also must pick up the costs related to such.

 

A patient such as myself can easily destroy the annual budget of any county jail. My diet alone will cost thousands over a healthy inmates diet. My medications are not cheap. The bedside receiver/transmitter? It is a requirement. It is a game of numbers which I intend to use to my full benefit.

 

There are those who are ill and those who are beyond the scope of reasoning of being ill. I am the latter.

Edited July 12, 2012 by El Tiberon

[phaquetoo]

My ICD REQUIRES uninterrupted phone service for (through cell phone and landline) downloading and sending information directly to my cardiologists office. Refractory heart failure patients have several feet of wiring inside their bodies that can be removed and used as a weapon by other inmates.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are no county jails in the US with bedside phone service, nor do they allow an inmate to possess a cell phone. When a transplant comes through and a patient is in the custody of the state, the state is responsible for not only for providing ADEQUATE medical care but also must pick up the costs related to such.

 

A patient such as myself can easily destroy the annual budget of any county jail. My diet alone will cost thousands over a healthy inmates diet. My medications are not cheap. The bedside receiver/transmitter? The cost of the average house in the US. It is a game of numbers which I intend to use to my full benefit.

 

There are those who are ill and those who are beyond the scope of reasoning of being ill. I am the latter.

 

Thank You for verifying that for me, I know it must not be easy, I truly am sorry, I hope I did not offend you and in No way ment to!

 

I hope you Get the medical treat ment you need and will be pulling for you!

 

I happend to be in a county jail one time and they wouldnt give a guy his blood pressure medications! (absolutly dif from your situation) When ever they walked him upto the nursing station his blood pressure was over the moon, so they went to him in his cell and did the blood pressure reading while he was in his bunk, it was acceptable, they denied him his meds and told him to stay in bed if he doesnt want high blood pressure, (honest to your god) same place that cold turkeyed me and sent me a few countys over after they couldnt take other inmates complaints over my violent withdraw!

 

so bottom line is they do not care about anyone, as far as they are concerned once your in orange (my crime of choice was dui and dws) you are the same as the rest of the scum! we are only numbers!

 

Peace my friend, I wish you the best!

 

Jim

[El Tiberon]

It is impossible to upset me over something such as this. It is my diagnosis and I have accepted and come to terms with it. The only thing left that can be taken from me is my last breath and someone will have to hold a pillow over my face to do that. Don't apologize. You could not have known. I am not done fighting yet my friend.

[jamieuke]

one more thing, before i looked into the legality of "sale" of a controlled substance i felt that sale was not allowed under the act. It does not specifically address sale. The closest thing to sale that it addresses is under 4(e) where a caregiver can receive compensation for costs.. so if im wrong about "sale" not being addressed in other state laws or codes than i beleive they will not allow sale specifically

 

If sales are not expliciltly prohibited, and the MMMA allows for transfer and acquisition between certain people- should a sale, if it occurs during the transfer and acquisition, be allowed? Did the COA lack foundation when making their determination, and create a crime where one did not previously exist? The Supreme Court will let us know.

 

Listen to attorney Tom Lavigne discuss this exact thing on Planet Green Trees webisode #100. Also, listen to Planet Green Trees webisode #101, in which Michael Komorn and attorney Matt Newburg engage in a very interesting discussion on McQueen as well as Koon and Nicholson.

 

I like the risk assessment and levels of risk discussion, that Michael has transitioned to, in terms of policy, as opposed to looking at these issues as ambiguous v unambiguous.

 

[Celliach]

My ICD REQUIRES uninterrupted phone service for (through cell phone and landline) downloading and sending information directly to my cardiologists office. Refractory heart failure patients have several feet of wiring inside their bodies that can be removed and used as a weapon by other inmates.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are no county jails in the US with bedside phone service, nor do they allow an inmate to possess a cell phone. When a transplant comes through and a patient is in the custody of the state, the state is responsible for not only for providing ADEQUATE medical care but also must pick up the costs related to such.

 

A patient such as myself can easily destroy the annual budget of any county jail. My diet alone will cost thousands over a healthy inmates diet. My medications are not cheap. The bedside receiver/transmitter? It is a requirement. It is a game of numbers which I intend to use to my full benefit.

 

There are those who are ill and those who are beyond the scope of reasoning of being ill. I am the latter.

 

They can put you in a guarded hospital room. Just because your under arrested and being detained doesn't mean they have to hold you in the jail.

[El Tiberon]

Exactly. My point was there will be no concrete floors, bologna sandwiches, and denial of medical treatment. Remember they have to pay those guards 24/7 as well. Every....Single.....Day......

[GregS]

Thankew Mr. Kormon. With luck those who insist that a limited exercise of our rights is our only protection and the only legitimate take on the issues, and who have continually harangued and insulted those of us who take a liberal position on the law, will be silenced in their insistence that our arguments have no value. To expect that they will not find something else to make fools of themselves is little doubt too much to expect.

[GregS]

My ICD REQUIRES uninterrupted phone service for (through cell phone and landline) downloading and sending information directly to my cardiologists office. Refractory heart failure patients have several feet of wiring inside their bodies that can be removed and used as a weapon by other inmates.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are no county jails in the US with bedside phone service, nor do they allow an inmate to possess a cell phone. When a transplant comes through and a patient is in the custody of the state, the state is responsible for not only for providing ADEQUATE medical care but also must pick up the costs related to such.

 

A patient such as myself can easily destroy the annual budget of any county jail. My diet alone will cost thousands over a healthy inmates diet. My medications are not cheap. The bedside receiver/transmitter? It is a requirement. It is a game of numbers which I intend to use to my full benefit.

 

There are those who are ill and those who are beyond the scope of reasoning of being ill. I am the latter.

 

This goes to the heart of the Americans With Disabilities Act. The pigs are required by law to afford us reasonable accommodation for our disabilities, to include treatment while in custody. They have refused nitrogycerine to heart patients with angina, forced patients with severe orthopedic conditions into positions and postures that cause further injury, and have killed people in their neglect of patients' conditions, both physical and mental.

Edited July 14, 2012 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Hate to burst the bubble, but just because you are on a med or treatment at home doesn't mean you will be on it in jail. They have their own doctors. Obviously, ICD care is pretty required, but don't think a sore back will keep you off a concrete bed.

 

Dr. Bob

[JohnnyC]

Well stated Michael, I think this might clarify things.

 

Dr. Bob

 

"ditto"

[ryan1918]

So I'm curious has there ever been rulings on P2P transfers?

[+Malamute]

http://annarborchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/McQueenRuling.pdf

[phaquetoo]

It is impossible to upset me over something such as this. It is my diagnosis and I have accepted and come to terms with it. The only thing left that can be taken from me is my last breath and someone will have to hold a pillow over my face to do that. Don't apologize. You could not have known. I am not done fighting yet my friend.

 

I wouldnt count on having your feet up and all the comforts of home, Im pos if your in one of the bigger countys with real county jails, ie, wayne, oakland, macomb, gennessee,etc they have their very own hospital in them, they can accomadate you as a prisoner, it will not be easy you will still be in a locked cell/room, Ive been there in oakland county yrs ago, I got my head split open by a cops service revolver butt! (he broke passenger window where i was sitting didnt even give me a chance to open door, he broke it with his pistol and than whacked me in the head, splitting it open and giving me a concushion) i said i need a dr. they said i needed to shut my mouth while they beat up the other 2 people with me, the driver and another passenger. when we got to oakland county jail, I asked to go to the hospital, they took me upto, the infirmarry and stitched my head up, kept me overnite, in a jail cell that just had limited medical equipment and my arms,hands legs and feet were strapped down so I could not get up or touch anything, not fun, id rather be in a cell with 10 or 12 other guys playing cards and b.s ing, not fun serving your time in a county jail or alone!

 

Once again best of luck! I will be hoping for your best

Peace

Jim

Edited August 27, 2012 by phaquetoo

[legacy]

What's the difference between levels 2 & 3?

 

What level is bartering for goods or services, where money is not exchanged?