Jump to content

Logic And Common Sense?


Recommended Posts

I've spoken with the lawyers, and now it's up to me to "do the right thing".

I've always loved this country, but recently had the opportunity to see a side of it that appalls me.

The lawyers all agree that it will cost me about twenty thousand dollars (nice round number, huh?) and alot of court appearences before all of this will be over. Pre trials, motion hearings, more hearings, and more hearings. It makes my head spin.

All I did was bring some plants out on my deck to spray them.

Suddenly I'm a drug lord.

Well, I'm sixty two years old, and maybe thats long enough

If I have to, I will go out on my own terms. I've been backed into a corner with nowhere to go but down.

It's a lose lose situation. If I lose in court, I go to jail, and my wife will have to pay the attorneys. If I win, I will never be able to get out from under all the money I will owe.

So, I've made up my mind. I won't play the game. They can take their ball and shove it up their arses.

When I get to court on the 27th, I will tell the judge that I cannot afford my own attorney and refuse a court appointed one.

For those who have never been in the system, like I wasn't, a court appointed attorney is not really free. That is a common misconception. They will squeeze the money out of you. A dollar at a time.

Uh uh. not this time. I won't play their game.

If the judge doesn't allow me to represent myself, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll...well, she has to. She just does.

I refuse to stick my wife with all that debt. I'd sooner die. Hmmm. Back to that conclusion.

It is getting really bad when both logic and common sense are telling you that it is time to check out. Really bad indeed.

I don't want to die, but there does not seem to be anything else to do. I have a responsability to my family.

I'd like to go fishing one more time. Read a couple of more books. Play with my grandson. All of those things are seeming a little selfish to me right now. Like I no longer have the right.

Right. It is not right. Not fair.

We won, I thought. 63% of the voters said so. I have a card in my wallet that says so. I have patients who like what I grow. I like it myself. It helps with the pain and nausea. Pretty much the only thing that does.

Who is enforcing that law? Why isn't the State stepping in to stop the crazys from stepping on us? Don't they work for us?

My chest is hurting. I need an aspirin.

But I won't let them hurt my wife. I won't let them. I won't let them. I won't let them.

I'll go to my court date on the 27th and see what happens.

And then. And then I'll do what I have to do, to protect my family.

Edited by Joel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was saving my 400th post for something really big, and you're it! Please Joel don't give up, I'm in the same situation as you are may be even worse, you see, I'm dying of cancer and I love life as much or more than any I know. You should too, you have a partner who loves you, you can't give up. Being together is most important, what will happen to her with out you in the picture. Don't desert her, she needs you as much as you need her. You also need good supporting friends and that is what we do here - right folks?

 

Look, I have been brainstorming what to do since I was visited 11 days ago. I don't know exactly what to do, but some of the things I have considered are writing (even though I have the ability of an donkey with 4 left hooves) letters to the editors, blogs, news outlets TV, Radio and Print, just anywhere I can find to submit what I wrote. I have sent emails requesting stories from my friends that I could use in an open mike nite setting. I even volunteered at the county democratic headquarters to help out. You never know who you might meet and befriend. We simply must do something and giving up is not an option.

 

See reply by phaquetoo to Request for Information, here is the link: http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/41085-request-for-information/page__st__20. It is the 24th reply to that thread, near the bottom of page 2. In here he mentions something about a sidebar with attorney Matt Abel - I don't know what this means, PM phaquetoo and ask him to explain, I did.

 

Know this also, if you meet the requirement of sec 8a(1), 1) You must have a doctors recommendation before the alleged violation, 2) You must be in possession of no more marijuana than is needed to treat your condition and 3) You must be using the Marijuana to treat your qualifying condition, then they must dismiss your charges. Please don't quote me for facts on these conditions, do your own research. Please read all of the Request for information post, they gave me a few good ideas - the most important of which is that I don't believe that I will serve jail time. It also contains some important links to Mi Sp Ct rulings that are full of good information that I hope will make you feel better. I would hope that even a court appointed attorney could get the charges dropped with out to many problems and hopefully not a lot of money.

 

Another thing that I have been considering is the fact that you are in control of your destiny, perhaps you could just use a court appointed for technical advice while representing your self. I don't know, but it's a thought. I have been told that they are supposed to do what you tell them as they work for you. Can you imagine a pissed off court appointed, is he really going to help you? Would he help you even if he isn't upset with you? I don't know, but there are some sort of guide lines he must follow.

 

Last thing I want to say is if you give up, they win and you and your family lose.

 

This crap makes me sad, we must get together and figure out how to stop it as fast as we can.

 

PM me if you just feel like talking, I've got lots of time as I no longer have my garden nor the will to begin anew - at this time. I'm sure the light at the end of tunnel can't be to far away and I'll begin again.

 

Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

never plead out!

the prosecutor will offer lesser and lesser deals towards the end, until finally giving up trying to charge you.

the MSC has said you are a patient, you are free from prosecution. just like it says in the law.

That is, hands down, some of the worst advice I've seen here. Only the person charged can truly weigh the consequences on their life that result from taking a plea. Some won't want a criminal record and think they can beat the charge. Others would rather take a plea rather than risk forking over thousands in legal costs and hours or days of time. Still others cannot stand the pressure involved with facing down a felony.

 

Furthermore, I've never seen a prosecutor keep offering deal after deal and eventually give up like you describe. I know of several prosecutor's offices that conference weekly regarding all charged felonies. The conference usually will set a cap on what will be offered. I've never seen an office that justs keeps throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. So giving someone false hope that, if they push forward, the pros. will keep offering lesser and lesser charges, and eventually dismiss, is wrong, dumb, and reckless.

 

Most offers on felonies will come before a prelim is held. Many of those offers come off the table if a defendant chooses to run the prelim rather than waive.

 

Bottom line--if you're charged you should do what is best for YOU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't go away. I was working on my "opening statement".

 

I know its corny, but I've always wanted to give an opening statement in front of a jury. You know, shades of Perry Mason, and Law and Order. Oops, my age is showing.

 

I do appreciate the support, it's been quite a long time since I posted regularly on this site. I forgot how good it felt to have people help share your pain.

 

Like many of you I have been with the Medical Marijuana Program since day one. I'm feeling that I had abandonded you these past two years. I used to post alot, but I have had a slew of medical problems, I realize this is not a good excuse, I could always sit at the computer, but the diabetes finally got to my eyesite and I was really depressed.

 

One of the prominent medical marijuana attorneys told me the judge was unlikely to allow me to represent myself without help, and I may be forced to accept a court appointed attorney.

 

I know I must be making some of you angry for contemplating, you know, and I wish there were a way I could give those of you who really need it some of my time. (wasn't there a recent movie about that?)

 

I hope I am not coming off as insane. Like I said, I do not want to die. I see it as more of a final kindness I can do for my wife. Win or lose, and I expect I would eventually prevail, the cost will be overwhelming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that a reasonable judge should throw this out.

You should check the M.S.D.S ( material safety data sheet for the product you were applying.

That will say what conditions the pesticide should be applied in, ie; outdoor, well ventilated location, stay away for a period of time or until the pesticide has dried.

There are requirements for pesticide application.

Health reasons.

Check it out, just might work maybe?

Good luck, gotta go down swinging.

Die with your boots on.

 

Herb nice post.

Very uplifting.

Thanks for that.

Jah Bless your soul on your journey wherever that may lead.

Edited by ilynnboy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You should have a good lawyer - you will likely be charged with CSA - not a MMMP offense. You will not get to use a 'opening speech' that includes medical use of marijuana.

 

Let me tell you a story of one patient I tried to help.

I helped the patient obtain plants, helped him learn to clone. He ends up with 13 plants - so I tell him he has to cull his crop. It would be easy, as I identified one plant as a male.

What does this patient do? He argues with me, he thinks it 'could' be a female, its a pretty plant! I warn him he could destroy his crop of female plants.

I come back over 3 days later, and I find he set the plant on his back deck, just like you did.

 

I immediately cut down the plant - as his wife was on my side. Saved that guy 5 years in prison.

 

The patient's comment? "Oh the police would have only took the one I was over"

 

This is not a game. I know when we all started this - we all made mistakes, or we 'tried to do the best we could' - but people are going to jail for mistakes.

 

The bottom line -you are facing felony charges, maybe even risk forfeiture of your property. You need a lawyer, he needs to work on your 'opening statement'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is that he needs $20k for a lawyer.

 

and the problem with that is even good lawyers lose.

just look at all of the cases that lost before KING was ruled on by the supreme court.

 

Joel has a steep uphill battle. oakland county is the worst in michigan.

 

if the judge and prosecutor block your ability to mention medical marijuana... well you just might want to violate their order. it will probably get you contempt of court (possibly 30 days in jail!), and the judge will yell at you. but why play his game? instruct the jury as best you can. the judges game is to find you guilty, he may disagree with the mmma law and try to thwart it in any way possible. also, instruct the jury about jury nullification, its one of the most important pieces of our justice system.

 

the only problem is that a jury will listen to a judge often. you need a good lawyer or consult to get at least one jurror for your cause, in the jury selection process. a jury 'of your peers' often is not a jury of your peers at all.

 

obviously my advice is not good for you. because you need to make up your own mind.

 

lawyers always say its bad to get on the stand, or to talk to the jury youself.

a lot of good , well meaning people have gone to jail.

they also say 'a man who represents himself has a fool for a client'

Edited by teethpain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is that he needs $20k for a lawyer.

 

and the problem with that is even good lawyers lose.

just look at all of the cases that lost before KING was ruled on by the supreme court.

 

Joel has a steep uphill battle. oakland county is the worst in michigan.

 

if the judge and prosecutor block your ability to mention medical marijuana... well you just might want to violate their order. it will probably get you contempt of court (possibly 30 days in jail!), and the judge will yell at you. but why play his game? instruct the jury as best you can. the judges game is to find you guilty, he may disagree with the mmma law and try to thwart it in any way possible. also, instruct the jury about jury nullification, its one of the most important pieces of our justice system.

 

the only problem is that a jury will listen to a judge often. you need a good lawyer or consult to get at least one jurror for your cause, in the jury selection process. a jury 'of your peers' often is not a jury of your peers at all.

 

obviously my advice is not good for you. because you need to make up your own mind.

 

lawyers always say its bad to get on the stand, or to talk to the jury youself.

a lot of good , well meaning people have gone to jail.

they also say 'a man who represents himself has a fool for a client'

 

 

"if the judge and prosecutor block your ability to mention medical marijuana.." - Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Mi Sup Ct tell us in the King/Kolanek ruling of May 31, 2012, that we have a right to an affirmative defense? I'm sure that they did and Joel will be able to mention medical marijuana.

 

Jury nullification is another story all together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't go away. I was working on my "opening statement".

 

I know its corny, but I've always wanted to give an opening statement in front of a jury. You know, shades of Perry Mason, and Law and Order. Oops, my age is showing. I too am working on my opening and closing statements. I have only begun to do my research in this area, but I believe that these statements are the best way to influence the jury not to convict me. I think that it equates to politicians defining the other or something similar.

 

I do appreciate the support, it's been quite a long time since I posted regularly on this site. I forgot how good it felt to have people help share your pain.

 

Like many of you I have been with the Medical Marijuana Program since day one. I'm feeling that I had abandonded you these past two years. I used to post alot, but I have had a slew of medical problems, I realize this is not a good excuse, I could always sit at the computer, but the diabetes finally got to my eyesite and I was really depressed. Do you use the simpson oil? This oil is said to kick start your internal organs including your pancreas.

 

One of the prominent medical marijuana attorneys told me the judge was unlikely to allow me to represent myself without help, and I may be forced to accept a court appointed attorney.

 

I know I must be making some of you angry for contemplating, you know, and I wish there were a way I could give those of you who really need it some of my time. (wasn't there a recent movie about that?) Your letter didn't make me angry, it struck a nerve. I am bipolar and suicide has been floating around in the back of my mind for oh so long, it would be so easy. However, it's not just ourselves that we must to consider, it is how the lives of the ones we leave behind will be affected that really matters. My job on this earth today is for my family to be together no matter what. I don't want my children or grandchildren to live with the fact that dad/grandpa commited suicide. I do understand your sentiments as they closely parallel my own, but the bottom line is that they need you in their lives. Each and every time someone makes me laugh, I realize in my heart that suicide is not the answer. It feels so good to me when I can laugh and I realize that it is still worth hanging around. I hope that you will keep these thoughts in mind when you are at your darkest hours.

 

I hope I am not coming off as insane. You are insane and that is perfectly normal when you are up against unjust laws and unscrupulous LEO. Like I said, I do not want to die. I see it as more of a final kindness I can do for my wife. Win or lose, and I expect I would eventually prevail, the cost will be overwhelming. I know that it is nearly impossible to forget about all that money, but, you must also weigh into the equation your families gratitude/happiness that they still have you to "kick" around.

Edited by Herb Cannabis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Herb, I had to walk away from the computer when I read your post. My eyes were filled with that moisture that blurs the eyes. It's like you have been on a tour of my mind, and I know you are right. It's not right that they have made me have these thoughts.

 

I keep hoping that this is just some nightmare I will be waking from, and that the sun will reach my eyes and I will awake to a day where this was not happening to me or to you or to so many other good people out there.

 

I have a weakness for police shows. It's not the violence, it is the compassion the make believe cops and DA's show that makes me feel kind of good.

 

I never watched the CSI NY series as I was still pretty healthy, and had a life when it was running the last seven years or so.

 

I watched one of the episodes I had recorded last night.

 

Mac Taylor, played by Gary Senise, was instrumental in helping to convict a man, played by that really big black man who was executed in the Green Mile, his name escapes me.

 

He was in jail and called Mac to tell him that he had made a mistake, and must have missed something in the evidence. Mac goes to the jail, talks to him, and sees something in his eyes that moves him. This persuades him to go back and re-examine the evidence.

 

Naturally, he finds proof the man is indeed innocent, and goes back into court, this time on the defenses side, as the prosecutor refuses to put him back on the stand to ruin his case.

 

There is a happy ending, as I'm sure you all expected.

 

I was moved by the actions of this cop with a consciense, and disgusted by the attitude of the prosecutor.

 

Where are our Mac Taylors? Is the reality that only the evil prosecutors are out there?

 

Where is my "Mac Taylor"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel. I recommend you Private message the full story no BS at all to Caveot and maybe Malamute. If you were in full compliance as you say and the city police let you go you may have something. But they are going to need the 100% straight story (not that you haven't been) just details are extremely important. This is pretty unprecedented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"if the judge and prosecutor block your ability to mention medical marijuana.." - Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Mi Sup Ct tell us in the King/Kolanek ruling of May 31, 2012, that we have a right to an affirmative defense? I'm sure that they did and Joel will be able to mention medical marijuana.

 

what i'm guessing will happen is that the prosecutor will come up with yet another argument about how the affirmative defense does not apply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the FACT that you need a lawyer. Now you start to bring up some confusion when you say you need 20k.....WTF LAWYERS ARE YOU TALKING TOOO???? Do some research pal before just giving up and checking out. For god sake your 60 something and your playing your cards like a foolish child. Chin up bud these are the cards you have CHOOSEN...Not dealt. What i mean is you choose to take your plants outside in plane view. YOU BROKE THE LAW. You can't do that. Just like another poster on here said "this is not a game". In fact this is still a war people why would you show them your base of operation? Might as well called the cops on yourself when you placed them out side. Think about MMM was supported by 60% of the voters while 40% VOTED AGAINST IT. That 40% had to get off there donkey, stop what they are doing and go vote NO. Meaning they obviously hate it. Thats 40% of the voters in michigan that are waiting for you and watching for you to make a mistake.

 

Now that I'm done preaching....I would like to advice you to do your research on lawyers. I know several in the Lansing and Jackson area that have 500 to 1000 dollar retaining fees and specialize in medical marijuana defense. Open up your phone book or use your good friend Google because I know darn well you should able to find one for 10,000 out the door after all is said and done.

 

 

CHIN UP CHAP.. You are the LEADER of your family and to talk as foolishly as your are is just plain stupid. Take action and don't play a fool by planing your "death opener" as a good defense. Get a lawyer find the money and continue to fight the good fight. If you want help then ask for it. Give us the time and date and place of your court and im sure 10 to 20 people crowded in the room showing support will pull things slightly in your favor also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not break the law. The law never said I could not bring the plants onto my deck.

 

All they say is I cannot bring them onto a school bus, into a school, or into a correctional facility.

 

You know what? I am not going to tell you my defense strategy, as some prosecutor may read it and find a way to block it.

 

If you want to know it, you are going to have to come to court.

 

It may be the strategy that brings their whole house of cards down, too. It is brilliant, if I don't say so myself.

 

I may be willing to tell a good lawyer about it, but he will have to represent me pro bono!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to hold this information back until my own trial because I didn't want the prosecutors made aware of it. I have changed my mind. There are people out there accused of crimes unjustly, and I feel obligated to release this information so as to help them all.

 

It is of particular importance for the attorneys perusing this forum to read this, as it surely will help them defend their clients.

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the qualifying patient possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana, and, if the qualifying patient has not specified that a primary caregiver will be allowed under state law to cultivate marihuana for the qualifying patient, 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility. Any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots shall also be allowed under state law and shall not be included in this amount.

 

This is the section that is our saving grace. The only other reference to where we can have plants is the section that tells us where we cannot have them. It leaves nothing out. It allows us to move plants around freely, take them anywhere we want with just three exceptions.

 

We cannot take our plants onto a school bus, into a school, or to a corrections facility. Other than that, we are free to bring them anywhere else.

 

I can bring my plant out onto my deck to get some sun, or to spray them, or just to look at them in the light. I can even leave them there unattended if I so choose. I can bring them to a compassion club meeting to allow other qualifying patients to take clones from a plant I have found to be very effective for nausea. I can take them to a horticulturalist to help diagnose a plant's sickness, I can even take them to church.

 

Just how am I arriving at that? I shall show you and you will all say to yourselves,

"how did I not see that?"

 

Take the following anecdote.

 

I had a car to sell, so I put an ad in the classifieds that stated "1999 Chevy Blazer, low miles, kept in a locked garage twelve months of the year."

 

Does a reader of this ad expect a car with virtually no miles on it? Not by any means. She expects that it was driven to work every day, driven to the market, perhaps even driven to Florida on vacation. What she does expect, is that when the car was eventually brought home, it was locked into my garage.

 

Or.

 

I have always kept my sugar in a locked pantry. Is it made a lie because I took it out to make a cake? Is it no longer true because I take it out to put some in my coffee? Of course not. After I put some sugar into my coffee, I put it back into my "locked pantry".

 

The word "kept" implies that there is a "permanent location" that you keep something when you are not doing something else with it.

 

Whoever wrote that section was thinking ahead. There was no way to envision every reason we may have to take a plant out of it's "permanent place". They could have made a list, but it would not, could not, include every case scenario. So instead, they left it wide open. Very smart, very smart indeed.

 

After having been told recently that I "broke the law" by having plants on my deck, I felt it my duty to get the truth out.

 

So, here it is. Perhaps some grateful attorney will decide to take on my case pro bono. This would help me out of the jam I am in.

 

I won't hold my breath on that.

 

Another thing. Please use you heads! I don't want to hear of any of you bringing a plant into a police station and yelling "Nya na na na na, you can't touch me, you cant touch me!" That would be insanely stupid.

Edited by Joel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ummmm I see your point and have been aware of the problem. I am reluctant to even offer any ideals due to the nature of the beast and the unwillingness of our states leadership to be reasonable. Maybe if they showed some compassion in considering what the current bills address I would be more inclined to offer some well thought out suggestions. But at this time I am not feeling the love. get my drift?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Truth is it has been discussed. We brought it up in every meeting last year. It is funny all of the reps we talked to agreed a patient or CG shouldn't automatically be guilty of a felony for having one plant over or being a little overweight in usable's but getting them to stick their necks out on it is the problem. I think we are getting really close tho..Your voices are being heard in spite of what some would have you believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well my lingering question is can I trust them?? At this point in time my gut says no.

Yes we did get a lot changed but there is just a little tweaking I would like to see as a good faith measure before I would venture to suggest anything.

 

Lets see ah here is my wish list.

 

1) instead of flat out no felonies for caregivers how about no felonies for say the past 10 years?

2) No outdoor grow covering requirement other then a chain link fence. ( the whole purpose of an outdoor grow is to use natural sunshine. )

3) fill in blank

4) fill in blank

 

I think that is fair and reasonable.

After all I will be one of many who will have to deal with the headaches of thinking a lot of issues through.

To come to some usable form of thought.

Edited by Fat Freddy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...