Acidic Forms Of Cannabinoids Reduce Nausea And Vomiting

[Norby]

You believe there was all THCA, and no THC, in your green dragon? That's oil? You eat it? How long does it take to work? Have you tried any other cannabis products for your nausea? If so, what else works for your nausea?

I have no clue.  It was an alcohol extract left in for a month turned green. Don't remember how long it took to work or how long it worked.  Are you serious with the last 2 questions? It all works in one sense or another but there are different effects with each method.  Haven't tried anything with hi cbd yet in edibles or smokeables as far as I know, so I can't attest to CBDA.  I can't even attest to the green dragon since it was never quantified, only a possible anecdotal experience.  It would need much more research on my part to get anything worth anything even to me alone.

[Restorium2]

I have no clue.  It was an alcohol extract left in for a month turned green. Don't remember how long it took to work or how long it worked.  Are you serious with the last 2 questions? It all works in one sense or another but there are different effects with each method.  Haven't tried anything with hi cbd yet in edibles or smokeables as far as I know, so I can't attest to CBDA.  I can't even attest to the green dragon since it was never quantified, only a possible anecdotal experience.  It would need much more research on my part to get anything worth anything even to me alone.

I asked you those questions in the context of what works for your nausea. The answers make all the difference for you and what helps you, THCA or THC. Since you offered yourself up as an anecdotal example, I wanted to make some use of your experiences.

 

This has been narrowed down to two separate sources of nausea with two different ways to combat it, THCA and THC. We see THC helping nausea often. The study is showing that THCA may also help some types of nausea in rats.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Restorium2

[Norby]

For me it's all anecdotal as I've never tested anything as to content.  I know what works but i don't know everything as I haven't tried everything, I just started edibles because my friends used to make them with butter and I couldn't take the dairy.  I just started coconut oil extracts and they work great for all day anxiety relief, which helps with my nausea, and less anxiety when I do smoke the slightly more anxious strains which relieve stomach pains but may cause nausea if i get too nervous. CBD may even help more let alone THCA and CBDA when I can start testing and making different extracts to find out.  I know what works but am finding other ways may work even better for getting rid of the symptoms instead of just medicating when they appear.  That would be the ultimate.  I'm doing great in the pain relief dept but weighed myself the other day and I'm down to 128 for 5'10" which worries me.  I just don't have the strains I used to for the munchies and lot's more responsibilities(stress/anxiety) and SAD this year is about as bad as it gets so as I'm doing well I'm still not eating enough.  So, to me, this is all interesting and promising.  So what works for me doesn't mean anything if I can't relate it to everything else out there.  Just means I have to try something and stick with it.  If I find that strains with THCV and CBG work really well for me I can try other strains with that profile or if I'm getting a lot of THCA in my medibles or CBDA because I'm worried about burning my MJ and not fully decarbing I'd like to know that and maybe try to decarb less because the combo(50/50) might be the best mix.  If I don't know what's in there how can I be sure to repeat it or even know what to look for for consistent relief.

 

We all have the chance to be scientists in a sense since what we're doing is anecdotal clinical trials based on one on one interactions with no placebos or controls, not really scientific in the "real" sense but we have the chance to test what we're using and get real personal medicine back into people's lives.  I respect what you do and the way you take what your patients say but I just don't like when people take studies out of context and rag on them because it doesn't jive with their world view. If you say you didn't maybe i took the comments wrong and I apologize.

 

And it's 4, you forgot CBD and CBDA, unless you don't think they have significance.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Norby

[t-pain]

how was the cbda administered to the mice/shrews ? yes im too lazy to read this one.

 

i mean, its all good if you can inject cbda directly into your brain or gut, but most people i dont think would prefer this option.

and it may take a while for drinking juiced leaves to have an effect on nausea? right?

 

its kind of like the marinol dilemma. can you keep down a pill while nauseas ? if yes, it works, if not ... not helping.

[Norby]

how was the cbda administered to the mice/shrews ? yes im too lazy to read this one.

 

i mean, its all good if you can inject cbda directly into your brain or gut, but most people i dont think would prefer this option.

and it may take a while for drinking juiced leaves to have an effect on nausea? right?

 

its kind of like the marinol dilemma. can you keep down a pill while nauseas ? if yes, it works, if not ... not helping.

But if you take a pill a day you may not get nausea in the first place.  Too many variables but I know it will help someone in some way, it seems that everything about it does in some way work for something.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Norby

[in vivo]

t-pain, they were administered both in vitro and in vivo. Mice, rats, and shrews were used in these studies.

 

The study is showing that THCA may also help some types of nausea in rats.

 

If you don't hold any value in these studies, then there's no point in you posting in these threads. As a self proclaimed "man of science", your inability to accept scientific data is befuddling. You want to discredit an individual labs report on an in vitro study, I'd get that. When you don't even appear to take the time to read the studies in a thread that you continue to voice your opinion on, not so much. At least t-pain was flat out about it. I respect that.  

 

I should add:

 

I think it's more than valid to voice concerns about whether or not scientific data correlates to our own personal experiences. I appreciate you doing so. I just think at some point we have to allow some flexibility in terms of our held beliefs. Not limp noodle, but not uncooked either. 

Edited February 25, 2014 by in vivo

[jointedone]

Why don't you just ASK an IBD pt? I use MYSELF as a guinea pig! No Drs can tell you anything,they don't know. You want to argue over what helps with nausea and vomiting? ZOFRAN.Used in my case with Indicas. I have experimented on myself for years to control it,because there is no help from the medical profession. Do I care if Zofran has side effects? NO. All I care about is controlling vomiting especially at night when I am sleeping so I don't aspirate or choke to death.Nausea comes from your BRAIN.

[in vivo]

I'm glad that you found something that works for you. When you tried CBDA did you smoke/vape, oral, or? Any idea how many mg/kg?

 

This concept isn't as foreign as it's being made out to be. Many IBS patients juice. This is simply more specific.   

 

The op states: CBDA and THCA are believed to suppress vomiting via serotonin receptors (in the brain).  

[Restorium2]

I'm glad that you found something that works for you. When you tried CBDA did you smoke/vape, oral, or? Any idea how many mg/kg?

 

This concept isn't as foreign as it's being made out to be. Many IBS patients juice. This is simply more specific.   

 

The op states: CBDA and THCA are believed to suppress vomiting via serotonin receptors (in the brain).

From what I have read about THCA, it does not have the ability to cross the brain blood barrier.

[in vivo]

Can you point me to what you've read? I can't get the entirety of the second link. I have pdf's somewhere on my pc, but they're unlabeled and need to be sorted through. It's presumptuous on my part to think the two similarities might be associated to the same mechanisms, but I did. Thanks for checking me on that, and helping me to think more critically. It's possible that only CBDA can cross the blood-brain barrier, or maybe my understanding of the blood-brain barrier is inaccurate. I won't rule any of that out. It just makes more sense in my mind that all of the acidic forms of cannabinoids, and their metabolites, might have similar pharmacological effects.

[in vivo]

You just pointed out a really interesting aspect of that second study that I didn't understand the implications of initially.

 

 

 

Key Results

In rats, THCA (0.05 and/or 0.5 mg·kg⁻¹) suppressed LiCl-induced conditioned gaping to a flavour and context; the latter effect blocked by the CB₁ receptor antagonist, SR, but not by the 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptor antagonist, WAY100635. In S. murinus, THCA (0.05 and 0.5 mg·kg⁻¹) reduced LiCl-induced vomiting, an effect that was reversed with SR. A comparatively low dose of THC (0.05 mg·kg⁻¹) did not suppress conditioned gaping to a LiCl-paired flavour or context. THCA did not induce hypothermia or reduce locomotion, indicating non-CB₁ agonist-like effects. THCA, but not THC was detected in plasma samples.

 

 

A CB1 blocker inhibited these effects by THCA. My first question is how is is their THCA material and how was it stored? But not detecting any THC in the plasma should eliminate that. It's believed that THCA doesn't activate CB1 directly. That seems to point to modulation of a endogenous cannabinoid, indirect modulation of CB1 via another mechanism, or activity at CB1 by a metabolite.

 

Here's some info on the metabolites of THCA. This was the first study of its kind, and is from 2009. Not much is known about them.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19728318

[jointedone]

Meaning that brain controlled nausea and vomiting are not the same as a food poisoning issue,or a heliobactor or C-diff bacterial or viral infections. II did happen to find out that serotonin causes nausea. Confusing to me because Prozac increases the serotonin levels in your blood,and I have been on it for years.So is taking 40mgs a day of Prozac interfering with the nausea controlling effects of Zofran? My Gastro Dr has no answer. He is also the same idiot that told me mj was addictive. So I was never able to tell him I had been using it  for years to control nausea and vomiting. Now I have gastroparesis,and nothing controls it. And we can't really discuss this fully because different people have different IBDs and nobody wants to say anything about colo-rectal problems that go along with some of them. Many pts have problems from the mouth to the rectum as these diseases get worse.There is one more form of injestion,and that is rectally. Now I can hear you all moaning,it ain't a pretty thing. BUT--(pun intended) it is another mucus membrane that puts medication into your body pretty fast. If you can't get it down,you have to put it up. Sorry,but that is the truth. So,mj suppositories? Just about any medication can be compunded into suppositories. Pardon me if this is offensive to some.                       

Edited March 3, 2014 by jointedone

[in vivo]

It looks like activation of some serotonin receptors are associated controlling nausea (like those activated by THCA), and some cause nausea (like those blocked by Zofran). Blocking the specific receptor necessary to prevent the SSRI to cause nausea seems like a good approach. To this highly unqualified observer, anyway.

 

The bigger issue seems like not being able to discuss cannabis, and his unlikelihood of knowing about the ECS.

 

Gastric emptying is regulated by the ECS. Anandamide (AEA) reduces gastric emptying, lowers metabolism, and increases weight gain. AEA is like the bodies natural form of THC, and THC has many similar characteristics. Daily consumption of THC might not be best if this is an issue. I'd avoid THCA as well if its action is associated with CB1. CBD blocks anandamide from CB1 (similar to the way it does THC), and increases gastric emptying/metabolism. It's also claimed to have added benefits in terms of nausea.

 

I'll post some threads with links discussing this.    

[in vivo]

Since you seem to find relief from cannabis in terms of your IBD, it's possible that an interrupted cycle would be more appropriate than a daily use regiment. You'll allow your receptors to build back up and allow the cannabis to work "better", and possibly increase metabolism as well.