$20M Medical Marijuana Plant Proposed For Kingsley

[Highlander]

I spoke to a lawyer prior to becoming a caregiver. I was told you could charge for your time and labor , but not sell the weed. Do me a favor, call a lawyer that specializes in Marijuana law, and tell me what they say.

The Michigan Supreme Court did not agree with the lawyer you talked to. That lawyer said the same thing as the Isabella County prosecutor. The McQueen ruling says they were both wrong.

[keyring86]

This is funny. Number one, I think you totally misunderstood, and are now misstating, what they said. Number two, if they actually said you can't "sell the weed," what did they say the exchange of money is? A donation?

I told you. Paying for time and labor.

[Highlander]

Are caregivers required to pay a sales tax? No, which was my original point. The state isn't making an exorbitant amount of money from caregivers.

I'd like to know your source on this. I don't pay sales tax on prescription drugs. But my acquisition from a pharmacy is a sale.

 

Are CGs required to pay income tax? It would be hard to argue that they aren't. Most don't because tax laws don't allow a grower to claim expenses to off-set profit. Income tax would be charged on gross sales rather than profit. Once tax and banking laws are amended to allow CGs to participate fairly in the systems, I'll bet we will see plenty of CGs paying taxes. It would be the same as many other self-employed people. Some only accept cash and don't claim it as income. Others see the benefit of keeping their business in the open so they can enjoy the benefits of showing the income. (Like qualifying for loans).

 

But it looks like we settled one dispute. It is legal for a CG to sell MMJ to one of his five patients.

[keyring86]

I'd like to know your source on this. I don't pay sales tax on prescription drugs. But my acquisition from a pharmacy is a sale.

 

Are CGs required to pay income tax? It would be hard to argue that they aren't. Most don't because tax laws don't allow a grower to claim expenses to off-set profit. Income tax would be charged on gross sales rather than profit. Once tax and banking laws are amended to allow CGs to participate fairly in the systems, I'll bet we will see plenty of CGs paying taxes. It would be the same as many other self-employed people. Some only accept cash and don't claim it as income. Others see the benefit of keeping their business in the open so they can enjoy the benefits of showing the income. (Like qualifying for loans).

 

But it looks like we settled one dispute. It is legal for a CG to sell MMJ to one of his five patients.

I pay income tax for the reason you stated. Being able to show income on paper. But my original point was that the caregiver system won't last because the state doesn't make enough money from us.

[keyring86]

OK, paying for time and labor by the ounce? That is funny. Who do you recommend I call?

Google cannabis lawyer. I'm just saying you're paying for the service and not the product.

[Highlander]

I pay income tax for the reason you stated. Being able to show income on paper. But my original point was that the caregiver system won't last because the state doesn't make enough money from us.

I get that. Your main point is a valid concern. It would be much easier to collect taxes from growers who are tracked 24/7 than from someone whose activities are confidential. But the amount of unpaid tax by CGs would be fairly low, especially if tax laws were fair.

 

The other point about sales isn't a valid concern.

[keyring86]

I get that. Your main point is a valid concern. It would be much easier to collect taxes from growers who are tracked 24/7 than from someone whose activities are confidential. But the amount of unpaid tax by CGs would be fairly low, especially if tax laws were fair.

 

The other point about sales isn't a valid concern.

I am just trying to make the point that the current benefits of being a caregiver won't last forever. I like the way the things are now and don't want them to change. I have to be realistic about the future in this industry though.

[keyring86]

Please understand also that when I say it is funny, I do not mean you, nor any offense to you. I have heard lots of funny things said by "cannabis lawyers." We've even recorded some of them weekly on Planet Green Trees.

Don't worry. I'm not offended. I like the dialouge whether I'm right or wrong. I was just trying to get you to see where my information came from.

[keyring86]

Yes I was told I could come up with how I wanted to charge. Hourly, weekly, monthly etc. I could also ask for reimbursement for the costs associated with growing their weed, but couldn't sell it. I guarantee it's what I was told.

[keyring86]

And it wasn't just me. My husband was with me and he heard the same thing lol

[keyring86]

I was told to have each one of my patients sign an agreement stating how they would be charged and what they would receive in return. I was told to keep it on the premises just in case.

[keyring86]

No I was supposed avoid saying things like that. Just supposed to specify how much I'm charging per whatever time period I decide and that I will get reimbursed for my costs. This was told to me years ago so I don't remember all the details and haven't ever drafted one up either.

[keyring86]

And yeah I think I was supposed to keep it in case I needed to show it to law enforcement or an audit or something.

[keyring86]

I went to go see the lawyer 2014. But either way it's clear that caregivers are selling weed.

[bax]

zap wants to know what lawyer told you this so they can go beat the lawyer down.

 

the lawyer is offering advice that would get you into more trouble, no doubt. paper trails and ledgers shudder. paper trails never help in court.

Edited March 4, 2017 by bax

[keyring86]

zap wants to know what lawyer told you this so they can go beat the lawyer down.

 

the lawyer is offering advice that would get you into more trouble, no doubt. paper trails and ledgers shudder. paper trails never help in court.

Why does everyone want to ignore my original point? The state isn't making a lot of money from caregivers, therefore the patient /caregiver system won't last long.

[Restorium2]

Why does everyone want to ignore my original point? The state isn't making a lot of money from caregivers, therefore the patient /caregiver system won't last long.

I know, right? That's what you came here to say. I hear you. They are only making millions and everyone wants trillions these days. So we are DOOMED!!!

[keyring86]

I know, right? That's what you came here to say. I hear you. They are only making millions and everyone wants trillions these days. So we are DOOMED!!!

I thought you were done going back and forth with me? Just couldn't resist eh?

[Apollo]

So that's your approach to make up stuff? Yeah ok. I would never grow outdoors. I don't now and I won't in the future. You still haven't told me how you're gonna make money growing for 5 people.

Dont sweat it man, this guy thinks he knows everyones intensions.

[keyring86]

Dont sweat it man, this guy thinks he knows everyones intensions.

Just another Internet bully.

[GregS]

I went to go see the lawyer 2014. But either way it's clear that caregivers are selling weed.

With something like this any caregiver can sell to any patient and use it to defend themselves:

 

Regarding the Supreme Court decision in People v Hartwick and People v Tuttle, decided January 15th, 2015, I offer the following agreement that might be used between any patient and any caregiver. Both can benefit from it under any circumstance. It costs nothing but time, ink, and paper, and offers added protection from conviction to sec. 4 provisions in the event you are arrested and tried for marijuana use if and when you need it. Your bank provides notary services to its customers free. Many physician offices have a notary on their office staff, and all attorneys have a notary on board. Please note that it covers two of three necessary elements of the Affirmative Defense found in sec. 8 of the law, i.e., that a doctor and a patient have met and concluded a bona fide medical exam and that patients and caregivers are engaged in medical use to treat or alleviate a patient's condition or symptoms. The third element is to adhere to the requirement that an amount not more than necessary is held in possession. I have suggested that twelve oz is an amount not more than necessary to supply a patient who uses a zip a month for a year, and would welcome any reasonable argument otherwise. To this point I have had no takers. You can find the ruling here. Footnotes 77 and 78 lay it out that this type of documentation is admissible, and even necessary, evidence in any prosecution regarding marijuana: http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/Clerks/Recent%20Opinions/14-15-Term-Opinions/148444%20and%20148971%20Opinion.pdf

 

The agreement's tenets were used in the successful defense in State v Steven Fisher (http://komornlaw.com...n-8-opinion.pdf). He was found to have possessed a reasonable amount more than thirty pounds and in compliance with the other elements of the required defense. It is admissible under the Michigan Rules of Evidence as self authenticating notarized evidence (MRE Rule 902 (8)) and self authenticating Certified Records of Regularly Conducted Activity (MRE Rule 902 (11)).

 

It intends to prevent the need to have a physician testify, which is not advised except if necessary to provide evidence at trial, saving time, trouble, and expense. Furthermore, it is best not to have any witness for the defense questioned by a prosecutor for obvious reasons. It intends to establish the required prima facie evidence of a bona fide physician patient relationship without a physician present.  It will be necessary to require your physician to sign his or her proof found in the supporting documents. If not, the court ruled that the actual text of the physician statement submitted as part of the registration process might suffice, and it was entered into evidence and ruled admissible by the court in Fisher. Registry cards do not. It would nonetheless be best to have both.

 

Note that this agreement is not useful to only registered patients and caregivers, but also provides what the Supreme Court ruled is prima facie evidence in non registered sec. 8 defenses. Any patient or other person, registered or unregistered, can qualify as a caregiver under the definition found in the law (sec. 3(k)) to any patient, registered or unregistered, with or without connection through the registry per the definitions found in sec. 3 of the MMA. There are no limits in sec. 8 to the number of patients a caregiver can provide for nor caregivers a patient can have. Police officers and informants who enter into it cannot entrap medical users.

 

You will do well to ask an attorney re: any legal questions. I am not an attorney and have no professional relationship with anyone in that regard. It is my own work as informed musing if nothing else. It is not intended as legal advice. If anyone should want added protection, something like this might be best used in consultation with a trained attorney. I have no objection to anyone using it verbatim or edited. It, by itself, provides no protection from arrest and due process as sec. 4 state registration does.

 

 

Patient/Caregiver Agreement to Engage in the Medical Use of Marijuana

 

I,______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am a patient under the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act, Initiated Law 1 of 2008.

 

Dr._____________________________, a physician authorized under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556, physician license I.D. number____________________ , has stated that in the physician's professional opinion, on or about (date)___________________________, and after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship, that I am likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marijuana to treat or alleviate a debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition (copy attached) .

 

I hereby designate_______________________________ as my caregiver under that law, and agree to conform to the Act in the medical use of marijuana to treat or alleviate a debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition.

 

I, ______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am at least 21 years of age and have agreed to assist with the above named patient's medical use of marijuana in accordance with that law. I have not been convicted of any felony within the past 10 years and have never been convicted of a felony involving illegal drugs or a felony that is an assaultive crime as defined in section 9a of chapter X of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 770.9a.

 

Confidentiality: Each party agrees and undertakes that it shall not, without first obtaining the written consent of the other, disclose or make available to any person, reproduce or transmit in any manner or use (directly or indirectly) for its own benefit or the benefit of others, any Confidential Information, save and except that both parties may disclose any Confidential Information to their legal advisers and counselors for the specific purposes contemplated by this agreement. Presentment or disclosure of this information is not prohibited as required by law or in any prosecution pertaining to the medical use of marijuana.

 

 

Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________

 

Patient sign here: _________________________________

 

Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________

 

Caregiver sign here: ________________________________

 

/s/_________________________________

 

Print Notary Name: ________________________________

 

Notary public, State of Michigan, County of _____________________

 

My commission expires ___________________

 

Acting in the County of ___________________

 

 

DO NOT OVERLOOK the supporting documents. Use one or the other: https://sites.google...attredirects=0, which requires notarization, or https://sites.google...?attredirects=0

Edited March 7, 2017 by GregS

[GregS]

Why does everyone want to ignore my original point? The state isn't making a lot of money from caregivers, therefore the patient /caregiver system won't last long.

That is a matter of conjecture. We intend to stand our ground and work to see that we can continue to provide and source cannabis as we have. Are you not in?

[GregS]

We'll see how far you get trying to sell weed on the black market.

Funny that.

[GregS]

I'm confused. You sent was a case that proves my point?

 

"In the case State of Michigan vs. McQueen, the high court, in a 4-1 ruling, determined that patient-to-patient sales are not allowed under the act. Such sales were the foundation most dispensaries built their business model on."

 

Where from this did you get that it's legal to sell weed?

What you obviously missed is that caregiver to patient sales are permitted. Any patient can be designated as a caregiver to any other patient, registered or not, and that designation can be defended with the proper evidence.

Edited March 5, 2017 by GregS

[keyring86]

That is a matter of conjecture. We intend to stand our ground and work to see that we can continue to provide and source cannabis as we have. Are you not in?

I like things the way they are now. But I don't see the longevity in it.