http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/uploads/gallery/album_1206/med_gallery_35077_1206_185991.jpg

Try this.

gg, more on my latest extract.  

First, notice how clear the dish of extract is.  Bud and KX sat in the freezer for 4 days. I ran three washes as you recommend.  I let it sit in between filtering as you recommend so a lot of "solids" settled out.  I really felt that this was clean.

The next pic shows the extract after sitting in a secondary bowl after it had evaporated quite a bit. Note the shiny, waxy looking "skin" on the surface.  It is basically a clear (with one exception) material similar to what you would get after boiling a chicken or turkey carcass for a couple of hours when making soup.  Its not fat, more like a greasy skin.  The "exception" are the tiny darker brown dots that you can see. At first I thought these were droplets of oil, but they're firm.

The third pics shows what I scraped out of the bowl after drawing off 1 oz of a whitish, milky substance.  Water?  It reminds me of bird seed mixed in with suet!.  I let it dry some more and pressed out more liquid (water).

The last picture shows the "block" of what I ended up with.  As I worked it into a block, droplets of water would work out.  The product is now dry to the touch, but pliably, sorta like caramel that softens when warm but firms up as it cools.  I haven't cut into it nor have I tried it yet.  Just don't know what to make of the final product, let alone knowing what to call it!

You can see oil/tar/?? on the parchment paper.  It's very sticky/gummy more like sap or pine resin and can be rolled into a ball.  Anxious to hear your thoughts on all of this.

My first thought is it is strange how you can see the water, I don't have an answer for that one unless the buds were not fully dry when you did the extraction, but it still seems odd to me. It does not look as bad as when using 190 proof alcohol. Does that sound right to you?

Have you done an extraction with this strain before?

My cleanest extraction strain, 4-G, after extracting and the product is finished, it is so clean it looks like it was winterized. That is when using 99% iso. When I switched to grain alcohol, I am assuming 200 proof will have the same effect, it did the same thing you are showing, it puttied up and was dark brown. I did get it to somewhat of a liquid state by diluting it and running that through a paper filter. I have decided I won't use my 4-G strain with grain alcohol of ethyl anymore. None of my other strains have the same negative effects. Using the 200 proof ethyl or grain alcohol, all of my strains come out a more dirty looking extract. That might be a good thing though when it comes to ingesting. The 4-G strain and a few others coming out more dirty, consuming they seem to be top shelf material, just don't have the looks, and wasteful having to refilter it.

I wish I tried smoking a slice of my puttied up 4-G, like bubble hash. I was just too focused on getting it to an oil state, which I did. If you get a chance, try smoking some. It may be the bomb when it comes to smoking.

My suggestion is try a different strain and be sure the buds are very dry when doing the extraction. I am assuming the moisture could be attributed to the alcohol drawing in water from the air.

My best guess is the strain. I have been doing one strain at a time to determine the reaction with the ethyl. I do believe you can dilute it and run it through a paper filter and it will then become more oily. More importantly is to keep it in a liquid state for the natural decarbing.

I don't know for sure yet, but I am starting to believe that the ND Sap is one of the most difficult extractions to achieve success. One of the reasons, I believe a lot of the effects of the ND Sap have to do with the actual grow room/flowering. I am guessing that any mistakes in the flower stage, nutrients, temps, etc. You can lose the terpenes or never even get them to begin with. It is possible getting all of the terpenes may only be achieved by growing in soil, but I am not sure. I am confident that if anything is lacking in the grow room, the first thing to take a hit is the terpenes then flavanoids. This is all speculation due to feedback I have received.

When it comes to fighting cancer or a serious illness, the most easy, most quick manner of getting oil is using the RSO method with a rice cooker and 99% iso or 200 proof ethanol.

This is a great article to read over. It verifies many of my opinions regarding the naturally decarbed oil I have been making. You can read their test results of using different solvents and heat decarbing. They mention a lot of good information regarding terpenes being damaged and lost during the heat decarbing process. This is why I like my oil completely naturally decarbed. It has been a night and day difference. I believe it is due to the terpenes and no heat.

http://www.bedrocan.nl/userfiles/file/cannabs%20oil%20hazekamp%20Romano.pdf

Buyers beware!  Don't get scammed. Make the concentrate yourself.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm435591.htm

Thanks for all the great info as usual, GG. I saw the CleanXtract on Amazon the other day and sure enough you're already into it. It's twice as much as the Polish vodka but purer. If I use it I will post results. 

Medmanmike, how are you filtering your alcohol? You should be using at least two coffee filters or comparable filtration. The way I get crystal clear absolute is to first make QWISO. When the ISO evaporates I redissolve in ethanol, freeze for 48 hours, and then re-filter and let evaporate. It is strain dependent as GG has said (I sometimes get sap, sometimes hard shatter) but it's usually the purest cleanest concentrate you can get. Good luck.

Nix:

For medicinal use and ingesting the oil, I am not going to use anything but KleenXtract from now on, unless I see something better and safer.

So far it has produced the most clean, highest quality extract I have tried. There is no going back to regular grain alcohol for extracting. The KX solved the water problem I was having with the 190 proof grain alcohol. At least during the winter months. I will have to do a small run this summer and see what happens.

This is just my first impression. My premium oil has not fully decarbed yet, but the low grade oil that has decarbed, made with Querkle, is the best ND Sap I have made so far.

Nix, the last run I filtered twice with a fine mesh coffee filter with an hour in between to let gravity do its thing. I've tried using a paper coffee filter, but I find it to slow going.

Gg has mentioned re-dissolving with alcohol, but haven't tried that yet. I know she uses 192 proof to re-dissolve after using KX. When it was obvious that I was getting goo, I tried using KX to re-dissolve, but it didn't work. Doesn't make sense to me, but that's what happened (or didn't). Do you ( or you, gg) have any idea as to why the KX wouldn't re-dissolve itself?

I may try your "freezing" method next time. I'm a believer in the cold extrCt method, but find it a lot easier to just boil the darn thing down and let it evaporate.

BTW, my first taste, about a "bb" size grain in a gel cap gave me zero buzz, but I did get some pain relief and a general sense of well being.

My first guess on the lack of buzz would be it wasn't fully decarbed. I have had others report the same though. Maybe it was not liquid enough for the full decarb or not enough time.

I would have done the same and tried to dissolve with the KX. That has only happened to me with one of my strains. It seemed strange to me too. That was back when I was using the 192 proof for the entire process and it was difficult for me to get it dissolve, much effort was involved.

I am guessing it is just that strain. Only 1 out of my 4 strains does the same with grain alcohol or the ethyl.

the senes of well being, I would say it is the terpenes and they can mask a buzz. I am taking the same size dose and it is getting me buzzed, but it does seem that the terpenes are somewhat masking the buzz.

I am so used to the naturally decarbed oil, it is so comfortable, I can't seem myself going back to a heat decarbed oil. However, I can see how someone might prefer the heat decarbed oil. It is a lot more intense and uppity buzz, but for me, more anxiety.

not sure if I already put this in here, but it is great information for oil makers. Worth the read http://www.bedrocan.nl/userfiles/file/cannabs%20oil%20hazekamp%20Romano.pdf

As you can see in the graph, any heat above 110F causes serious damage to the terpenes.

Here is a link to a nice article with some very good information.

http://cannabisdigest.ca/cannabis-terpene-synergy/

It discusses terpenes and cannabis.

I recently posted the following on a different forum regarding my experience and theories to naturally decarbed oil vs. heat decarbed oil.

​I think I may have figured it out. It has been shown on some graphs in the PDF document I left the link for above, that shows at 110F and above can start causing the terpenes to evaporate without a doubt.  I do have other documentation to support that.

In my herbalist books, it says that the terpenes are very delicate and to avoid evaporating them off, they recommend using a double boiler and keeping the temps between 95F - 110F, no higher. If the temps go higher, they recommend to add fresh terpene extracts.

What I think I figured out: I mentioned that I thought the heat was causing the THC to oxidize during heat decarbing. I no longer think that is the case, I believe there is no damage to the THC when heat decarbing, when done properly. Going by this document, it appears that with the full amount of terpenes, (I believe using heat to decarb it seriously evaporates the terpenes based upon the research I have done as well as my experiences) it alters the blood brain barrier and alters the THC and much more. http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Chemical-constituents-of-cannabis.pdf

Here is an excerpt from the document: PDF Pg. 24

Another excerpt: PDF Pg. 12

"The typical scent of Cannabis results from about 140 different terpenoids. Isoprene units (C5H8) form monoterpenoids (C10skeleton), sesquiterpenoids (C15),diterpenoids (C20), and triterpenoids (C30;seeTable 2). Terpenoids may be acyclic, monocyclic, or polycyclic hydrocarbons with substitution patterns including alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, ketones, and esters. The essential oil (volatile oil) can easily be obtained by steam distillation or vaporization. The yield depends on the Cannabis type (drug, fiber) and pollination; sex, age, and part of the plant; cultivation (indoor, outdoor etc.); harvest time and conditions; drying; and storage (29–31). For example, fresh buds from an Afghani variety yielded 0.29% essential oil (32). Drying and storage reduced the content from 0.29 after 1 week and 3 months to 0.20 and 0.13%, respectively (32). Monoterpenes showed a significantly greater loss than sesquiterpenes, but none of the major components completely disappeared in the drying process."

That would explain everything regarding the differences I have been noticing between heat decarbed oil and naturally decarbed oil. When using my fully heat decarbed oil I can't get a buzz to last any longer than 12 hours. With the fully naturally decarbed oil, the buzz lasts 48 hours or more and it is very comfortable. No anxiety at all. I am confident it is due to the presence of the terpenes that get lost during a heat decarb process. These terpenes can be easily lost in the grow room as well, should the plants not be in a perfect environment getting everything it wants and needs.

These are the conclusions I have come to with the difference between heat decarbed and naturally decarbed. If it were me with a serious illness, such as cancer, I would want to use both types of oil and also include fresh bud. Heat decarbing does alter some of the chemistry and converts some of the cannabinoids into another medicinal form. That is why I would want to use both for a serious illness. When it comes to just staying medicated I would choose to only use the naturally decarbed oil because I feel more comfortable and it lasts longer. Also, it has topped heat decarbed oil when used for aches, pains, cuts, toothaches, etc.

I can fully understand someone preferring the heat decarbed oil as it does offer a different buzz.

This is just based upon my opinion and the experience I have had. I am sure it could be different for others.

So sad that cannabis is still a schedule 1 drug. Our government has sold us out. They know that cannabis is one of the best medicines on earth. So why do they still have it as a schedule 1 drug? Why are people still being put in prison for it? Because the pharmaceutical companies are making it that way. They are the ones paying for the anti-marijuana campaigns and bribing the government officials to keep it as a schedule 1.

Here is more proof than anyone needs to back up my claim. At least 700 links to medicinal studies conducted on cannabis. Over 1000 pages of information. I don't see how anyone can deny that cannabis is a super medicine when grown and used correctly.

Thanks to Knucklehead bob for posting on the forum which lead me to this more up to date document.

http://www.letfreedomgrow.com/cmu/Grannys%20List%20January%202013.pdf

Here is a link to the main source of the PDF, Granny Crow's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/GrannyStormCrowsList

Here is a link to weedbay with more information and links: http://weedbay.net/faq

Hi gg,  how are you?  Haven't posted much here of late, but I continue to read your posts, etc.  I'm writing today hoping you might offer your 2 cents worth on my situation.  I haven't made any extracts of late - can't seem to use up what I've got, but I did break out the nd sap I made back in January and I must say it's pretty good.  For reference, you can review earlier posts above. You may recall that this batch turned really gooey, sap-like.  I scraped it up the best I could, formed it into a cake, wrapped it in parchment paper and sealed it in a jar.  A couple of month ago, I started testing it and it is very potent.  I dose with about .1 g (by weight) in a gel cap.  Once it kicks in - < 1 hour on an empty stomach, 3-4 hours if taken after eating.  I get good relief, but it doesn't last long.  I get about 3-4 hours of pain relief.  

My issue is that I wake up often during the night, in pain, which makes it difficult to sleep.  If I can get comfortable and/or take a couple of draws from my vape, I can usually get back to sleep for an hour or two.  The bottom line is my quality of sleep is terrible and I wake up very early in considerable pain.

My dosing looks like this.  Usually around dinner time I'll take a cap and then again at bedtime.  I'm reluctant to take a higher dose as a single dose can be pretty heavy at times.  I'm about ready to try a double dose at bed time.  I've thought, too, that maybe dosing throughout the day would be better as it would build up in my system and carry over through the night. Alternatively, I could take another dose during the night, but unsure how it would effect my getting up in the morning.

I also have not found the right strain for me yet.  I generally let the plants go a little long to get more sedative properties, but I'm thinking that there may be to much "sativa" in the strains I have, which may be impacting my not staying asleep. I'm trying DJ Short's Blueberry this time (freebie) and will be anxious to see how this works.  I'm also looking for the next grow at the CBD-crew's beans, which a lot are a 1:1 ratio to THC/CBD.  Thoughts?

So, I was wondering if you could offer some advice - not medical, of course (wink, wink).  It seems to me you've said that you dose throughout the day and your meds often last for 24 or more hours.  If only....

Any thoughts or ideas you have will be appreciated.  Thx.  mmm.

gg, one other thing. Have you seen this dosing chart?

I am not sure if it is just me when considering the effects of ND sap or if your oil does not contain the terpenes. I will explain.

When I made RSO, fully heat decarbed, I would usually get a 6 to 12 hour buzz effect from it. Same strains, same everything so strains does not have anything to do with it in my case. Then I started using lower heat and finishing up for 2 to 3 weeks with natural decarb. This was half heat, half natural decarb. I did this without realizing it actually. I would be taking doses for 1 to 3 weeks off the same syringe, then all of a sudden, it would finish naturally decarbing, keeping in mind it was already half heat decarbed. Suddenly it would double in potency, kicked my butt enough to where I was uncomfortable going to work. That is when I noticed the buzz going from 6 to 12 hours all the way to 24, give or take a few. After doing this many times, I then decided to try no heat decarbing, also kind of by accident. Anyway, the no heat whatsoever, terpenes are extremely delicate, they can even be lost in the growroom, even fan drying can cause evaporation of terpenes. I successfully naturally decarbed being extremely gentle with the extraction and preserved a majority of the terpenes, at least it seems that way. I take my small maintenance size dose and I am buzzing for 48 hours to 4 days, one dose.

I did do a comparison with winterized iso oil naturally decarbed. The winterizing process removed any buzz effects beyond 24 hours, but the buzz was awesome, totally different. It was most potent with visual effects, again, same strains.

The terpenes being intact causes the THC to change and causes the blood brain barrier to change. I believe that is why the buzz can last for days from one dose.

The problem with using iso is you have to keep the oil runny in order to contain the terpenes and help with the natural decarbing process. Runny like vegetable oil. The only real solution is to keep it extra runny, allow it to naturally decarb in a liquid state, then allow it to finish air evaporating so you are not consuming the iso, dry it to a thick sap state.

If you winterize the iso oil with ethyl or grain alcohol, that type of buzz may help you sleep better. I would try doing a fresh batch the way I suggest, using reasonably fresh buds that have been well cared for. Then I think you will see the results I spoke of because you will have more terpenes in the oil. Now it is getting into the winter months, more dry air, it will be easier to evaporate without using strong fans and such.

To sum it up, my best guess is your product may not have fully decarbed, or became high in CBN. Because it was not kept in a liquid state. I am guessing that most of the terpenes evaporated before you sampled the product. Just a guess here. Over-ripening the buds can cause the loss of essential terpenes.

I have only tried the ND sap with one patient. That patient got similar results as me. I truly believe the terpenes, and naturally decarbing (no heat) can change everything.

Are you taking hempseed oil daily? Actually, you should take that, use a small amount of honey daily, and coconut oil too. Top it off with using pink Himalayan salt. They all carry many health benefits. You may notice a difference in as little as two weeks adding these into your daily diet. Over time, the hempseed oil can aid in pain relief, reduces swelling of the joints as well as other health benefits.

Something to consider with illness, pain, or other problem with the body. In many cases, we are overweight, but malnutrition. The malnutrition can cause all kinds of problems. Sometimes the cure is simply getting the proper nutrition. I recommend to eat half of a chewable adult vitamin daily and see if that also helps with getting better rest.

I have applied all of the nutrition suggestions to myself and it has really helped me overcome some mental and physical hurdles in my life. The hempseed oil can also effect brain activity. this is the cold pressed, unrefined hempseed oil.

Have you tried the supplement melatonin? Our brains should naturally produce it. Malatonin is the chemical for sleep. However, with your pain issues, it may not be producing enough.

Do not pour off the excess water when using grain alcohol, many of the terpenes float and the rest sink. Pouring off the water, you could be pouring out half of the terpenes.

When a full spectrum of terpenes are present in the oil, you can double rick simpson's claims on what it can help with.

That's my 2 cents

Thanks for the detailed and informative response!  The batch that I referred to was a cold wash (200 proof Kleen Xtract) ND Sap per your method.  

The importance of the Terpenes makes sense to me. Careful handling too.

My sap turned 180 days back in April.  I'm putting .10g in a gel cap and get buzzed for 4-6 hours as I mentioned.  Last night, I took one at 8p and then again at 10.  I slept much better.  

I'll continue to experiment and will be making some new nd sap soon to get rid of all my sugar leafs/trimmings from the last grow.

Are the directions the same?  Any new modification since January?

Thanks again!

It is good that taking more has helped you sleep.

I have never compared ND without the terpenes vs heat decarbed without terpenes.

I think most of the problem arose from attempting the natural decarb in more of a solid form. I have had feedback from others regarding this. The more liquid, the easier it is for the solution to release the CO2.

Keep in mind, sugar shake, leaf, may not contain much by way of terpenes. Even with essential oil extracts, it is usually the same scenario where it is the flowers that contain the highest levels of terpenes.

The directions are the same, no modifications. Just feedback from others that it does not fully decarb unless kept in a liquid state.

I am not sure if it is a strain issue or what, but the length of time to decarb is not the same. Sometimes it is 120 days, others have been up to 150. Side by side comparisons too, not sure why there is a difference. Seems like my lower grade extractions naturally decarbed more quickly than the premium extractions.

Great news for Michigan Medical Marijuana patients and caregivers. The governor signed 3 bills, one of which will allow for concentrates and medibles. Now caregivers can treat their patients safely, without fear of prosecution. This will all be in effect in less than 90 days.

It will take a good year or so for Michigan patients to have access to their medicine from legal dispensaries.

It only takes 30 days to become a resident of Michigan to qualify as a Michigan medical marijuana patient.

Very exciting news!

What are you recommending for a solvent now?

What are you recommending for a solvent now?

I recommend 99% iso for RSO. Never made RSO with anything else.

Even with QWISO, I like the results with 99% iso over the QWET when using the 200 proof ethyl. Yes, I would rather it be as natural as possible, but the end product when using 99% iso can produce the best.

Thanks for the prompt reply.

I was thinking you were using the 190 proof vodka or everclear.

Plan on making some early 2017.

Hi gg, wouldn't you know it - as soon as I post on your vape blog, I find your new recommendation here!  Sorry about that......

Are the directions for RSO at the top of this blog the most current?  Thanks.