Decarboxylization

[cristinew]

much more testing is needed.. and i also think that the same plant vary s from crop to crop,, but what we are striving for is the best cannabis extract for eating,cannabis flavonoids and terpenoids do work with the other medicine in the oil, i would not want to add others to it, just want to retain what is in the plant

[Cannalytics]

much more testing is needed.. and i also think that the same plant vary s from crop to crop,, but what we are striving for is the best cannabis extract for eating,cannabis flavonoids and terpenoids do work with the other medicine in the oil, i would not want to add others to it, just want to retain what is in the plant

 

There's really nothing unique about the terpenes that are produced by cannabis as most of them are also produced by many other plants. Food-grade (some are even kosher) terpenes are used on a regular basis in the food manufacturing and perfume fields. They are purified by steam distillation. Last time I spoke with Northern Labs I believe they stated they had the ability to quantify a limited number of terpenes. Most of the information you're going to find about this specific topic online is probably incorrect and has little scientific evidence to support it. Also, lots of the cannabinoid literature that's floating around the internet is several decades old and has since been proven to be incorrect as far as biosynthetic pathways and molecular conversions go. I am very interested in this topic as well but like you say, more data is needed before we can reach any evidence-based conclusions.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Cannalytics

[cristinew]

yes its only been a few years now that CBD was an interest to patients

[Northern Lab]

There's really nothing unique about the terpenes that are produced by cannabis as most of them are also produced by many other plants. Food-grade (some are even kosher) terpenes are used on a regular basis in the food manufacturing and perfume fields. They are purified by steam distillation. Last time I spoke with Northern Labs I believe they stated they had the ability to quantify a limited number of terpenes. Most of the information you're going to find about this specific topic online is probably incorrect and has little scientific evidence to support it. Also, lots of the cannabinoid literature that's floating around the internet is several decades old and has since been proven to be incorrect as far as biosynthetic pathways and molecular conversions go. I am very interested in this topic as well but like you say, more data is needed before we can reach any evidence-based conclusions.

 

Yes, just 5 terpenes right now. a-pinene, d-Limonene, b-myrcene, linalool, and pulegone.

 

If anyone is interested in obtaining some terpenes to experiment with, let us know.

[johndeeremuskies]

you guys have never canned if you think a watrer bath will break jar. think about jars in pressure cooker.you can can tomatoes in a water bath no breakage issues

[Cannalytics]

you guys have never canned if you think a watrer bath will break jar. think about jars in pressure cooker.you can can tomatoes in a water bath no breakage issues

 

Tomatoes don't convert into a flammable gas. Also, it was not specified whether a pressure cooker would be used or not. In either event, I believe we were able to successfully answer his question to his satisfaction. And no, we don't can vegetables, we test cannabis.

[johndeeremuskies]

all I am saying is your just quessing and you statement about canning jars breaking in water bath really shows you really dont no.this is what the jars are made for, so why dont you say you dont know and all we know is testing,as that is what your answer tells me.

[Northern Lab]

all I am saying is your just quessing and you statement about canning jars breaking in water bath really shows you really dont no.this is what the jars are made for, so why dont you say you dont know and all we know is testing,as that is what your answer tells me.

 

It's not the heat, but pressure that would cause the jars to break.

 

Sealing alcohol in a jar and placing it in boiling water will cause the pressure to rise in the jar and will result in a very dangerous situation. Serious bodily harm or death could result.

 

As a rule, never boil alcohol or any other solvent in a sealed vessel.

[johndeeremuskies]

you ever been down south and see moonshine canned in mason jars.If this were the case wouldnt the jars break in a pressure cooker.Maybe spend a little time in the food garden and can your produce and you would broaden your knowledge base.you are off base when you state the jars would break that is all I am saying,I have canned many years and never have I broke a jar.Playing with alchol and fire is always dangerous and should be done outside with good ventilation with every safety precaution.

[cristinew]

i love my machine

[Northern Lab]

you ever been down south and see moonshine canned in mason jars.If this were the case wouldnt the jars break in a pressure cooker.Maybe spend a little time in the food garden and can your produce and you would broaden your knowledge base.you are off base when you state the jars would break that is all I am saying,I have canned many years and never have I broke a jar.Playing with alchol and fire is always dangerous and should be done outside with good ventilation with every safety precaution.

 

Your advice to do anything with solvents outside with good ventilation is sound.

 

I'm still not going to say it's even remotely safe to boil sealed jars full of pure alcohol long enough and at high enough heat to decarboxylate the cannabinoids, with or without a pressure canner.

 

i love my machine

 

It's a sweet little unit. Have you ever considered using hexane or another solvent with a lower polarity index to avoid dissolving out chlorophyll and other polar compounds? Might eliminate a lot of the need to carbon filter post extraction.

 

Using hexane in open air is really expensive, but in an extractor like yours, it's easy.

 

I have a gallon of hexane if you want to try it out.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Northern Lab

[johndeeremuskies]

Are people doing decarboxing plant material before makeing bho.

[mike44]

Are people doing decarboxing plant material before makeing bho.

I do if I am going to use it for medibles. Otherwise, I don't bother.

[+Green Cross]

Thanks kindly to Northern Lab guy and Cannalytics guy for helping me avoid blowing up my kitchen by wrongly trying to can glass-jar bombs full of pressurized high-strength alcohol.

[Northern Lab]

Thanks kindly to Northern Lab guy and Cannalytics guy for helping me avoid blowing up my kitchen by wrongly trying to can glass-jar bombs full of pressurized high-strength alcohol.

 

LOL.

 

Just here to help!

[t-pain]

bumping this thread because some people think dried buds are decarboxylized.

[trichcycler]

they are, just not completely.

. Low quality cannabis is often decarbd for a stronger effect. LIke leaves and junk trim most use, gathering their trash from their stash.   A high quality bud eaten after dry will most definitely have strong effects, without cooking any terpenes out.

 

Cannabis produces phyto cannabinoids in a carboxylic acid form that are not orally active at least at the CB-1 receptor sites, because they don’t readily pass the blood brain barrier in their polar form.

To enable them to pass the blood brain barrier, they must first be decarboxylated, to remove the COOH carboxyl group of atoms, which exits in the form of H20 and CO2.

Decarboxylation occurs naturally with time and temperature, as a function of drying, but we can shorten the amount of time required considerably, by adding more heat.  The more heat, the faster it occurs, within reasonable ranges, and in fact occurs spontaneously when the material is burned or vaporized. The good news about decarboxylation is that dehydration and heat speed the conversion. At least part of the reason that well-cured buds are more potent than less- or poorly-cured buds is that more of the THCA has naturally converted to THC, along with the other cannabinoids. Decarboxylation techniques improve uncured Cannabis more than cured  Cannabis, as in the latter much of the THCA has already been converted into THC. "Well cured" does not mean "long cured", rather, "correctly cured under favorable conditions".

 

crappy dried cannabis will always be more potent after a heated decarb, but fully expressed cannabis is very active when properly handled and dried. I decarb oil when its to be ingested.

Edited December 7, 2013 by grassmatch

[GrowGoddess]

 

Most RSO is actually fully decarboxylated, although trim, hash, and BHO are not. The only RSO that isn't typically decarboxylated will be on the "runny" side which is a sign that not enough heat was applied to evaporate the solvent. In the study that I referenced, a 15 minute decarboxylation time was fixed, and a broad range of temperatures were applied. Other combinations of time and temperature may also work. We also encourage people to pre-heat their plant material or hash before mixing with any other ingredients because there are "matrix effects" which could also alter the time and temperature required for decarboxylation. If pre-activating, be sure that your oven AND pan are pre-heated or the material won't truly be at an internal temperature of 300F for 15 minutes.

 

I prefer my RSO to be a little on the runny side. I am not sure if "runny" is the correct term I should use though. I have noticed that the cleaner the oil that I make and the more delicate I am about applying heat, the more "runny" the oil is. I have also noticed that different strains come out more or less runny than others. If I fully decarb my RSO when I make it, I would be causing serious damage to the oil. Some of the THC would become degraded into CBN. When my RSO is made, it still has a lot of THCa in it. Different solvents have a strong effect on the decarbing, not necessarily the heat. I let my oil sit for 8 weeks before use so the oil can finish off naturally decarbing. I have noticed that as the cleaner I make the oil, the longer it takes to fully decarb. In the beginning it was taking about two weeks. Now it has been taking about 6 weeks in storage before the oil fully decarbs. I store it for 8 weeks to play it safe. 

 

Don't forget about the terpines that could be in the red oil. You can always dry out your waste material and extract out the red oil with water. You could put equal size doses in a capsule with the RSO so you would be putting the turpines back assuming that the terpines are in the red oil, which I believe they are, at least certain ones anyway.

 

I will have to try to let a gram of QWISO hash sit for a couple of months and see if that is capable of naturally decarbing. Of course it would need to be ingested to know for sure if natural decarbing can take place with no heat what so ever.

 

Just my observations and opinions.

[trichcycler]

after/if I winterize/filter, and vacuum, @ 110f, my oil is always amber colored, and hardens like 

in a week or so. without winterization my oil remains like melted cooled plastic. 

   tamisium with ntane , 400grams ntane in, through 2 ounces, 400 grams ntane reclaimed,  under vacuum,and never heat the cannabis first .It will numb lips. If the oil is to be eaten it's warmed to 180 for a couple minutes, either in a food dish, or by itself.  runny only when warmed, otherwise taffy. My hash is heated in the hash press to 140f, its edible ten minutes later, and a great body experience. nice soft Nepalese style. yummy

[GrowGoddess]

Thanks for posting that. I have been trying winterizing and have yielded no improvements. My oil before winterizing looks like your amber stuff, if not lighter colored. I guess when it is like that winterizing serves no purpose? Now if I could winterize my golden stuff and make it more amber, that would be worth it to me. I will have to try that next time I make RSO. I usually only get golden stuff with my third, separate rinse, with the current strains I use dedicated to oil.

 

Same with my oil grassmatch. As soon as I am done purging it you can eat it and get an awesome buzz, a nice body and head buzz. After I let it sit for a good 6 to 8 weeks, it is a whole different story. It seems far more potent, wicked may be the right word to describe it. Try sitting on it sealed up for 6 weeks and then eat some. See if it gets more potent. Let us know if it has any improvements after 'curing'.

[trichcycler]

"improvement".....yes, some would say so. I notice a pronounced difference between a freshly extracted and an aged one. I prefer the fresh one. prolly a personal thing.

 

I think you use alcohol(?) if so winterizing will remove some more impurities. beware, after winterizing and filtering I have lost 30-60 percent of the weight, mush of what is wax(waxy trichome head coverings), and other plant lipids. All very tasty to most. the amber glass is another animal, more than twice the potency (by weight) as the full extract, and tastes like different too.  wish you were closer, I can tell we'd have a blast, or two.

[trichcycler]

Same with my oil grassmatch. As soon as I am done purging it you can eat it and get an awesome buzz, a nice body and head buzz. .

 

 

you mean to say that even without heating and further decarboxylation, your fresh oil is awesomely active in the body and brain when ingested ?    mine too, with 100% of the terpene profile in tact, and every possible flavor available to the palate.  If we used leaves and other scraps, the results would be different, because of the lower "quality" or lack of active ingredients in those plant parts.   

[Restorium2]

Better to use all the sugar leaves and smaller buds, then tailor the oil to what ever use you are planning to use it for. Glean everything medical worthy off a plant THEN take what you want from what you have collected. I find it lazy and wasteful to toss away truely excellent medical marijuana because you only know how to use what you get from the best of it.

[Restorium2]

If you winterize an alcohol extraction and find nothing in your filter, then you left a lot behind.

[trichcycler]

I agree, I waste nothing. I grow pure veganics, making my own soil, my own fertilizer and tea with 50k worms. They are on a strict diet of trim, fan leaves, and cannabis garden scraps. They spilt this with my breeder rabbits for a daily meal treat. my worms will devour 5 pounds of fan leaves in a week for thought, but they return to me fresh black gold soil recycled every week. That is the ultimate show of recycling I could manage. I save my dried flower tops for our meds.

 I do admit  that I do not save my roaches, or pipe cleanings either. not since I was carded, that much may be wasteful

Better to use all the sugar leaves and smaller buds, then tailor the oil to what ever use you are planning to use it for. Glean everything medical worthy off a plant THEN take what you want from what you have collected. I find it lazy and wasteful to toss away truely excellent medical marijuana because you only know how to use what you get from the best of it.