Draw Mahammad Day!

[phaquetoo]

TY,

 

Humor is One of the Best Medicines we have within Ourselfs.

 

 

Agreed Pm me bro when you get time! I miss your posts!

[+420Atheist]

If draw Mohammed day did anything I hope it taught people that we will not let religious moralities dictate our personal freedoms. That is a slippery slope no one wants to go down.

 

Rand Paul said corporations should be able to serve who ever they want to. That means restaurants can put up signs "whites only" like they did when I was a kid. Even conservative pundits like George Will said we don't want to relive this issue. What Paul wants is not free markets it is apartheid. If you must support a conservative libertarian look at Gary Johnson. Most conservatives want businesses to operate without any regulations but then want to pose all kinds of restrictions on personal behaviour. At least Johnson sees that victimless crimes are infringement on personal freedoms.

 

I support and appreciate our troops. I don't support the interventionist policies of the US. Those policies are having the opposite effect of making us more safe.

[phaquetoo]

911 time to bring this back, and I think that minister should have stuck to his guns and burned the koran, curan, what ever they call it.

Peace

FTW!

[Guest Marywanna]

NO MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO!

[+420Atheist]

NO MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO!

 

You got it. There is no mosque at ground zero. It is two blocks away at an old Burlington Coat Factory store on land they own. There is a strip club closer to ground zero than the mosque. Why no outrage for that?

[+RevThad]

You got it. There is no mosque at ground zero. It is two blocks away at an old Burlington Coat Factory store on land they own. There is a strip club closer to ground zero than the mosque. Why no outrage for that?

Hey now, what do you have against strip clubs? They bring more people together from various walks of life than any concrete place of worship has ever done

[+420Atheist]

Hey now, what do you have against strip clubs? They bring more people together from various walks of life than any concrete place of worship has ever done

 

You got me there.

 

I've got nothing against them except that I can't afford them.

[imiubu]

911 time to bring this back, and I think that minister should have stuck to his guns and burned the koran, curan, what ever they call it.

Peace

FTW!

 

Hi buddy, been wondering where ya been... haven't seen you post in awhile, how goes it?

[raythat]

They say we are at war with terror, but on this anniversary, as I reflect upon the horrors of 9/11/2001 and all that followed, I've come to the conclusion that what we're really at war with is bigotry, intolerance, and fanaticism in all it's forms. To kill a spreading vine, burn out it's roots. ~Ed

[Guest Marywanna]

Are you mocking me? Not the right day to do that, my freind. Many people lost loved ones,not just people that live in Manhatten. I wouldn't say anything like that to you.

[+420Atheist]

Are you mocking me? Not the right day to do that, my freind. Many people lost loved ones,not just people that live in Manhatten. I wouldn't say anything like that to you.

 

Nope not mocking. I'm just not agreeing with what you said. The mosque is not at ground zero. It is a mosque near ground zero. I also think the defenders of the mosque are being disingenuous by calling it a community center. It will contain pray area so it is a mosque.

 

I agree a lot of people have died. 4000 Americans and 200,000+ Iraqis died in operation Iraqi Freedom with the stated goal of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people. Those people are by in large Muslims. We sent US troops to die for the freedom of Muslims in Iraq but we are going to tell Muslims here in the US they can't build a place of worship on land they own? Can we fight intolerance by being intolerant?

 

Look at it this way. What if the Catholic church wanted to build a church near Auschwitz? Should they not be allowed to? After all Hitler was a Roman Catholic and the Jewish people surly consider Auschwitz, where by some estimates, 3 million people were murdered. You don't blame the Catholic church for Hitler why blame Islam for 9/11?

 

Now to be clear we are talking about tolerance and freedom. I am not defending Islam or any religion. Trying to make Bronze Age religions with Bronze Age ethics fit with modern society is more than just a stretch. You have to be able to pretend parts of the teachings don't exist and you have to ignore reality as we know it. But that is another discussion.

[Guest Marywanna]

Actually I think the Catholic Church should build a cathedral in Mecca,since you asked. The Church DID want to build a Convent at Auschwitz, and then didn't because Jewish Religious Community there didn't want them to. Out of common human decency. The Pope didn't make thinley veiled threats that Muslims in the whole world would be all PO'd about it,and become violent. But yeah,I would like to discuss this with you. I like to hear other peoples opinions and ideas,just don't call me any names,okay? People can discuss their differences without getting all burned up. MW

[+420Atheist]

Actually I think the Catholic Church should build a cathedral in Mecca,since you asked. The Church DID want to build a Convent at Auschwitz, and then didn't because Jewish Religious Community there didn't want them to. Out of common human decency. The Pope didn't make thinley veiled threats that Muslims in the whole world would be all PO'd about it,and become violent. But yeah,I would like to discuss this with you. I like to hear other peoples opinions and ideas,just don't call me any names,okay? People can discuss their differences without getting all burned up. MW

 

I agree that Catholic church should be able to build on any land they owned and they did. That story reported by Beck and Rush and most of Faux News was 100% false. The Center for Dialogue and Prayer in Oswiecim was built a few blocks from the gas chambers at Auschwitz and it was build after the Carmelite controversy. Article about Catholic Church at Auschwitz The article even includes the satellite map showing the church just steps away from Auschwitz.

 

I absolutely agree that Islam is the one religion that can not take any criticize without threating violence. Their civil right crimes against their own women, and the penalty for apostasy puts them at the top of my list of the worlds biggest problems. But, just to be clear, I don't think much more of any of the Bronze Age religions. I kind of like the Buddhist but they are more of a philosophy than a religion.

 

No I don't resort to name calling. If we can't have a reasoned debate it is not worth having.

 

My take still is they own the land so I guess they can do what they want. Do I think it is a jerk move? Ya but in America we are free to be jerks. What might be a better solution is to buy the property on each side and put a gay bar on one side and a lesbian bar on the other. That is how we in America get even. Let them have a call to pray while guys in buttless chaps and girls with butch haircuts are hanging around. They hate that kind of thing even worse than Christians do.

 

Now the burn the Quarn thing. I say go for it. Islam does not have any right not to be offended. None of us do. And I have come to the conclusion it is a jerk move on the preachers part, and Islam may retaliate but, we have freedom of speech in the US and part of keeping that is exercising that even in light of threats.

[just_speakin_my_mind]

This is not the place to perpetuate ignorance and un-informed hate mongering....

 

You have the right to your beliefs, and to voice them..

but just because you have the right, it ALSO means you SHOULD have the intelligence and maturity enough to decide where and when it is appropriate...

 

Considering this site is for ALL people-- not just those YOU like or agree with, you made a VERY poor choice-- probably not your 1st OR your last-- all things considered.

[+420Atheist]

This is not the place to perpetuate ignorance and un-informed hate mongering....

 

You have the right to your beliefs, and to voice them..

but just because you have the right, it ALSO means you SHOULD have the intelligence and maturity enough to decide where and when it is appropriate...

 

Considering this site is for ALL people-- not just those YOU like or agree with, you made a VERY poor choice-- probably not your 1st OR your last-- all things considered.

 

Perhaps you could be a little more specific about who this poising of the well was intended for so that person can respond. I don't think either Mariwanna or I fit the broad brush you paint with. But please elaborate on what was said by either side of the argument that was "ignorant or un-informed."

 

As for not the place to voice these opinions I think it is exactly the place. This part of the forum comes with the warning "BE WARNED... THIS FORUM IS UNCENSORED AND MAY BE GRAPHIC"

[+RevThad]

I haven't read anything offensive in this thread, yet. Though I have a pretty thick skin.

 

Just to add a little perspective to the overall picture in NY....

 

St. Nicholas Church in limbo..

 

(snippet)

 

At a news conference near the trade center site, church officials appeared with former Gov. George E. Pataki and a Greek-American Congressional candidate from Long Island — both opponents of the Islamic center — to make their case: Government officials who appear to be clearing the way for the center, which includes a mosque, are blocking the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Church, the only house of worship destroyed in the terrorist attacks.

 

And though church officials did not go quite as far, Mr. Pataki and the candidate, George Demos, drew a sharp line between the rightness of the Greek Orthodox project and the wrongness of the Muslim one.

 

Mr. Pataki cast doubt on the wisdom of city officials’ allowing a community center and mosque near ground zero when “we don’t know the funding, we don’t know the view of the people behind it.” By contrast, he said, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which oversees the trade center reconstruction site, had failed to “reach out and engage in a dialogue” about rebuilding the church with Greek Orthodox officials, who, he suggested, were a known quantity.

 

(end snippet)

 

Both should be green lighted if they have the money to do so, and the buildings meet code requirements...

 

As for the possibility that the Islamic center might be run by radicals, I say so what. Let them build it anyways, at least those that need to know will know where the radicals are... Get politics out of religion, and keep the religion out of politics.

 

Just my opinions.

[+420Atheist]

Interesting article. They don't really say what is blocking the Greek Orthodox church. In fairness it has been nearly 10 years and the ground zero site is still nothing more than a dirt pile. It seems that no rebuilding is happening by anyone for whatever political reason so I question the assertion that the Greek church is being singled out in any way. I just can't imagine how anyone could argue against letting people do what they want with land they own. At least not in the US.

 

Get politics out of religion, and keep the religion out of politics.

 

You got that right. If people want to see how having religion mixed in with government is working they only have to look to the Middle East to see how that works for them.

 

The New York Times article did continue some of the same fallacies we have talked about.

 

New York’s First Congressional District. Mr. Demos said, without offering evidence, that the Islamic center would be built with money from Saudi Arabia, “a nation that prohibits people from even wearing a cross or the Star of David.”

 

Even if true what is the point? That we should be as intolerant as Saudi Arabia is? Freedom of religion and freedom from religion is one of the things that makes us a great nation.

 

Mr. Pataki cast doubt on the wisdom of city officials’ allowing a community center and mosque near ground zero when “we don’t know the funding, we don’t know the view of the people behind it.”

 

Pataki is suggesting that we should not allow churches/mosque to be built if we disagree with the views of the people behind building it? That sure seems like a direct assault on freedom of religion to me.

[+RevThad]

My friend, I don't think suggesting that Saudi Arabia is an example of mixing religion and politics is accurate, over there religion rules politics, slight but important difference.

 

The largest congregation in this country held services at the capitol for many years after our founding, and also in many state capitols until the SCOTUS ruling that redefined the establishment clause to read "seperation of church and state". That ruling to me still feels like the rulings that declared "seperate but equal" as being a valid position. I still see that ruling as one of the first steps into attacking the rest of our guaranteed rights and freedoms... take away a people's faith and you can do anything you want to them.

 

Excellent points though.

[Guest Marywanna]

I do not and will not ever call someone names or be rude because they do not agree with my views. This is the beauty of our Freedom here. JSMM called me ignorant on this subject,I am not. If this Forum is not the place for this discussion,one of the Mods can tell me that,and I will respect the rules of posting here. And thats why I will ignore your hateful comments on any subjects I have posted on. I have always been a member in good standing here and do not insult people that do not agree with me. I would appreciate the same treatment from others. 420,Rev and I are having a conversation,not an argument. MW

[+420Atheist]

My friend, I don't think suggesting that Saudi Arabia is an example of mixing religion and politics is accurate, over there religion rules politics, slight but important difference.

 

 

True. Shira law is the law of the land. I'm not suggesting it is as bad here as there but there are people who are trying to head us that direction. They are the ones who say the 10 commandments should be the law of the land. The debate tactic I normally bring up in person at this point is to ask what the 10 commandments are. I have yet to meet someone who gets all 10. Most only get two or three. I then name them and suggest that not only does an atheist know them better but I bet they have broken several of them recently.

 

The idea that the US was founded on Christianity is a much debated topic. Over the years I have found that for every quote I come up with where a founding farther said something anti religion there is one that seemed to be pro religion or at least references a god and that seems to be proof enough for people who want to believe it. One thing is certain that many of the names we commonly recognize were deist and not devout Christians. Even George Washington has been much debated by historians as to if he was a deist or not but one thing is certain. Washington refused to take communion and would leave the church early during the ritual. Later his priest talked with him and he stopped attending on Sundays the ritual would be performed. There is no doubt a lot of people fled Europe for religious freedom. For a great essay on the subject of the first religious refugees to America check out Sarah Vowell's book The Wordy Shipmates. She shows how the echo's of those people beliefs are still heard in our politics today.

 

However I do contend that our founding farthers were intending a "wall of separation" between church and state. Thomas Jefferson said in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Church:

 

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

 

At least Thomas Jefferson's views seemed clear. The historians debate about Jefferson if he was a deist or atheist. Newspapers of the times accused him of being an atheist. Jefferson specifically named Joseph Priestly (English Unitarian who moved to America) and Conyers Middleton (English Deist) and said: "I rest on them ... as the basis of my own faith" He clearly rejected the Christian teaching to the dismay of many religious leaders of the time who attempted to demonize him in the press.

[+420Atheist]

I do not and will not ever call someone names or be rude because they do not agree with my views. This is the beauty of our Freedom here. JSMM called me ignorant on this subject,I am not. If this Forum is not the place for this discussion,one of the Mods can tell me that,and I will respect the rules of posting here. And thats why I will ignore your hateful comments on any subjects I have posted on. I have always been a member in good standing here and do not insult people that do not agree with me. I would appreciate the same treatment from others. 420,Rev and I are having a conversation,not an argument. MW

 

Marywanna, I do respect the views of everyone here. I'm not sure if JSMM was talking about you or me. Either way they are wrong. Open discussion and debate is what opens minds not closes them.

 

I don't let personal attacks bother me too much in these forums. It speaks more about the writer of the attack than it does the person they are attacking. It simply means they can't articulate a good counterpoint to my premise.

 

Big hug your way Marywanna. That way we both feel better whoever JSMM was talking about. (closest smiley I could find to a hug) LOL

[Guest Marywanna]

I just think we all have enough crap going on in our lives,why make it worse when it costs nothing to be kind. That doesn't mean I don't get po'd and yell about stuff. Now I just pick my battles, I don't waste the time or energy on useless stuff. If we were all the same life would be pretty boring. LIONS STILL SUCK!!! See?? I can get mad

[+RevThad]

I won't get into debating whether either of the men you mentioned were or weren't religious/spiritual, as Jefferson wrote that is between them and their god (if any).

 

However, one must also put that passage into context. The framers had seen what happens when you allow the nation to declare an official religion, the Church of England was still very much a power at the time. Not wanting that same sort of corruption here, the founders wrote that very protection into our constitution, and went further by giving each of us the freedom to choose our own religious/spiritual beliefs or none at all.

 

With that as the backdrop and the constitution ratified, there were still states with their own official religions. Which leads to the question of if a state was allowed to have an official religion at the time of ratification, how could the current understanding of the establishment clause be even a remote representation of the intent of the clause? It can't. Logic would dictate, that if there were state sponsored religions at the time, then the understanding of the clause must be that the federal congress was not to write any law interfering with the states and or individuals and their practice of religion, and further the federal government was not to declare or establish their own religion. The framers were clearly studying the treatises of Locke, Acquinas, Cumberland, and others when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution itself, I would suggest that those very treatises provided the sentiment of the documents we cherish this very day... Don't you think the following clearly comes from Locke on natural law?

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

I wish you well

[+RevThad]

I just think we all have enough crap going on in our lives,why make it worse when it costs nothing to be kind. That doesn't mean I don't get po'd and yell about stuff. Now I just pick my battles, I don't waste the time or energy on useless stuff. If we were all the same life would be pretty boring. LIONS STILL SUCK!!! See?? I can get mad

I personally have enjoyed the discussion in this thread, thanks to all that have been taking part.

 

GO BEARS!

 

What too soon?

[phaquetoo]

Im baaaccckk! Ye ha

muslimes smell realy bad!!!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim