Draw Mahammad Day!

[+420Atheist]

I won't get into debating whether either of the men you mentioned were or weren't religious/spiritual, as Jefferson wrote that is between them and their god (if any).

 

However, one must also put that passage into context. The framers had seen what happens when you allow the nation to declare an official religion, the Church of England was still very much a power at the time. Not wanting that same sort of corruption here, the founders wrote that very protection into our constitution, and went further by giving each of us the freedom to choose our own religious/spiritual beliefs or none at all.

 

With that as the backdrop and the constitution ratified, there were still states with their own official religions. Which leads to the question of if a state was allowed to have an official religion at the time of ratification, how could the current understanding of the establishment clause be even a remote representation of the intent of the clause? It can't. Logic would dictate, that if there were state sponsored religions at the time, then the understanding of the clause must be that the federal congress was not to write any law interfering with the states and or individuals and their practice of religion, and further the federal government was not to declare or establish their own religion. The framers were clearly studying the treatises of Locke, Acquinas, Cumberland, and others when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution itself, I would suggest that those very treatises provided the sentiment of the documents we cherish this very day... Don't you think the following clearly comes from Locke on natural law?

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

I wish you well

 

Very good Rev. You have a great grasp of the historical perspective. I believe that is exactly what Jefferson was telling the Danbury Church that under the new central government they being a minority church in the area would no longer be controlled by the state. The intent of the letter was to let them know the state would not be in their business. But I also think he was making another point that the wall of separation would also keep the state church from influencing the state.

 

It is possible that the Decoration of Independence come from natural law. However that was a document we sent to the King to pi$$ him off. When our current government was formed 12 years later (first we tried it under the Articles of Confederation) the constitution never mentions a god or creator in any way. However I still don't buy the mentioning of a creator in the Declaration of Independence proves a Christian foundation. It was written mostly by Jefferson and Franklin two of the most vocal about their lack of Christian beliefs. Look up Franklin and the HellFire Club for some interesting dirt on good old Ben. He is the kind of guy I would have enjoyed hanging around.

[phaquetoo]

Hi buddy, been wondering where ya been... haven't seen you post in awhile, how goes it?

 

 

it goes good! How you doing? its good to be back,

Peace

FTW

Jim

[Ionic7]

Im baaaccckk! Ye ha

muslimes smell realy bad!!!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

 

 

You know not all muslims are terrorists out to blow you up right? Open a book get an education and stop being ignorant.

[phaquetoo]

You know not all muslims are terrorists out to blow you up right? Open a book get an education and stop being ignorant.

 

 

ok I will do that, thank you for the update!

Peace

FTW

Jim

[phaquetoo]

I think it would be just a wonderful idea for the muslimes to build a mosque a block away from the twin towers! NOT!!!!

 

who realy cares about the familys who lost loved ones or the soldiers who have died? I DO!

 

I think im awake, or did i have a bad dream 9 yrs ago?

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

[+RevThad]

I think it would be just a wonderful idea for the muslimes to build a mosque a block away from the twin towers! NOT!!!!

 

who realy cares about the familys who lost loved ones or the soldiers who have died? I DO!

 

I think im awake, or did i have a bad dream 9 yrs ago?

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

Morning Jim,

 

I think too many folks are mixing 2 separate questions when it comes to this issue. Can they build it, and should they build it.

 

To answer the first, yes they can. As much as I don't like the idea of it, I will fight for their right to do so. If I were to sit back and allow the government and politicians to prevent this place of worship from being built on privately owned land, I would be a hypocrite. When we allow the government to prevent the building of a religious center, because folks are offended, we open the doors for the government to violate the constitution on purely subjective terms. I cannot be part of that.

 

Now for the second part of the equation, should they build it there? Probably not. If what the Imam says is true, and it is meant to be a place to bring people together and start closing some serious wounds, then perhaps he shouldn't be pouring rock salt into those wounds. He could have called together a town hall meeting of the families and victims of 9/11 and presented it as a way of building a bridge, taking their input, and letting them feel as if they were a part of the decision making. On top of that he could have pulled together the various religious and community leaders and had the same discussion.

 

I am a bit cynical and believe that this mosque and the location is a deliberate attempt to stick a thumb in the eye of the American people. With the way it was announced, its location, and lack of current funding, I believe that it was designed to provide plenty of video and sound bites suggesting that we (Americans) are intolerant and don't practice what we preach when it comes to freedoms and acceptance of all religions.

 

I guess the way I feel about it, is very similar to the way I feel about folks that want to burn flags to express themselves. The courts have said that they do have the right to do so, just as if they do it in front of me, I have the right to express myself about their actions, which will in turn trigger their right to file charges if and when they become conscious again. I would gladly take responsibility for my actions, and they would understand the consequences of theirs. It is as simple as that.

 

For the record I am not advocating violence. Just one last thing to think about. If we prevent this mosque from being built, who is doing more dishonor to the folks that died that day; the folks that want to build it or the people that tossed aside the constitution to stop it?

[phaquetoo]

Morning Jim,

 

I think too many folks are mixing 2 separate questions when it comes to this issue. Can they build it, and should they build it.

 

To answer the first, yes they can. As much as I don't like the idea of it, I will fight for their right to do so. If I were to sit back and allow the government and politicians to prevent this place of worship from being built on privately owned land, I would be a hypocrite. When we allow the government to prevent the building of a religious center, because folks are offended, we open the doors for the government to violate the constitution on purely subjective terms. I cannot be part of that.

 

Now for the second part of the equation, should they build it there? Probably not. If what the Imam says is true, and it is meant to be a place to bring people together and start closing some serious wounds, then perhaps he shouldn't be pouring rock salt into those wounds. He could have called together a town hall meeting of the families and victims of 9/11 and presented it as a way of building a bridge, taking their input, and letting them feel as if they were a part of the decision making. On top of that he could have pulled together the various religious and community leaders and had the same discussion.

 

I am a bit cynical and believe that this mosque and the location is a deliberate attempt to stick a thumb in the eye of the American people. With the way it was announced, its location, and lack of current funding, I believe that it was designed to provide plenty of video and sound bites suggesting that we (Americans) are intolerant and don't practice what we preach when it comes to freedoms and acceptance of all religions.

 

I guess the way I feel about it, is very similar to the way I feel about folks that want to burn flags to express themselves. The courts have said that they do have the right to do so, just as if they do it in front of me, I have the right to express myself about their actions, which will in turn trigger their right to file charges if and when they become conscious again. I would gladly take responsibility for my actions, and they would understand the consequences of theirs. It is as simple as that.

 

For the record I am not advocating violence. Just one last thing to think about. If we prevent this mosque from being built, who is doing more dishonor to the folks that died that day; the folks that want to build it or the people that tossed aside the constitution to stop it?

 

First of all did you change your screen name?

 

It is very hard to argue with your reasoning! I totaly respect all that you have said, I could not have put my words together as good as you have here.

 

I have to say I totaly agree with all you have said here! unfortunatly my mind can not be changed on this subject!

I realy think it is in realy bad taste to even consider a mosque that close to ground zero!

 

We protect the country that most of them terrorist came from (saudi arabia) and our female soldiers cant drive or have any rites, (not to mention the woman that live in that country). they mostly have to stay on base, unless they are out kicking iraqs butt, so they dont take over most of the middle east! Dessert sheild, Dessert storm!

Not to mention, we can not have a christian place of worship in that country!

That country is a religious dictatorship ran country! (the most radical muslim sect sharia)

 

They realy need to consider putting their mosque some where else! Im pretty sure some one will pull a timothy mcvee on that mosque if it is built there, Im not saying they dont have a rite to build a place of their worship, im saying it is insulting to put it where they want to!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

[Ionic7]

First of all did you change your screen name?

 

It is very hard to argue with your reasoning! I totaly respect all that you have said, I could not have put my words together as good as you have here.

 

I have to say I totaly agree with all you have said here! unfortunatly my mind can not be changed on this subject!

I realy think it is in realy bad taste to even consider a mosque that close to ground zero!

 

We protect the country that most of them terrorist came from (saudi arabia) and our female soldiers cant drive or have any rites, (not to mention the woman that live in that country). they mostly have to stay on base, unless they are out kicking iraqs butt, so they dont take over most of the middle east! Dessert sheild, Dessert storm!

Not to mention, we can not have a christian place of worship in that country!

That country is a religious dictatorship ran country! (the most radical muslim sect sharia)

 

They realy need to consider putting their mosque some where else! Im pretty sure some one will pull a timothy mcvee on that mosque if it is built there, Im not saying they dont have a rite to build a place of their worship, im saying it is insulting to put it where they want to!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

 

 

So you think that just because some lunatics went and screwed up backwoods hicks like yours views on Muslims they should be denied basic rights that every American is entitled too? You are missing the point, being very biased and one minded, Yes they can build it there, would it be in bad taste? Absolutely. But hey if you feel like you can trample on peoples rights because you don't like them does that mean cops can raid you take your meds and arrest you because they don't agree with you? It is the exact same thing just on a different wave length. At what point do you decide when to say people cannot have something?

[Guest Marywanna]

DUH. So doesn't Phaq have the RIGHT to say what he wants,even if YOU don't like it? And you don't need to insult him,I am proud of being a hick. More people should be hicks. We are honest and hard working.

[+420Atheist]

I think it would be just a wonderful idea for the muslimes to build a mosque a block away from the twin towers! NOT!!!!

 

who realy cares about the familys who lost loved ones or the soldiers who have died? I DO!

 

I think im awake, or did i have a bad dream 9 yrs ago?

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

 

So does building a Catholic Church a block away from Auschwitz mean the Christians are disrespecting the 3 million Jews who died there? After all Hitler was a Catholic. For the matter of fact with that logic we probably should not build Christian churches anywhere in the US because of the genocide we attempted on the Native Americans.

 

Honest debate is fine but lets not use poising of the well fallacies by suggest that believing that people can do what they want with land they own means we don't care about the people who died in the towers or our troops who died in Iraq supposedly fighting for the freedom of people who are mostly Muslims.

[Ionic7]

DUH. So doesn't Phaq have the RIGHT to say what he wants,even if YOU don't like it? And you don't need to insult him,I am proud of being a hick. More people should be hicks. We are honest and hard working.

 

 

He does have the right to say it it just doesn't make it right, and nothign wrong with being a hick just dont be an ignorant one and call all of one religion out for somethign some nut cases did, that is just blatantly ignorant.

[Guest Marywanna]

Hey 420,I remember you saying Hitler was a Catholic.I am a WW2 history buff and never heard that before.And I thought that the Church wanted to build a Convent,not a church near the site. We already talked about that. I am just standing up for Phaqs right to say as he wants to and don't think calling him names is the right thing to do.But you know what? Because of your statement,I am going to do some more research on Hitler,it is very interesting. Did you know he was born on 4-20? MW

[+RevThad]

Not just the freedom of Muslims in the "Middle East" but also in the Balkans during the '90's. Just something that often goes unspoken.

[+RevThad]

So does building a Catholic Church a block away from Auschwitz mean the Christians are disrespecting the 3 million Jews who died there? After all Hitler was a Catholic. For the matter of fact with that logic we probably should not build Christian churches anywhere in the US because of the genocide we attempted on the Native Americans.

 

 

At best one could say he was raised as a Catholic, but even cursory research suggests that he rejected Catholicism when he left home and embraced more of a Pan-Germanistic religious belief... which was anti-Rome and anti-organized religion...

 

I would love to read any source that you have that suggests differently, as I enjoy learning and being able to compare such information.

[1337Gr33n]

So does building a Catholic Church a block away from Auschwitz mean the Christians are disrespecting the 3 million Jews who died there? After all Hitler was a Catholic. For the matter of fact with that logic we probably should not build Christian churches anywhere in the US because of the genocide we attempted on the Native Americans.

 

I agree with your logic Athiest420, but not the fact presented. Hitler may have been raised Catholic, but he was a PURE athiest. In fact, there are placards in some of the death camps with a quote of his, "I want to raise a generation devoid of a conscience; imperious, relentless, and cruel." He and Mussolini rooted both of their philosophies soundly in athiesm and darwinistic "Survival of the Fittest".

 

Christianity (both protestant and catholic) and Islam HAVE committed massive atrocities, and continue to do so. But let us keep it real, so has atheism.

[Guest Marywanna]

He was very close to his Mother,she was Catholic,but I believe his Father was not and was a cruel person. One religion HAS apologized and acknowleged it's mistakes,and that is the Catholic Church. Always wondered why humans have the need for religion. Is it to explain the things we don't understand?

[+420Atheist]

Hey 420,I remember you saying Hitler was a Catholic.I am a WW2 history buff and never heard that before.And I thought that the Church wanted to build a Convent,not a church near the site. We already talked about that. I am just standing up for Phaqs right to say as he wants to and don't think calling him names is the right thing to do.But you know what? Because of your statement,I am going to do some more research on Hitler,it is very interesting. Did you know he was born on 4-20? MW

 

He was baptized a Roman Catholic. "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." from his book Mein Kempf. There are dozens of speeches where he mentions his beliefs. Hitler aside there is no debate on if the Catholic church was complacent with Nazi Germany. As you point out the pope apologized for the churches role. But remember the point. The two situations are the same. So why no condemnation for building a church so near Auschwitz?

 

Also I have yet to see anyone counter the main point. In the US should we be able to tell people they can't worship whatever god the want to on land they own?

 

I don't have a problem with Phaqs disagreeing with our position. Lively debate is encouraged by me. However lets have intellectually honest debate. His post suggest that because we are of the belief that the Muslims should be able to do what they want with land they own we don't morn the loss of our troops or the people who died on 9/11. That is an intellectually dishonest debate technique that is a fallacy of distraction. In other words he is distracting from the point by making it seem like those who disagree with him don't care about the people who died in 9/11 or Iraq. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Intellectually honest debate only includes two things:

1. revealing errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts

2. revealing errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

Anything else is a fallacy of logic, concept, distraction, or authority.

 

I also want to reiterate that I have read the Quran and have serious problems with it's teachings. But then again I have read the bible a couple of times and feel the same way about that.

[+420Atheist]

He was very close to his Mother,she was Catholic,but I believe his Father was not and was a cruel person. One religion HAS apologized and acknowleged it's mistakes,and that is the Catholic Church. Always wondered why humans have the need for religion. Is it to explain the things we don't understand?

 

Exactly. This may be a big can of worms to open up. Religion explains things we don't understand and it is a moving target. As we gain understanding religion slowly and reluctantly adjust to the undeniable evidence. Even Pope Benedict gets it.

 

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

 

Interesting enough he was discussing how two countries have held on to this creationist idea more than the rest. He was talking about his home Germany and the US.

 

As much as I would like to discuss religion further there is no closer held beliefs than religious ones. I don't want there to be hard feelings with anyone here. So I think we should tread lightly into the "does god exist question."

[+420Atheist]

I agree with your logic Athiest420, but not the fact presented. Hitler may have been raised Catholic, but he was a PURE athiest. In fact, there are placards in some of the death camps with a quote of his, "I want to raise a generation devoid of a conscience; imperious, relentless, and cruel." He and Mussolini rooted both of their philosophies soundly in athiesm and darwinistic "Survival of the Fittest".

 

Christianity (both protestant and catholic) and Islam HAVE committed massive atrocities, and continue to do so. But let us keep it real, so has atheism.

 

He did believe in evolution as a scientific fact. But I would like to see some evidence he was an atheist. In my other post I quoted from his book. There are a lot of speeches he gave where he mentioned his Christian beliefs. I can post dozens but here is a pretty clear one.

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

 

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

 

 

Again for clarity I do not demonize all Christians because of Hitler. Nor do I deomonize all Muslims because of 9/11.

[phaquetoo]

So you think that just because some lunatics went and screwed up backwoods hicks like yours views on Muslims they should be denied basic rights that every American is entitled too? You are missing the point, being very biased and one minded, Yes they can build it there, would it be in bad taste? Absolutely. But hey if you feel like you can trample on peoples rights because you don't like them does that mean cops can raid you take your meds and arrest you because they don't agree with you? It is the exact same thing just on a different wave length. At what point do you decide when to say people cannot have something?

 

 

So im a back woods hick? Well thank you very much, I have worked and earned that title, You mite also want to call me a hill billy or white trash also! Why do these folks have any rites at all? they were not born here, and most likly they are involved with some sleeper cell,,,,sorry dude why dont you just take your complaints to nancy pellosi! Oh wait that mite be your wife eh?

 

No Peace for Muslims

FTW

Jim

 

(i mite not have been born and raised with the kenedy's but I was raised by citidiots and couldnt wait to get out of the rat race)

[Ionic7]

So im a back woods hick? Well thank you very much, I have worked and earned that title, You mite also want to call me a hill billy or white trash also! Why do these folks have any rites at all? they were not born here, and most likly they are involved with some sleeper cell,,,,sorry dude why dont you just take your complaints to nancy pellosi! Oh wait that mite be your wife eh?

 

No Peace for Muslims

FTW

Jim

 

(i mite not have been born and raised with the kenedy's but I was raised by citidiots and couldnt wait to get out of the rat race)

 

 

You know that some words you replace ite with ight correct? And tell me why you are so special to get rights and they are not, clearly you view yourself on a higher pedestal than all of them so tell me why a muslim that has done nothing wrong gets should not have RIGHTS(not rites)our ancestors were not born here and came searching for freedom the same thing that they are doing now so tell me what the difference is why do you view yourself better than them for no reason clearly you are not educated better than them you as you are still misspelling 5 letter words.

[Guest Marywanna]

Oh come on now. Stop fighting like little boys. Ionic,you called Phaq a degrading name.Us "hicks" are getting pretty sick of being the last group of people that can be called names and nobody says a word about it. And if you want to get picky about it,you wrote a whole paragraph with no punctuation except for one comma. Save the name calling for PMs,thats why they are there.

[Rashore]

wow, folks are getting aggressive...

 

It's not cool to mock anyones religion really, though earlier in the thread we were keeping a positive humor spin on it.... It's extra not cool to condemn or think ill of an entire religious segment due to the actions of a few...

 

Not every Muslim is a fanatic ready to go out and do damage to the infidel.

Not every Catholic priest is a child molester.

Not every hick is ignorant or bigoted.

Not being a hick gives no protection from being ignorant or bigoted.

No religion has sole claim to horrors. No religion can claim to be completely exempt from horrors either.

No religion has apologized for every single horror within it's history. Neither have countries or governments. Or probably you and I for that matter.

 

darn...

[Ionic7]

wow, folks are getting aggressive...

 

It's not cool to mock anyones religion really, though earlier in the thread we were keeping a positive humor spin on it.... It's extra not cool to condemn or think ill of an entire religious segment due to the actions of a few...

 

Not every Muslim is a fanatic ready to go out and do damage to the infidel.

Not every Catholic priest is a child molester.

Not every hick is ignorant or bigoted.

Not being a hick gives no protection from being ignorant or bigoted.

No religion has sole claim to horrors. No religion can claim to be completely exempt from horrors either.

No religion has apologized for every single horror within it's history. Neither have countries or governments. Or probably you and I for that matter.

 

darn...

 

 

word up lets just agree all religions are stupid and cause unnecessary death.

@Phaq, You never answered my question, if you feel like they do not deserve any rights for just being a Muslim, why should you get rights as a patient by your logic, how would you like it if you were arrested and your meds confiscated and denied your rights as an American just because someone did not agree with you? I tried to stick to mostly small words for you.

 

PS- It's the internet people ignore punctuation nothing wrong with that but not having the ability to spell a 5 letter word correctly is just sad.

[Guest Marywanna]

Can't you just drop this now? You and Phaq do not agree,yes we see that. But each of you is entitled to your opinion,right? Oh and you spelled DENIED incorrectly.