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Are They Legally Able To Charge Me?


coold44

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I posted this in a few other threads, but I think it is worth repeating here.

 

The idea of telling people that they are ok if their paperwork is 20+days old and they have a cancelled check is leading a lot of people astray.

 

There are several issues here that work against you.

 

1. LEO has no way of verifying that your paperwork is not bogus. There was a meeting just last month that was posted on here and michigancannabispatients.com relating to a meeting that CPU had with the MSP. From the way I read the minutes, the MSP attorney basically told the CPU folks that they would not accept the paperwork as proof of being registered. Ever heard of photoshop?

 

2. Even is LEO were to accept your paperwork as legit, the way the law is structured, MDCH can not verify to LEO that you paperwork is valid. Due to confidentiality all they are allowed to do is confirm to LEO that your "CARD" is legit by verifying your "Registry #" on the card. They are prohibited from searching their records for LEO by "NAME"

 

The end result is you will be "ok" after they sort out all the paperwork, but in the meantime you might end up in jail or as a minimum be charged with a crime that will eventually be dismissed after a lot of drama and grief.

 

My only conclusion is that "OK" means different things to different people. To the state employee pushing paper it means that it will all work out in the end and maybe they will need to provide someone with an extra form. To the person sitting in the back of LEO's scout car, OK means something entirely different.

 

 

 

 

Program Status Update (6/25/2010): Application Forms and Instructions are available for printing from this website.

 

Program Statistics:

 

37,924 original and renewal applications received since April 6, 2009.

20,548 patient registrations issued.

8,905 caregiver registrations issued.

5,119 applications denied -- most due to incomplete application or missing documentation.

Applications are reviewed within 15 days of receipt. Incomplete applications are denied and applicants are then notified of denial by certified and regular mail.

Complete applications, change forms and reapplications for previous denials are then processed in the date order in which they are received. If a denial letter is not received, then the application is deemed valid. The statute currently allows for a copy of the application submitted to serve as a valid registry identification if the card is not issued within 20 days of its submission to the department. At this time, we are unable to issue valid registry identification cards within the statutory time frame with the resources available to us. Currently staff is issuing registry identification cards for valid applications received at the end of February. We continue to review and revise our processing methods in order to more efficiently process and issue the valid registry cards.

The staff is diligently working to process the applications and is having difficulty responding to all the voicemails left on the Medical Marihuana Registry phone line. We appreciate your patience and ask that applicants refrain from calling to inquire about the status of the application unless your application was submitted prior to early February.

 

http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0,1607,7-132-27417_51869---,00.html

 

this is what the MDCH has posted every day so its not jus the people that posst on here oor how abought this

 

 

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2gkltym0v3d2xj45mluan555))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Initiated-Law-1-of-2008

 

MICHIGAN MEDICAL MARIHUANA ACT (EXCERPT)

Initiated Law 1 of 2008

 

 

333.26429 Failure of department to adopt rules or issue valid registry identification card.

 

(b) If the department fails to issue a valid registry identification card in response to a valid application or renewal submitted pursuant to this act within 20 days of its submission, the registry identification card shall be deemed granted, and a copy of the registry identification application or renewal shall be deemed a valid registry identification card.

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There seems to be a lot of confusion over the original question....

 

"Are they legally able to charge me?"

 

All the answers on here seem to answering the question....

 

"Are they legally able to convict me?

 

The MDCH and the wording of the law related to the MMP says you are good to go after 20 days. You may find this reassuring, but they have not put any mechanism in place for LEO to confirm that the photo copies that you have are real. This is the crux of my previous post.

 

Given that you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of trying to explain your grow to LEO with nothing more than a set of photo copies, you should expect to be arrested and charged. To assume that LEO will take your word that a bunch of photo copies are real is no more realistic than believing that if LEO were to find an ounce in your car he would take your word that it is not yours and you have no idea how it got there.

 

The bottomline to all this is that the MDCH, in an effort to reduce the heat they are taking for their backlog, issued a memo/directive/whatever that is very misleading. Without a way to validate your claim on the spot, it is LEO's std. operating procedure is to arrest you and let the courts sort it out.

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There seems to be a lot of confusion over the original question....

 

"Are they legally able to charge me?"

 

All the answers on here seem to answering the question....

 

"Are they legally able to convict me?

 

The MDCH and the wording of the law related to the MMP says you are good to go after 20 days. You may find this reassuring, but they have not put any mechanism in place for LEO to confirm that the photo copies that you have are real. This is the crux of my previous post.

 

Given that you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of trying to explain your grow to LEO with nothing more than a set of photo copies, you should expect to be arrested and charged. To assume that LEO will take your word that a bunch of photo copies are real is no more realistic than believing that if LEO were to find an ounce in your car he would take your word that it is not yours and you have no idea how it got there.

 

The bottomline to all this is that the MDCH, in an effort to reduce the heat they are taking for their backlog, issued a memo/directive/whatever that is very misleading. Without a way to validate your claim on the spot, it is LEO's std. operating procedure is to arrest you and let the courts sort it out.

 

i think you said it all right their

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To answer your question - Yes!

 

The protection afforded under the Registry Program is not the same as with AD. Protection from arrest goes with the card, and registration is not a requirement.

 

Under the AD you can be arrested. You then go to court to assert your defense. Because of the States failure to product the registration cards in a timely manner, anyone without a card will have to rely on AD.

 

Coold44 may have had the proper paperwork, but he did not have on him. Granted, things may have still gone as they did. He stated that he filled a motion, hopefully it was a Motion to Dismiss.

 

thats right and the AD is solid

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There seems to be a lot of confusion over the original question....

 

"Are they legally able to charge me?"

 

All the answers on here seem to answering the question....

 

"Are they legally able to convict me?

 

The MDCH and the wording of the law related to the MMP says you are good to go after 20 days. You may find this reassuring, but they have not put any mechanism in place for LEO to confirm that the photo copies that you have are real. This is the crux of my previous post.

 

Given that you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of trying to explain your grow to LEO with nothing more than a set of photo copies, you should expect to be arrested and charged. To assume that LEO will take your word that a bunch of photo copies are real is no more realistic than believing that if LEO were to find an ounce in your car he would take your word that it is not yours and you have no idea how it got there.

 

The bottomline to all this is that the MDCH, in an effort to reduce the heat they are taking for their backlog, issued a memo/directive/whatever that is very misleading. Without a way to validate your claim on the spot, it is LEO's std. operating procedure is to arrest you and let the courts sort it out.

 

So what do we do with officers that willfully violate the rights of citizens under this new law?

 

They've had more than a year, almost two, to get it right.

 

http://www.michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/20579-a-proposed-new-law/page__view__findpost__p__180006__fromsearch__1

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First, let me preface this with, I am neither an attorney nor a member of the law enforcement community. I am a registered patient and caregiver.

 

The essence of the MMP is to provide a "registry" that LEO can go to to determine if you are legal. The MDCH pretty much explains right on the application form that even with a card you can be arrested. This is evident in the check box where you give them permission to verify to LEO that your card is legit. To further create legitimacy the card now even has a hologram.

 

The time between your applying and receiving your card has been portrayed as black and white. Yet, if you look at the basic premise of the MMP program it is not. Until you have a card in hand you are not part of the "registry" and the MDCH cannot verify your legal status to LEO. I would be the last one to take LEO's side, but put yourself in their position. You have come upon a situation that is traditionally a felony. The person involved gives you some photocopies that could easily be created with photoshop. And, there is no local, state or fed agency that you can go to to verify their legitimacy. Think of it like a drivers license. LEO "always" verifies your D/L in a traffic stop. Think how it might go if you gave him a photo copy w/o a license # and a photo copy of your check to Sec. of State.

 

While I would agree that we all do not trust LEO, the problem is MDCH. It is bad enough that they are unacceptably behind, but they are compounding the problem by misleading people to believe all is ok after 20 days. "OK" means that MDCH can verify to LEO that you are legal and they know full well that without a card/registry # they can not.

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I want to make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes as this poster and irritate people, so please help me out. What was in this post that deserved two negative reps?

 

I must have missed it, did I get some angry readers over my post? lol That seems to happen to me from time to time. :)

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First, let me preface this with, I am neither an attorney nor a member of the law enforcement community. I am a registered patient and caregiver.

 

The essence of the MMP is to provide a "registry" that LEO can go to to determine if you are legal. The MDCH pretty much explains right on the application form that even with a card you can be arrested. This is evident in the check box where you give them permission to verify to LEO that your card is legit. To further create legitimacy the card now even has a hologram.

 

The time between your applying and receiving your card has been portrayed as black and white. Yet, if you look at the basic premise of the MMP program it is not. Until you have a card in hand you are not part of the "registry" and the MDCH cannot verify your legal status to LEO. I would be the last one to take LEO's side, but put yourself in their position. You have come upon a situation that is traditionally a felony. The person involved gives you some photocopies that could easily be created with photoshop. And, there is no local, state or fed agency that you can go to to verify their legitimacy. Think of it like a drivers license. LEO "always" verifies your D/L in a traffic stop. Think how it might go if you gave him a photo copy w/o a license # and a photo copy of your check to Sec. of State.

 

While I would agree that we all do not trust LEO, the problem is MDCH. It is bad enough that they are unacceptably behind, but they are compounding the problem by misleading people to believe all is ok after 20 days. "OK" means that MDCH can verify to LEO that you are legal and they know full well that without a card/registry # they can not.

 

Oh my God ..

 

You sound like a promo for any leo that hasn't read the law yet.

 

Any idea why we were just in front of congress talking about twenty days?

 

Congress was really pissed that innocent people were being put in jail.

 

The law is very clear. If you have copies of your paperwork and the MDCH has taken more than 20 days, your copy of paperwork serves as your ID card. You are fully registered with only the paperwork.

 

If leo has a hard time with that, they have a problem. It is REQUIRED OF THEM in the LAW that you are not subject to arrest.

 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? THEY ARE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE LAW. Even if they think it is possible you have forged documents, they are required to follow the law.

 

So then .. they might decide they distrust that paperwork .. fine .. but if they are wrong with their suspicion they are breaking the law. So they had better use that mistrust very very carefully.

 

If you have a prescription bottle, do they put you in jail until the drug store opens? How stupid. That logic supports a willful violation of our new law by the police.

 

Take that photo shop crap and put it where the sun don't shine. Your lack of faith in the people is not probable cause to put someone in jail.

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The time between your applying and receiving your card has been portrayed as black and white. Yet, if you look at the basic premise of the MMP program it is not. Until you have a card in hand you are not part of the "registry" and the MDCH cannot verify your legal status to LEO. I would be the last one to take LEO's side, but put yourself in their position. You have come upon a situation that is traditionally a felony. The person involved gives you some photocopies that could easily be created with photoshop. And, there is no local, state or fed agency that you can go to to verify their legitimacy. Think of it like a drivers license. LEO "always" verifies your D/L in a traffic stop. Think how it might go if you gave him a photo copy w/o a license # and a photo copy of your check to Sec. of State.

 

"The time between your applying and receiving your card has been portrayed as black and white."

Indeed it has been. Within the law itself. Your logic applies only if you completely ignore the law itself.

 

"Until you have a card in hand you are not part of the "registry" and the MDCH cannot verify your legal status to LEO."

So what? It is still against the law to arrest a patient after 20 days. How can they tell? That's their problem and it is not supposed to be the patients problem.

 

"You have come upon a situation that is traditionally a felony. "

They've had more than a year to get used to it.

 

Deal with it and stop arresting patients.

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First, let me preface this with, I am neither an attorney nor a member of the law enforcement community. I am a registered patient and caregiver.

 

The essence of the MMP is to provide a "registry" that LEO can go to to determine if you are legal. The MDCH pretty much explains right on the application form that even with a card you can be arrested. This is evident in the check box where you give them permission to verify to LEO that your card is legit. To further create legitimacy the card now even has a hologram.

 

The time between your applying and receiving your card has been portrayed as black and white. Yet, if you look at the basic premise of the MMP program it is not. Until you have a card in hand you are not part of the "registry" and the MDCH cannot verify your legal status to LEO. I would be the last one to take LEO's side, but put yourself in their position. You have come upon a situation that is traditionally a felony. The person involved gives you some photocopies that could easily be created with photoshop. And, there is no local, state or fed agency that you can go to to verify their legitimacy. Think of it like a drivers license. LEO "always" verifies your D/L in a traffic stop. Think how it might go if you gave him a photo copy w/o a license # and a photo copy of your check to Sec. of State.

 

While I would agree that we all do not trust LEO, the problem is MDCH. It is bad enough that they are unacceptably behind, but they are compounding the problem by misleading people to believe all is ok after 20 days. "OK" means that MDCH can verify to LEO that you are legal and they know full well that without a card/registry # they can not.

 

 

Well said.

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Oh my God ..

 

You sound like a promo for any leo that hasn't read the law yet.

 

Any idea why we were just in front of congress talking about twenty days?

 

Congress was really pissed that innocent people were being put in jail.

 

The law is very clear. If you have copies of your paperwork and the MDCH has taken more than 20 days, your copy of paperwork serves as your ID card. You are fully registered with only the paperwork.

 

If leo has a hard time with that, they have a problem. It is REQUIRED OF THEM in the LAW that you are not subject to arrest.

 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? THEY ARE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE LAW. Even if they think it is possible you have forged documents, they are required to follow the law.

 

So then .. they might decide they distrust that paperwork .. fine .. but if they are wrong with their suspicion they are breaking the law. So they had better use that mistrust very very carefully.

 

If you have a prescription bottle, do they put you in jail until the drug store opens? How stupid. That logic supports a willful violation of our new law by the police.

 

Take that photo shop crap and put it where the sun don't shine. Your lack of faith in the people is not probable cause to put someone in jail.

 

What the law may say is up to the legislature. How the law is interpreted is up to the courts. How the law is enforced, my friend, is up to law enforcement.

 

My point is that, as much as we would like to see it all work out to our liking, that's just not real world, and not accepting that can cause some folks some serious grief. People need to undrstand exactly how leo is interpreting and enforcing the law, and that they may expose themselves to arrest, and even conviction. Whether we think it should happen or not.

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What the law may say is up to the legislature. How the law is interpreted is up to the courts. How the law is enforced, my friend, is up to law enforcement.

What the law says was established by the people. The legislature had nothing to do with this law at all.

 

What you are saying is that the people can not really pass laws police are required to follow.

 

This is not a complete police state yet. At least I don't believe it's gotten to that point in Michigan.

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My point is that, as much as we would like to see it all work out to our liking, that's just not real world, and not accepting that can cause some folks some serious grief. People need to undrstand exactly how leo is interpreting and enforcing the law, and that they may expose themselves to arrest, and even conviction. Whether we think it should happen or not.

 

LEO is slowly turning in our direction.

 

There is a transition period of time where some law enforcement officials will be caught on the wrong side of a court order. A judge will tell them they didn't have the right to do what they did.

 

That, in turn, will modify their future actions.

 

It is not completely hopeless. They are required to conform to the new law.

 

It is even possible that leo can violate the law bad enough to wind up in jail themselves.

 

Would you not agree that there has been a change in the way that law enforcement and patients interact?

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What the law may say is up to the legislature. How the law is interpreted is up to the courts. How the law is enforced, my friend, is up to law enforcement.My point is that, as much as we would like to see it all work out to our liking, that's just not real world, and not accepting that can cause some folks some serious grief. People need to undrstand exactly how leo is interpreting and enforcing the law, and that they may expose themselves to arrest, and even conviction. Whether we think it should happen or not.

 

word.

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its not just a photo copy its a photo copy of the check that has a stamp by the STATE OF MI. and is sighned by a rep of the state to cash the check its not like your just handing them a copy of your sighned dr.paper work but also a cashed check now unless im mistaking the state of MI cashing your check is them apoving your app if there is any misconception the LEO that is questioning the paper work can call the MDCH and verify b/c THEY CASHED YOUR CHECK

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I believe that many of the posters here have been been mislead by the MDCH. This is certainly understandable from all outward appearances they would appear to represent the State of Michigan and the law. The reality is that their posturing about the 20 day thing can get you in trouble with LEO. The 20 day thing is designed to distract you from the administrative FUBAR at the MDCH. I would suggest that not only will it distract people from bitching at them, it can cause you to be arrested!

 

First, consider what the actual law states.......

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege... (bold type added)

 

The law does not say anything about possessing photocopies of your application.

 

Now everyone seems to feel that LEO can just call the MDCH and verify your paperwork. The rules created by the MDCH to administer the registry program prohibit them from giving out any info....

 

Rule 333.121 Confidentiality.

Rule 21. (1) Except as provided in subrules (2) and (3) of this rule,

Michigan medical marihuana program information shall be confidential and not

subject to disclosure in any form or manner. Program information includes,

but is not limited to, all of the following:

(a) Applications and supporting information submitted by qualifying

patients.

(b) Information related to a qualifying patient's primary caregiver.

© Names and other identifying information of registry identification

cardholders.

(d) Names and other identifying information of pending applicants and

their primary caregivers.

(2) Names and other identifying information made confidential under

subrule (1) of this rule may only be accessed or released to authorized

employees of the department as necessary to perform official duties of the

department pursuant to the act, including the production of any reports of

non-identifying aggregate data or statistics.

(3) The department shall verify upon a request by law enforcement

personnel whether a registry identification card is valid, without disclosing

more information than is reasonably necessary to verify the authenticity of

the registry identification card.

(4) The department may release information to other persons only upon

receipt of a properly executed release of information signed by all

individuals with legal authority to waive confidentiality regarding that

information, whether a registered qualifying patient, a qualifying patient's

parent or legal guardian, or a qualifying patient's registered primary

caregiver. The release of information shall specify what information the

department is authorized to release and to whom.

(5) Violation of these confidentiality rules may subject an individual to

the penalties provided for under section 6(h)(4) of the act.

 

On the application for your card you indeed may have agreed to give the MDCH permission to "release information" (if you checked the box) as it states, but that release only covers allowing them to verify that the registry id # on your card is legit. This is the wording from the form you completed...

 

Section E: ATTESTATION, SIGNATURE, & DATE: (REQUIRED)

I understand that according to the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act, the department shall verify to law enforcement personnel whether my registry ID card is valid using my registration number only.

By checking this box, I additionally authorize the release of my name and date of birth to law enforcement, to confirm identity, only if law enforcement has provided the Michigan Medical Marihuana Program with my valid registration number

(bold added)

 

With regards to copies of checks, the state deposit stamp is only on the back of the check and it can easily be manipulated in a basic photo editing program. It could even be done with some old fashion cut and paste and a copy machine.

 

Understand I an not shilling for LEO here. What I am trying to communicate is MDCH is misleading you. Per their rules, you are indeed legal after 20 days. However, by the same rules that they quote to make you legal, they are also prevented from verifying your paperwork to LEO.

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The law does not say anything about possessing photocopies of your application.

 

Incorrect. Does this change what you were thinking when you posted that?

 

Here is exactly where it says so in the law:

333.26429 Failure of department to adopt rules or issue valid registry identification card.

 

9. Enforcement of this Act.

 

(b ) If the department fails to issue a valid registry identification card in response to a valid application or renewal submitted pursuant to this act within 20 days of its submission, the registry identification card shall be deemed granted, and a copy of the registry identification application or renewal shall be deemed a valid registry identification card.

 

You are technically right. It doesn't say photocopy. It says copy.

 

The law says the copy of the application IS THE CARD.

 

So then .. here is the real problem.

 

Some members of law enforcement are ignoring the law.

They refuse to obey the law.

And they do so for the purpose of putting sick people in jail.

 

Here is the state web site that was taken from:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%281pngfebfvysxlb2vgulk1i55%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-333-26429

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Reading, then re-reading the law causes me

to ask this Q? :

Why was it left open to; unless we receive

a denial w/in 15 days, consider our copies

to serve as acceptance after 20 days if no card

has been received? Why not send us a MDCH

stamped APPROVED letter to us instead,

to add to our copies? Possibly we could

send in the original application form + an

additional copy for MDCH to stamp either

approved/denied, then send that back to us

within the 15 days??

Heck, I would even send in a sase.

It seems like this would clarify that we

are indeed a registered patient to LEO and

that we're currently waiting on our cards.

Instead of the 15 days and no denial that

clarifies nothing in the eyes of the LE?

Just a thought.

peace

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If it helps, I agree with you that after 20 days you are legal. I disagree with the idea of giving people a false sense of security regarding any interaction with LEO. It is not in their nature to accept documentation for "anything" that they can not verify. And the cache 22 is MDCH is prohibited from verifying anything about someone who does not have an actual card w/ a registry #.

 

I think that we would all agree that by and large we are all paranoid about persecution by LEO on the subject of Medical Marijuana. That said, is it advisable to ignore LEO's standard operation procedure of asking for third party verification?

 

The example I gave earlier of a drivers license seems the most obvious. If LEO asks to see your D/L they never just say cool, just checking to see if you have one, have a nice day! They take the encryped, hologram sealed, photo id and check to see if it is real. To assume that LEO is just going to take your copies and not need to verify that they are real is unrealistic. And, the real problem comes in MDCH's rules that prevent them from verifying that your copies are real.

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Incorrect. Does this change what you were thinking when you posted that?

 

Here is exactly where it says so in the law:

 

 

You are technically right. It doesn't say photocopy. It says copy.

 

The law says the copy of the application IS THE CARD.

 

So then .. here is the real problem.

 

Some members of law enforcement are ignoring the law.

They refuse to obey the law.

And they do so for the purpose of putting sick people in jail.

 

Here is the state web site that was taken from:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%281pngfebfvysxlb2vgulk1i55%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-333-26429

 

100% correct. A copy of the paperwork IS the same as a card after 20 days and the law says so.

 

within 20 days of its submission, the registry identification card shall be deemed granted, and a copy of the registry identification application or renewal shall be deemed a valid registry identification card.

 

When the police are not following this THEY are breaking the law. I don't understand why there are not a bunch of false arrest lawsuits going on right now. If there were 4 or 5 suits going on there would be no more arrest with paperwork until this was sorted out.

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You note your on probation "for 2 weeks now" so, obviously, you plead guilty to something to be placed on probation.

Based on your plea or no contest plea, the Court convicted you -- if you have a card, why would you do such a thing?

If your a medical MJ patient, again, why would you plead and admit guilt to something you say your not guilty of?

 

Guilty or no contest plea= End of case.

 

You MUST fight to win ! Never never, never plea -- always demand jury trial ( in writing and file with Court clerk and keep a date stamped copy for your records, atty should do this for you)!

 

A JURY DEMAND will make them think twice about going to trial. If your innocent, a trial is what you want.

Just keep saying JURY TRIAL.

 

So many people nowadays are getting, or applying, for registry card AFTER they have problems with LEO. Does not work that way

(although you certainly have the affirmative defense to use no matter what)

The card protects from, and one in possession of it, is immune from arrest for marijuana use, possession, transporting--

APPLY AND GET THE CARD BEFORE you carry and MMJ, and you will be fine.

 

 

M

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To assume that LEO is just going to take your copies and not need to verify that they are real is unrealistic.

I agree with you. I have expected, and have watched, police ignore what is expected of them in the law.

 

I expect police to ignore the law because they are human and therefore beings that have habits.

 

There is an unlearning process that they have to go through.

 

There are things that used to be legal for them to do that are no longer legal.

 

At this point, my concern is for all of those people that should not have been convicted.

People that, by way of plea bargain, have criminal records that should not have.

 

Every marijuana conviction in Michigan since 12/4/2009 is in question.

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