Removing Sun Leaves During Flower... Opinion?

[Guest Mr_smith]

Why don't you all just chill the phuck out..

It's really not that serious..

[K B]

I'm sry didn't bother to read more than the first few posts on page one and decided to just give my opinoin..IMO..plucking leaves is a rediculous myth and should never be done indoors or out...your leaves are what create energy for the plant EVERY PLANT on the planet, do you even notice that the larger yourplant gets the faster it grows? this is due to putting out more leaves..Large fan leaves are not produced to "shade" the plant and ther for should not be removed. photosynthesis as learned in 3rd grade, is what turn's light into energy for the plant..basicly the more you take off the harder it is for the plant to work..you want your plant to work hard for you producing buds..not stressing it out by cutting it's engines out.

 

This myth is from the 70's from hippies that didn't kno what they were doing. This shows thru history as ppl learned what the plant needed and broke cultivation down to a science. The reson there wasn't huge nugs of kind bud back then was a result of poor gentics and poor cultivation technique which you can still see today in places like mexico, africa, india, and afganistan..where the ppl know little of advanced cultivation and plants seeds and nute with ashes from a fire..

 

I grow very large plant outdoors, and decent sized indoors..I would never "shade leaf" my plant..of course your buds look 20% bigger with no large leaves crowding them!, I major in cannabis horticulture, botany, and mycology...And I can tell you I'm 100% backed by science on this one

 

and the picture is from a week ago I harvest LBS not OZ's

 

6.5ft tall x 4ft wide

[Guest Mr_smith]

You didnt miss much, just a bunch of E-fighting

[K B]

hey THC farmer, we're growing bud not leaf. this technique will give you more bud spots, that's a fact. so it's not for lollipopping. if you scrog or veg it out a long time it's going to produce lots of bud sites and lots of light exposure to those budspots. fact is though, removing fan leafs will cause stress on your plants so be prepared to flower longer than normal for that strain. that's why i'm on the fences with this one, is it worth the stress and added weeks to a cycle for the difference in yield?

 

just look at that scrog on ICMag. that's proof right there.

 

from what i read the best technique seems to be remove in veg one time, twice in flower at 20 and 45 days.

 

now looking back and seeing post like this I can help but laugh!..nothing you stated is fact here bud..any plant when left alone (no leaves removed) to flower further than its recomended time i.e 10 weeks instead of 8...will allow those little buds on the bottom to fill out it in no way shape or form will ever "create" more bud sites that is left to the genetics of the plant...yu can create more bud sites by LST or supper cropping but all this does is simply push a new shoot (branch for those under ed) thus creating another place for flowers to form..Also better science of cannabis for you! the LARGER fan leaves contian sugars essential to te plant in the last 2 weeks of flowering when your plant is starved of nutes these are the sugars your plants need to produce larger healthier buds thus being the 2nd maybe 3rd reason theres no wayyour gettig 20% extra..maybe 20% less..

 

refinment in your technique from one grow to the next I can see that, That actualy should happen but not by detroying the plant itself.

 

I'm not attacking you personaly just the ignorace of the information givin to you..and maybe a little bit of you believing it

[K B]

hahah E-FIGHT!!!!...ppl are strage.. WORDS MAKE ME ANGRY!!

[Guest Mr_smith]

"I totally won this arguement on a forum earlier" ~ One statement that will never get you laid...

[K B]

lol..yep very true..Im on here just making my rounds to either help someone or get ahold of good genetics that pop up in underground forums...other than that mybe make a few ppl look stupid...lol..

 

this is pretty much whats wrong with the cannabis culture in michigan everyoneis mis informed and there all muffin makers and cant be wrong..so instead of taking good knowledgable advice from someone that knows what there doing ...they'll fight for there BS to the end..

 

I could care less except for its retards like these that give MMJ a bad name..dont follow the rules..or just plain act like an donkey

[THC-Farmer]

mother nature doesn't grow hydroponics, doesn't use light rails, doesn't train her plants, or manipulate the light cycles to our needs. we do this to yield more, maxing out our resources. <b>what we are doing inside is not as mother nature intended.</b> that argument can't be brought up in this discussion.

 

i'm not hating on mother nature or organic growers, i actually prefer outdoor buds, for potency, taste is about the same, maybe slightly better indoors. but i can't really grow my favorite strains outside without a greenhouse. i don't have one yet.

 

I want to step in for a minute and just say something.

 

Here's the deal. You make very valid points... However, you have to remember something, and it's even more important to fully understand this when cultivating indoors than it is outdoors.

 

Plants are dynamically "governed" by nature. Nothing you or I do will change what a plants genetics instinctively instruct the plant to do during environmental discrepencies.

 

Indoor cultivation is like a "nature supplement", if you will. The only reason any of us cultivate indoors is to escape the problems or potential problems cultivating outdoors presents to us. Be it Law Enforcement, Climate changes, Locational disadvantage, whatever the case may be we all know in the absence of all those inhibiting factors we would be cultivating outdoors, under the sun, in the soil. And we all know why. Nature does it the best... We are all at the mercy of nature. To think or believe otherwise is profoundly ignorant.

 

My point is though, it helps to look at it that way to better understand the needs and capabilities of the plant itsself. You're trying to provide exactly what nature would provide the plant. Nothing more, nothing less. Even in hydroponic cultivation, you have to provide everything nature would provide (minus the soil, so in essence anyway it's the same). There is no way around it.

 

No matter how much science or theoretical "enhancements" you throw at a grow operation, you're not going to out do nature.

 

In fact, when you utilize the science available to us and get down to the nitty gritty, look at the plant as an organism and study how it constructs it's basic structure you start to understand how important every little aspect of that structure is to that plant.

 

The current scientific information available to us pertaining to photosynthesis, plant structure, and plant growth in general literally PROVES exactly the opposite through a mere basic understanding of the whole photosynthetic process...

 

It's simple, the more leaves you rip off before bloom or during bloom, the less overall growth the plant will be able to achieve and a reduced yield is the outcome. The more leaves the plant has on it, the more capable it is, the more overall growth it will present and the larger the yield will be...

 

The fact of the matter is a reduction in photosynthesis equals a reduction in growth. A reduction in growth equals a reduction in yield. How extreme the reduction in growth is obviously varies based on how much of a reduction in photosynthesis there is. This logic holds true in all photo-sensitive plant life.

 

Regardless of how much light is available; Regardless of all the other variables; The more leaves the plant has, the better off it is.

 

If the leaves aren't able to photosynthesize (for instance, if they aren't getting enough light) they will wither and die... So why not let the individual leaves decide if they are getting enough light or not?

 

It's really not a hard concept to grasp a hold of. Not to mention it reduces your work load per crop by not having to sift through all your plants, ripping leaves off hoping and praying for a bigger yield... You'd be better off just growing some bigger plants...

 

But I suppose until HARDCORE evidence is thrown in thier face, some people just won't let common sense rule this one out...

 

And by the way, the only TRUE way to INCREASE your yield per plant, is to grow bigger plants... Period...

[THC-Farmer]

I'm sry didn't bother to read more than the first few posts on page one and decided to just give my opinoin..IMO..plucking leaves is a rediculous myth and should never be done indoors or out...your leaves are what create energy for the plant EVERY PLANT on the planet, do you even notice that the larger yourplant gets the faster it grows? this is due to putting out more leaves..Large fan leaves are not produced to "shade" the plant and ther for should not be removed. photosynthesis as learned in 3rd grade, is what turn's light into energy for the plant..basicly the more you take off the harder it is for the plant to work..you want your plant to work hard for you producing buds..not stressing it out by cutting it's engines out.

 

This myth is from the 70's from hippies that didn't kno what they were doing. This shows thru history as ppl learned what the plant needed and broke cultivation down to a science. The reson there wasn't huge nugs of kind bud back then was a result of poor gentics and poor cultivation technique which you can still see today in places like mexico, africa, india, and afganistan..where the ppl know little of advanced cultivation and plants seeds and nute with ashes from a fire..

 

I grow very large plant outdoors, and decent sized indoors..I would never "shade leaf" my plant..of course your buds look 20% bigger with no large leaves crowding them!, I major in cannabis horticulture, botany, and mycology...And I can tell you I'm 100% backed by science on this one

 

and the picture is from a week ago I harvest LBS not OZ's

 

6.5ft tall x 4ft wide

 

Thanks for your post! I agree whole heartedly! Great post!

 

And yes, you are indeed backed by science on this one. Everyone is.

 

My first post in this thread explains the process as much as it should need to be explained...

 

Ignorance is bliss I suppose...

[vender]

I love all this. All your degrees and reading and education doesnt mean shiit when it comes to life. Until you do some experimenting of your own it is not possible to say %100 about anything. I am looking for facts from ppl who have tried removing leaves. When you do some pruning IT DOES impart its energy into the growth of the flower / fruit. Tomato gardeners have been doing it for decades. Mother nature ppl dont want to know what I do with syringes and plants. You would freak. I will be doing a side by side of this coming up. If others do a side by side we could end this and have a nice data set.

 

Mother nature is way over rated. Humans without a doubt can make plants better. Science has done some amazing things with plants, like creating a tobacco with star fish DNA to create a AIDS drug that can be smoked. So stop with the mother nature doesnt need our help crap.

IMO

[Sledge]

It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature!

[THC-Farmer]

When you do some pruning IT DOES impart its energy into the growth of the flower / fruit. Tomato gardeners have been doing it for decades. Mother nature ppl dont want to know what I do with syringes and plants. You would freak.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. There is absolutely no evidence, scientific or otherwise, that would lead anyone to believe this is true...

 

While very similar, tomato plants are vastly different from a cannabis plant. Comparing the two is literally worse than comparing apples to oranges.

 

Cannabis is NOT a fruit nor is it a vegetable. It's an 'angiospermae' annual flowering plant. It's a flower... A completely different species of plant.

 

I will be doing a side by side of this coming up. If others do a side by side we could end this and have a nice data set.

 

Excellent. I will be looking forward to this big time!

 

Personally, I've already done the side by side testing on this subject. I did it many years ago when I was with the OverGrow community. Many people did. It was actually documented and proven to be a completely false theory. It's a dam shame that all the data and test results compiled on that site was destroyed, for the most part. There was by far more information on that single site than there is today on the multitude of forums and cultivation sites across the entire internet... That's probably the reason the DEA shut it down.

 

During my tests the plant that was pruned was always weeks behind the control plant. The pruned plant also yielded significantly less, even when left to flower longer, it still yielded less. On every single side by side test I've seen, even with varying degrees of pruning, the pruned plant always performed worse. No I don't have any data pertaining to my testing. Just like my SunPulse test, I did it for my own knowledge at the time. I wasn't into exposing myself at the time and I didn't care about anyone elses yield. Therefor I did my testing solely for my own personal gain and understanding.

 

Do you honestly think I would post such a strong opinion based on just a hunch? C'mon now...

 

I'll be looking forward to seeing your side by side test brotha! Don't let us down now! When do you think you'll be getting a start on this?

 

Mother nature is way over rated. Humans without a doubt can make plants better.

 

To a certain extent, yes. Don't get the wrong idea here. I'm not doubting Human inginuity or intelligence. It's just that, the current scientific information doesn't support your theory. Nor does the non-scientific tests already done on it. Not all plants will do what YOU want them to do.

 

And for the record, nature is NOT over rated... Tell that to all the Hurricane, Tornado, Earthquake and Volcano victems...

[Guest Wayne]

Utilizing sunlight as opposed to artificial is almost a night and day thing. Sunlight is equal from the top of the plant to the bottom. Artificial light has significant loss at just a foot or two. Was gifted a 2 foot plant just prior to summer solstice that was grown under artificial. The difference just weeks later under sunlight is amazing. Green, full, with some natural splitting and just beginning to flower. Take longer to finish on a sun cycle, but I can't wait for the results.

[vender]

THC-farmer thats what I am looking for. Good job. I will still do my experiment but it sounds like you did a good study. Thanks +rep. I should be starting my study in about a week. "They" did do a study on removing leaves from tomatoes and the data shows a sweeter larger fruit. I will google to find it. Right now I am looking at the effects of injections. Trying a mix of sugars and milk, I use milk on my pumpkins with great results. Now dont go and try this I dont want to be responsible for your plants dieing.

[vender]

The study was done by Purdue showing that you get larger but fewer fruit. Anyway you can read about it at

 

http://www.grow-tomato-sauce.com/pruning.html

[THC-Farmer]

Oh yea man, I've done multiple studies on the effects of pruning Cannabis...

 

My favorite test was the one I did on photosynthesis and flower production.

 

Here's what I did -

 

I took two plants out of a crop and set them up equal distance under the light. All other factors were equal; Both were clones from the same plant, container size, soil, nutrient solution, everything was pretty accurate, as accurate as it can get really... The control plant was not trimmed, pruned or trained in any way.

 

Both plants were left alone during vegetative phase. They both grew at the same rate and were shockingly identical.

 

What I did next may seem extreme but it proves a very valid point.

 

Next, both plants were forced into bloom phase. They were both left to begin blooming and establish an equal amount of flower production.

 

Around early mid-bloom phase the variable plant was then stripped of it's leaves. All of them. Even the little single bladed leaves poking out from between the flower structure. What was left was nothing but the flowers. Nice big buds on all the branches...

 

The control plant was left alone.

 

The hypothesis - find out if the flowers could or would grow on thier own without the leaves and if there was any benefit to having more light getting to the buds themselves.

 

The plant with the stripped leaves died within 5 days of having it's leaves stripped.

 

The control plant flourished and lived a fruitful life.

 

What this proved to me, beyond all reasonable doubt, was that no matter how much light is being cast on the plant, or how deep it penetrates to the lower leaves the flowers (buds) themselves do not use the light to grow. Based on this result one could also conclude that a reduction in leaves, in any amount, will have this same affect, but will vary in severity.

 

My next test after that one was completely identical. Except on the variable plant, instead of ripping ALL the leaves off, I only ripped off half of them. I literally counted every single leaf and divided it in half.

 

The result - The control plant flourished. The variable plants growth was severely stunted offsetting it weeks behind the control plant and the overall yield when it was finished was sadly reduced. I don't recall the actual numbers of the yields but I do remember it was very poor...

 

Now I also did a number of tests with pruning during the vegetative phase.

 

All my results during those tests were the same with varying severity. All the variable plants had a reduction in growth rate and a reduction in overall yield.

 

This is why my opinion is so strongly set on leaving all the leaves on the plant. The plant will grow into it's environment, regardless of the amount of light it's given. If it can't continue to grow because there is a lack of light, the portions of the plant that are too far from the light or blocked from the light, simply won't... If a leaf isn't able to photosynthesize, it will wither, die, and fall off. Therein is how the plant will "plateau" based on it's environment.

 

The more logical methodology to maximizing your environmental capabilities is by bending and training the plant so you can get more of the plant itsself closer to the effective range of the light. You don't need to remove leaves to expose more of the plant to light or anything of the kind. Doing so only inhibits the growth of the plant. It's basically a counterproductive situation.

[boroboro]

Now That was an excellent post, THC-Farmer, + rep to you. And I've been disagreeing with you all along. I'm perfectly willing to change my mind when real evidence comes along like this.

 

It would be silly for me to respond to this with some hypothesis like "well, I'm dealing with a leafy strain and you weren't, it's just strain-to-strain variation" or "well, leaves/leaf activity were the bottleneck in your plants' growth, but not in mine". I won't even try to say anything like that without a real side-by-side test like you describe above.

 

Again, kudos to you, and I hope that quiets down this thread ...

[Grow Thread]

i think ive given THC about 50 +reps already over the past couple months.........................

 

make it 51

[vender]

Farmer when you removed during veg did the plant bush out / stunt the growth. I would like shorter bushier plants and was going to remove some during veg to get smaller node spaces and more bush like. Any thoughts?

[reddy]

i didn't read all that farmer but thanks for putting thought and time into it. i'll believe what i choose to believe thank you. i still haven't made my mind up but it has been a good discussion so far....

 

 

 

some comments posted on this thread in the last few days....it's worth reading more https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=23

 

I'm chopping tomorrow, which will be day 55. My girls are all finishing erlier than normal as well, and I think it is due to defoliation.

 

Defoliation has many advantages. For me, the lack of fan leaves gives much better air flow and ventilation, reducing chances of mold and mildew. It keeps the room from getting crammed too tightly with plants, or, looked at another way, it allows me to put more/bigger plants in the same area.

 

It allows light to get to all the lower growth, making ALL the buds usable/no larf.

 

I will be even more aggressive in the future, as I am sure that defoliating has increased my yields. I think I will do better than my last run, with plants half as big.

puff adder

 

 

"She is going to get trimmed again in the next few days. This method has definitely been improving my results and I will continue to agressively remove fan leaves until I find the "sweet spot"

 

My yield has improved already from the last run and there's still 30 days to go.

 

 

THE IMPORTANCE OF FAN LEAVES HAS BEEN WAY OVERSTATED!

 

MARLO

[THC-Farmer]

Farmer when you removed during veg did the plant bush out / stunt the growth. I would like shorter bushier plants and was going to remove some during veg to get smaller node spaces and more bush like. Any thoughts?

 

The growth stunted on all plants that were defoliated... The more leaves taken off, the longer it took the plant to recover. The plant structure really didn't change much from the control. The variable plants always grew in with the same structure as they had before defoliation.

 

If you want short bushy plants you could look into LST (low stress training)... You could also top them. LST will undoubtedly provide a bigger yield though...

 

It would also help to ensure you have more blue output in your light spectrum during vegetative phase. Metal Halides tend to be the best source of ight for vegetative phase. Either that or 6500K fluorescents. High Output T5s or CFLs work well for vegetative growth. When the light spectrum supplied to the plants has more blue in it the plants cellular structure changes. It actually stimulates the cells to construct themselves in a smaller more concentrated mannar, thus causing the plant to grow slightly more compact.

 

A combonation of these methods would be ideal for a height restricted garden.

 

Granted, you will take a significant yield reduction having smaller plants... The advantage to this is you can have more of them though... It's personal preference really.

[dlovas]

I'm sorry but I COMPLETELY disagree with the general concensus on this topic. It just doesn't make any sense at all!

 

I do not recommend removing ANY fan leaves during ANY phase of the plants growth.

 

Doing so only inhibits the plants growth. This is scientific fact... Not my opinion.

 

Plants use different types of chlorophyll in the leaves to process photo-active light along with the nutrients and fluid absorbed through the roots to produce cellular growth. No where else on the plant are the different types of chlorophyll required to complete this process present. They can only be found in the leaves. The chlorophyll inside the stalks and calyxs are merely the cellular "building blocks" if you will. They can be considered the "structural cells". These cells make up the majority of the plants structure but do little (basically nothing) to aid in energy production and cellular growth. These cells are the cells created by the different types of chlorophyll cells in the leaves and the nutrients absorbed through the roots.

 

The leaves can basically be considered the "stomach" of a plant. They process the light and food to create growth. No where else on the plant does this happen. If you remove the plants ability to carry out this process, in any amount, it will inhibit the plants growth. This can easily be proved by removing ALL of the leaves from the plant. The coinciding result of this is death.

 

The calyxs and stalks of the plant do not process photo-active light energy. Only the leaves carry out that process. So ensuring that the "buds" get more light does absolutely nothing. That's kind of like saying, if you rip off all the leaves on a Rose bush but leave the flowers on it, the flowers will get bigger because they get more light... It simply doesn't make sense and is technically biologically impossible. Cannabis is merely an annual flower. The calyxs (flowers, buds) require the leaves and roots to create the food for the cellular growth to take place.

 

Also, as a plant grows, the leaves and root system grow together in unison. They support eachother in a required methodology to continue growing. If you remove any amount of the leaves the plants growth will slow as it becomes "aware" that food production has become unbalanced. What happens is simple, it grows more leaves to compensate and catch up to the root system. This reaction however, halts all the other growth as the plant focuses it's energy to create more leaves so it can regain it's ability to sustain itsself and resume normal growth. Obviously how severe this process affects the plants overall growth depends solely on how much leaf matter is removed.

 

I'm sorry but pruning healthy leaves off your plant just doesn't seem like a good idea when you look at the science of how a plant functions... Not to mention there is absolutely zero SCIENTIFIC evidence that removing leaves to expose "bud sites" to more light increases thier size or wieght. All the current scientific information suggests exactly the opposite...

THC I DO CONCUR..hahaa....I only clip leaves when they burn the Nitrogen out and or turn completely yellow. At this p0oint if they are yellow there is not light synthesis happening so it is dead weight. I let Nature do its thing and only interven if a plant needs help. Which is almost never because my girls are SO SO HAPPY...lol...SO SO PRETTY..!!<<<

[vender]

Just an update. Although the buds look beautiful, lots of resin trics.. The plant does not. It seems I either have a Calcium deficiency or the plant is sucking the nitrogen from the sugar leaves. The leaves close to the buds are browning. I will post some photos later. I did give it Cal/Mag about a week ago when I first started seeing the signs.

[vender]

Problem. not sure if its a calcium problem or the fact I stripped the leaves. Any ideas?

Thanks

 

THC-Farmer HELP!

[vender]

Bump for help.