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Has Anybody Else Dealt With This?


casperthegoat

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if u are there caregiver u can grow for them so if u are growing for them whose plants do u think they are with out a pat u could not grow them in the first place

 

Off topic, but no they don't belong to the patient, unless the patient provided the original genetics. Search this site as this topic has been done repeatedly.

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Yeah were not all a-holes like you say , and maybe they did not like your meds and than you might not have had meds for seven months or more. And had to rely on what ever they could find on street like a few Pts have to do. There are some shifty folks out there . So go's my rant ... P.S. I do not know what or why but some times it is not all the PT'S fault. Grow for your self if you can...

its called COMMUNICATION !! Im a caregiver/pateint and it took me this long to fill all my spots. Becouse like i said communicating getting to no each other is the key.. Ive made five new friends out of my pateints and they are very pleased. Getting to no there needs would have solved alot of caregivers problems. Most think i got a pateint now im going to be making some money.thats not the case.i dont charge a start up fee. So if a pateint leaves. He/she does not get the 12 plants enless they pay for the time i have into them. This was talked about in the beginning when we spent time and hungout and communicated with the pateint.If they do not want to pay i give them twelve clones and i will help get them to there new home but most real caregivers wont take twelve plants that did not start in there home in fear of pest or diesese.COMMUNICXATE PROBLEMS WOULD ALL BE SOLVED. This isnt a money making job you can get by anymore then that and your ripping off the pateints.Im on disability and this works good for me with my parkinsons.I didnt get in it for money i got into this to make medical marijuana.Just like they make pills in a clean sterial enviroment. Have fun and COMMUNICATE.

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if u are there caregiver u can grow for them so if u are growing for them whose plants do u think they are with out a pat u could not grow them in the first place

 

Please quote to me where it says that in the law.

 

Here's the law. Please find it for me:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28s0tr3z55ve1jk555ktgfu1au%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-Initiated-Law-1-of-2008

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Yep, there is no clarification of ownership of the plants in the law.

 

I think much of the confusion is coming from the "Application form for registry identification card", as it clearly states in Section C "PERSON ALLOWED TO POSSESS PATIENT'S MARIHUANA PLANTS".

 

Perhaps this needs to be addressed with MDCH?

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Yep, there is no clarification of ownership of the plants in the law.

 

I think much of the confusion is coming from the "Application form for registry identification card", as it clearly states in Section C "PERSON ALLOWED TO POSSESS PATIENT'S MARIHUANA PLANTS".

 

Perhaps this needs to be addressed with MDCH?

 

Right its not in the law

 

I just suggested it as an option if they didnt get another patient and their former patient wanted to grow... you got some veg plants...why not just givem to them...or get compensated... and then give em to them

 

No use destroying your own work and the plants could help someone...why not

 

Yep ...absolutely no plant ownership...its not in the law so MDCH cant do anything to address it in the rules...it was in the rules...which had to be changed to comply with the law... which is what people remember and keep bringing up

 

Not sure how many times we've been around the block on that one but...a few :D

 

Anyway...no worries

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Please quote that from the law. I don't believe it exists within the law itself.

 

I believe the case for that has to be made by way of pasting together several small pieces of the law and then making some assumptions. No direct statement about this topic exists within the law.

 

Here is the location of the law to double check for yourself:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28s0tr3z55ve1jk555ktgfu1au%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-Initiated-Law-1-of-2008

 

You're right PB. However, there is no provision within the law that states the plants belong to the patient. Possession is 90% of the law. In my opinion, if a patient quits my care, then they have an option. They can either buy their plants from me or they can sue me. Good luck with the latter

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Please quote to me where it says that in the law.

 

Here's the law. Please find it for me:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28s0tr3z55ve1jk555ktgfu1au%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-Initiated-Law-1-of-2008

of corse it dose not say that its common cents with out a pat a caregiver wont be able to grow anything where in the does it say that the caregiver owens the plants he/she is growing for the pat?

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Off topic, but no they don't belong to the patient, unless the patient provided the original genetics. Search this site as this topic has been done repeatedly.

as a patient u can grow your own 12 plants so whos plants are thay yours ...right so if u have a caregiver and he/she gows for u then whos plants are they...yours too right make cents

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as a patient u can grow your own 12 plants so whos plants are thay yours ...right so if u have a caregiver and he/she gows for u then whos plants are they...yours too right make cents

 

and

 

of corse it dose not say that its common cents with out a pat a caregiver wont be able to grow anything where in the does it say that the caregiver owens the plants he/she is growing for the pat?

 

OK .. so you build your assumptions into the law. I get it.

 

You think that is should say that so it DOES say that.

 

Well I think dispensaries should be in the law.

And I think I should be able to grow 10,000 plants as long as it's for medical purposes.

And I think it should be very clear that researchers at Universities should be able to work with as much marijuana as they can

And I think that testing labs should be able to have as much marijuana on hand as they wish as long as it's for testing only.

 

There's a LOT of things that should be in plain English in the law .. but they ain't ..

 

So if you wish to change the law .. work for it. Don't try to achieve your goals through propaganda.

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OK .. so you build your assumptions into the law. I get it.

 

You think that is should say that so it DOES say that.

 

Well I think dispensaries should be in the law.

And I think I should be able to grow 10,000 plants as long as it's for medical purposes.

And I think it should be very clear that researchers at Universities should be able to work with as much marijuana as they can

And I think that testing labs should be able to have as much marijuana on hand as they wish as long as it's for testing only.

 

There's a LOT of things that should be in plain English in the law .. but they ain't ..

 

So if you wish to change the law .. work for it. Don't try to achieve your goals through propaganda.

what does any of that mean this is not assumptions nor propaganda its plane old common cents.

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Weve had this debate 100 times

 

No one owns the plants

 

AS a caregiver you have the right to cultivate up to 12 per patient

 

And be compensated by the patient...

 

That's about it...really that's it

 

If a patient drops the caregiver...they cant grow those 12 anymore

 

Unless the patient is gonna grow them they really cant even legally recieve them because they dont have plant possesion rights on their card

 

Even if they do change to grow their own...caregiver has a right to be compensated

 

That is the actual law...and how it works

 

I think it would be nice just to hand em over once they change especially in veg...It depends on the circumstances...but they arent required to do that...and are well within the law to get something for their efforts...

 

Look at this way.. you dont buy, or be compensated for something that you own...you just dont buy your own stuff!...That's because the patient doesnt own them...no one owns them!...The caregiver can be compensated for growing them and producing medicine

 

ANyway...that's how it works :D

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I look at it this way both caregiver and patient have a right to take there partnerships in any direction they choose but marijuana is a timed art and all timing should be taken into account and coordinated together for a smooth transition anything else is unacceptable.

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what does any of that mean this is not assumptions nor propaganda its plane old common cents.

 

As are all of the things that I listed.

 

Isn't it common sense that medical researchers explore the potentials of these amazing compounds? We haven't been able to work with them since 1937!

 

If you looked at it within the context of the AD section of the law, it would be reasonable to have 10,000 plants for a medical research and production facility. And the AD section of the law says a "reasonable" amount. So I could try to turn that into a new pharmaceutical company!

 

All of the things that I listed would have been very nice to have been very clearly spelled out in the law. But they were not. You have to work at them to get them to fit.

 

The same is true about who owns the plants. It is not clearly spelled out in the law. You have to build an assumption based on a snip here and a snip there. Same as all of the other things I listed. A snip here and there and yes, you can build up a case.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh, I wanted to add I encourage my patients to eventually grow their own. Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime!

 

I do agree, the way your patient handled this was less than ideal.

 

There are good patients and bad patients, good caregivers and bad caregivers. Not everyone will get along with everyone. Find the people that you click with. I've rejected many patients based on incompatible ideals.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK after reading all of your responses to his rant about how his inconsiderate patient left him high and dry.......with overages that could cost him more then giving away a few bucks in plants! not once did i hear any constructive advice like: with any patient you get you should have a written contract( as i have with all my patients) that protect you from when these things happen. it also protects the patient from so called caregivers that get patients and then disappear with the meds to never be heard from again. i suggest that u make one of these up on ur home computer its fairly easy and be neutral when making it so that its not all one sided for you to benefit and not them. and for those of you who feel bright enough to respond to this don't be dumb yes it is still federally illegal but as far as Michigan is concerned a signed written contract for service will still be upheld in court...so for example with this patient, if you would have had a contract that stated he or she needed to give you a 30 day written notice before changing caregivers or they would be financially penalized you could have civilly sued them for breach of contract and hence got $ for what u put into it and then some depending on the amount you put in your contract. and don't be silly and put sum thing like $5000 for breach, a judge will laugh at you and throw you out.....so be smart caregivers follow the law and run it like a biz not sum corner deal trying get over on johnny law....lol well have at it everyone:)

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Those plants belong to the patient that dropped you...

 

LOL... Please show where in the law it says the plants belong to the patient. If that is the case then why arent they in his/her posession? Unless the patient bought and paid for everything including gentics, equipment, nutrients and EVERYTHING else required to grow...and reimbursed for the caregivers time tending them... I cant possibly see how the plants belong to the patient. Please correct me if I am wrong and make sure to post the section of the law that says this.

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Those plants belong to the patient that dropped you...

 

Flat out not true, unless the patient supplied the plants to begin with. All the patient did was authorize the caregiver to perform a service on their behalf. If the patient came to the table with nothing but the authorization, than the leave with nothing but the authorization.

 

Think of it this way... Suppose you own an undeveloped property and have authorization to construct a structure on it, so you hire a builder/contractor to handle the construction. So...the builder gets halfway through the construction and you decide..."you know what, I want to build this myself." Do the materials the builders used (wood, nails, cement, etc.) and the structure built to date magically become yours then? Or does the builder have the right to repossess his materials and/or be compensated for the investment so far?

 

I'd have neg repped you for that post because it has NO basis in reality, the MMMA, or common law, but due to your role as staff I can't.

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While the law does not declare who owns the plants, the form everybody has filled out surely does. The title of Section C, asks who will possess the "patient's plants".

 

This may or may not be a mistake made by the MDCH when designing the form, and perhaps needs to be addressed. Perhaps there is wiggle room in the semantics of the word "possess" (ownership or control?), but the term "patient's plants" seems to define that role.

 

I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

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§ Primary Caregivers - [section 4(e)]"Primary caregiver" means a person who is at least 21 years old and who has agreed to assist with a patient's medical use of marihuana. A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marijuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.

 

(10) "Medical use" means the acquisition, possession, cultivation,

manufacture, use, internal possession, delivery, transfer, or transportation

of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the administration of marihuana to

treat or alleviate a registered qualifying patient's debilitating medical

condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition so to assist the plants have no owner not the patients or caregiver the way i read it

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if you did not have a patient... you could not be a caergiver people should not have caregivers and grow there own meds but if they cant then a caregiver shold charge them up front for the start up cost.some 500 to 1000$ before they ever get started then whos plants would they be then

 

That is my point right there...If the patient paid for the start up cost as well as providing gentetics and EVERYTHING else required to grow the plants, and reimbursed the caregiver for their time then I might be convinced that the plants belong to the patient. Short of that...the plants belong to whoever is in possession of them. Technically speaking though...the plants dont BELONG to anyone, except mother nature of course.

 

You can still be a caregiver without other patients if you yourself are a patient and grow for yourself. For example...say someone is their own caregiver and also has the rights to grow for two other patients. If one person decides to drop you that doesnt mean that you have to stop growing, you just lose 12 plants off of your count. In my personal experience I do not grow 12 plants for each of my patients. I grow enough to be able to keep a constant supply for each of my patients without having to come close to my limit. This is easily done by acheiving a perpetual harvest.

 

I agree with you 100% that everyone should grow their own meds...especially those who like to complain about prices. If you are unhappy with what a caregiver charges for their services, and dont want to pay street prices from someone else, then the best thing you can do for yourself is to grow your own medicine because then you have full control over everything. The feeling of being self sufficient and able to treat yourself with medicine that you grew personally is awesome and should be experienced by everyone!

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I'd have neg repped you for that post because it has NO basis in reality, the MMMA, or common law, but due to your role as staff I can't.

 

I think it is bs that you can not negetive rep a staff member or moderator but they can neg rep you...How come they get a free pass on anything they say but if you say something they disagree with you get knocked down in rep points?

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