Ccw Laws

[Dr. Bob]

CCW and MMJ

 

One point to consider is the leverage you give LEO when you pack a pistol/firearm or even have one at your grow site. An arrest, justified or not, is just the beginning. Simple possession is a relatively benign charge, and folks are much more inclined to fight it. If you have a weapon that is an automatic 2 year prison sentence, that gives LEO MUCH more leverage over you to make you cope a plea. My advice to my patients is to NOT have a weapon anywhere you have MMJ. Again, I am not a lawyer, but this came from one and it seems like pretty good advice. Just putting it out there.

 

Dr. Bob

[Wayne'sWorld]

Round and round we go. Feel your going to be in a life threatening situation that requires utilization of a firearm to save your life? Rather be dead than incarcerated and/or destitude as a result of criminal/civil prosecution? Good for you! Common sense people. If your gonna consume on the road, keep your cannabis on the dashboard, and brag to the cop that your a MM patient? Leave the gun home.

[The Digital Nomad]

CCW and MMJ

 

One point to consider is the leverage you give LEO when you pack a pistol/firearm or even have one at your grow site. An arrest, justified or not, is just the beginning. Simple possession is a relatively benign charge, and folks are much more inclined to fight it. If you have a weapon that is an automatic 2 year prison sentence, that gives LEO MUCH more leverage over you to make you cope a plea. My advice to my patients is to NOT have a weapon anywhere you have MMJ. Again, I am not a lawyer, but this came from one and it seems like pretty good advice. Just putting it out there.

 

Dr. Bob

 

He does have a good point - the firearm is a federal issue, drugs considered a federal crime + a firearm is bad news. Also police claim they need to enter your homes SWAT style - because they fear your firearm. They enter your house in a dramatic fashion so you can't even think about reaching for your weapon.

 

Rippers will enter your house in the same dramatic fashion too - hoping to overwhelm you before you reach a weapon.

 

So you weight your risks - a grower of 5 plants might not need a 5.7mm FN Pistol (20 shot pls) but a grower of 40+ might want one. Just remember, you have a split second to identify cops or robbers at the door and avoid getting shot.

 

-DN

[sfldg]

i love the fn 5.7 lol

[Guest energypro]

I happen to run a business on the north end of Flint.We have been robbed at gun point.One of my patients is my employee,so on many occasions I drive with both,so to ansawer your ? Yes,Really.

 

Man...sorry to hear about ya gettin' held up...that sucks...hope everyone was safe.

 

As far as..."One of my patients is my employee,so on many occasions I drive with both"...

 

I don't even want to know what that means...but good luck with that...seriously...

[Guest energypro]

CCW and MMJ

 

One point to consider is the leverage you give LEO when you pack a pistol/firearm or even have one at your grow site. An arrest, justified or not, is just the beginning. Simple possession is a relatively benign charge, and folks are much more inclined to fight it. If you have a weapon that is an automatic 2 year prison sentence, that gives LEO MUCH more leverage over you to make you cope a plea. My advice to my patients is to NOT have a weapon anywhere you have MMJ. Again, I am not a lawyer, but this came from one and it seems like pretty good advice. Just putting it out there.

 

Dr. Bob

 

 

Is the "automatic 2 year prison sentence" you are reffering too the ol' "one with gun get's two" thing?

 

I believe that would be correct upon conviction right?...I dunno...I'm not an Attorney...don't even play one on TV...

 

If memory serves correctly...an employee of a business does not need a CPL for use during business hours only...then there is the transportation

thing again...separate firearm and ammo...lock it up...blah,blah,blah.....

 

To me it just seems TOO dangerous to carry both at the same time but hey...more power to those how choose to do so...best of luck...

 

-

[Dlo]

Man...sorry to hear about ya gettin' held up...that sucks...hope everyone was safe.

 

As far as..."One of my patients is my employee,so on many occasions I drive with both"...

 

I don't even want to know what that means...but good luck with that...seriously...

 

 

It means one of my employees is one of my patients. When I bring his meds to work for him I also have my CPL and pistol.

 

Im not trying to say its a great idea, every one should do it, but I dont belive it to be against the law.

 

If I was in Oakland Co. or some of the others that have come out against MM, I may change my tune. The police here dont mess with you just because they have nothing better to do.

 

Not sure why it would be any different then having a scipt of vicodin.

 

Time will tell.

[LITLJON]

Well if you have CPL YOU BETTER BE READY TO USE IT! Step up and get fully trained don't be a know it all and say I know how to shoot, take a defense class and practice PracticePRACTICE! If you freak out and panic your dead or at the least the crooks will have another weapon to add to their arsenal. Don't say it will not happen to me. It just happened to some people that I know twice in one day, once on a main road and again later that same night at their home. Lucky the kids were not home. More to this story but not my place to tell. I also heard (hearsay from a creditable source) that there have been 30+ robberies w/the same MO in the last 45 days. Mostly against growers in Genesee Co.

 

 

Just be safe no matter what choice you make!

[bobandtorey]

Well when buying a 12 gauge found it funny that the one question they ask before you can even recieve the gun is >> IF << you have or are addicted to cannabis or have any dealings with such substance and answering Y.E.S. will disqualify you from recieving your firearm .

 

Are you sure of this if true then i would send more then a letter to the N.R.A

[MiMeds4U]

I happen to run a business on the north end of Flint.We have been robbed at gun point.One of my patients is my employee,so on many occasions I drive with both,so to answer your ? Yes,Really.

 

I was going to say , if your patient is the one with the permit than you giving him a ride with it on his body (or better yet asking him to separate,conceal, and put bullets in trunk vice/versa than i see nothing wrong of the sort,,, For example and this is not fact just one of my thinking is, if you area taxi driver and giving a client a ride and you the driver is a MM card holder and has a joint in the ashtray , who would be the one in the wrong if pulled over: The customer has no idea the driver is a card holder and the driver does not know the client has a gun... MY point here is that if you are giving a RIDE to someone who is to tell you knew about the gun and who is to know that the gun holder knows anything of the MM?

 

I understand that when court comes about the C.G./P.T. information might leak but MOST likely it would have to be leaked from the P.T./Caregiver because the information in this regard is confidential.. either way I think that unless you are carrying/selling/obtaining or using MM while in direct possession of the firearm may contitute a case against you, but mere carrying of either on separate persons would deem it legal IN MY OWN OPINION

 

Man...sorry to hear about ya gettin' held up...that sucks...hope everyone was safe.

 

As far as..."One of my patients is my employee,so on many occasions I drive with both"...

 

I don't even want to know what that means...but good luck with that...seriously...

 

I think he means that HE or HIS patient carries and since he gives he/she a ride that they are packing as soon as he enters his car they have a gun since his PT carries,,, BUT as I said if the driver does not know and the PT does not tell him than who is it they can bust, especially if it is dis-assembled according to state law.. Now I do understand if they pull you over find a ounce of Ganja and a loaded gun then for sure there will be a case,,, In conclusion if one with a Concealed Weapon Permit is going to carry in a car or otherwise while engaging into grey area's, I suggest taking apart the gun, securing the bullets and keeping the MM away from sight and away from the gun and ammo.. Basically follow ALL rules of transporting the gun safely and treating the MM as the gun or bullets in which i mean separate them the same way you would the gun, consider the MM a separate weapon (so the police see it) that HAS to be stored away from the other real weapons and I bet there will be no issue. Plus they cannot search the trunk in Michigan (unless law has changed but my State Cop uncle which is all for MM says if they find nothing in the car they cannot open the trunk, ACCEPT if it is customs and I sure as hell hope no-one attempts bringing there stuff on a plane or boarder crossing unless completely legal (guns)) so if they pull you over and do search your car and find nothing then they cannot search the trunk, so keep the gun taken apart, barrel locked and without the bullets near and even if they did eventually open the trunk the gun is locked up and safe... IF you take EVERY step into securing and making the gun access safe and out of harms way, the court may be better towards you if you can which you will be able to prove that you did everything under your power to safely transport the weapon and that no-one had knowledge or access to the dual or triple locked weapon.. Sorry for long rant but thought I would help try and clear some issues up.

 

 

Well if you have CPL YOU BETTER BE READY TO USE IT! Step up and get fully trained don't be a know it all and say I know how to shoot, take a defense class and practice PracticePRACTICE! If you freak out and panic your dead or at the least the crooks will have another weapon to add to their arsenal. Don't say it will not happen to me. It just happened to some people that I know twice in one day, once on a main road and again later that same night at their home. Lucky the kids were not home. More to this story but not my place to tell. I also heard (hearsay from a creditable source) that there have been 30+ robberies w/the same MO in the last 45 days. Mostly against growers in Genesee Co.

 

 

Just be safe no matter what choice you make!

 

I have heard about robberies taken place by ex-military/ex-police officers raiding homes with bullet proof vests and automatic guns, and the way they are doing it shows they are highly professional (Detroit Police?!??!) The way they enter the home or business and shuffle people to one corner quickly to let the other hoodlums with them score all the Meds/$$/ and anything they can get.. Just recently 3 of these people with military tactics were busted because they broke into a home in Lansing demanding the 69 and 72 year old occupants for there drug stash, the people obviously not knowing what the hell was going on said they did not have any drugs, the perps then hit the old lady across the head and she fell down the stairs while meanwhile the husband called 911 from the neighbors.. THEY WERE ALL Special Op's police force for Genesee County (if i remember correctly could have been Livingston Country lol)

 

 

 

IN CLOSING my firm belief is if you follow the concealed weapons permit, ie. separate and lock gun and ammo, and have the MM in a safe place AWAY from the other things you will be perfect... Unless your very paranoid I would disassemble the gun , barrel lock it, bullets in separate place and MM in your pocket or dashboard,, bunny muffin even getting a lock box for under the driver seat may not be a to bad of idea, or a gun lock box under the driver seat and one in the trunk used for both MM and one for the gun,, The courts may look at you good for locking a disassembled gun in one box bullets in the dashboard and MM in the other lock box, that would make BOTH things non-accessible by any party, of course if they stole your car which is slimmer than the other.

 

Sorry for a long rant here just had some thoughts i thought I would share, sorry about my typos not feeling so well today thanks.. Also any questions or anything LMK I am interested in making new friends on here and looking for people to join my compassion club, still looking for volunteer/employees to help with the club, we also need help making our rules and also drivers for our 24 service.. we will be trying to provide to all of Michigan so people from all over the state are needed, Thanks!

 

Alexander at Michigan Meds 4 U!

[boroboro]

The question on the firearms purchase form reads: "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?" Safe for most all legal patients to answer "No".

http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf

 

A strict interpretation of that would be much more prejudicial to the users of caffeine than cannabis. I know I've been addicted to caffeine, but never to cannabis.

[jtgeme]

If you have a CPL and you are a carrying a firearm and you are interacting with the police (i.e traffic stop, etc.) you have a duty to disclose the fact that you have a CPL and you are carrying to the officer.

 

The MM issue complicates things. You cannot be in possession of a firearm while under the influence of any intoxicating substance - alcohol and medication included. I imagine that being under the influence of MM would be same. Here is my thinking - if I were prescribed and taking codeine, I would not be carrying my firearm despite the fact that I have a CPL - the same should apply to MM.

 

Now, can you be in possession of meds (not under the influence of) and carry a firearm pursuant to your CPL. Probably, but I would not. The fact remains we need a test case, and I am not volunteering.

 

Again, here is my thinking: Assume Person X is a caregiver and not a patient. X has his CPL. X does not medicate, use, or consume marijuana in any way. X has 2.5 ounces of usable meds on him that he is delivering to his patient. In my opinion (and this is not legal authority, opinion, or advice by any means) X should be able to carry both his pistol and the meds for his patients without a problem. But I am not suggesting that anybody do it. I am attributing the possession of MM to be similar to the possession of any proscribed meds (or alcohol) that have side effects that could impair one's ability when handling a firearm. I carry when I go to the grocery store, should I not carry because I may decide to purchase a six-pack?

 

The information from Oregon is helpful, but only persuasive, so Michigan Courts do not need to follow it. Would they? I have no idea.

 

I am not looking at the CPL statute right now - but I am thinking there is something in there about violating federal law - so that too could be a problem too.

 

Finally: Somebody posted something about this...in Michigan, there is a mandatory 2 year sentence for possession of firearm during the commission of a crime. So, if you break the law, and you are carrying a firearm at the time, you will serve 2 years.

[LITLJON]

This is a fact if you come busting into my house or rob me on the street there is a good chance your going to find yourself looking out a zippered bag that has big white letters on it starting with C.&O..

[Guest energypro]

No...the USE of a firearm in the commision of a fellony... = + 2...

[The Digital Nomad]

No...the USE of a firearm in the commision of a fellony... = + 2...

 

if they deem your grow a felony - possession of the firearm is charged - as the gun was 'used to protect' the crop. Thats why they took the guns of the people in the waterford raids - while they were not 'using' the guns, the LEO will claim the guns were 'used for protection of the grow'.

 

-DN

[+420Atheist]

Southfield on Telegraph road....are ya still with me?

 

It's the MMMCC in the ONYX bldg. @ 29777 Telegraph (southbound side)in suite #1451 Southfield, MI 48034 248-932-6400

 

Place was packed...HE started yackin' about how kool this was gonna be...even tho NOBODY HAS A J.O.B. ...but hey...there is a LOT of that going around these days and isn't the point.

 

This is a single specific incident. Sure it sounds like this guy may have been working the system.

 

But when you said:

 

THIS is the type of stupidity that is really going to RUIN this medical bill for those of US with

ACTUAL CHRONIC (ie..NO CURE) conditions like...oh say...my Multiple Sclerosis...and not some

moron like I see in these "clinics" that fell off a darn ladder and busted up a foot 'cause he was hammered

and now he has a permanent limp...and THAT gets him a card...????...

 

Was more general and sounded like you were condemning any person with a injury that did not meet your standards of chronic pain.

 

So it may have been simply I did not understand what your point was. In the context I read it in it sounded like you believed there were many people working the system. You could not possibly know that for sure and being divisive is just as likely to "ruin" the MMJ law.

[jtgeme]

No...the USE of a firearm in the commision of a fellony... = + 2...

 

"Use" is construed pretty broadly under the law. I wouldn't try to argue the difference, but that's just me, others may feel differently.

[JMMMBA]

Great thread! Unfortunately, the bottom line is that a test case is going to happen. Hopefully the NRA will step in and help out at that point. Until then, play it safe and play it smart fellow MMJ'ers.

[Guest energypro]

This is a single specific incident. Sure it sounds like this guy may have been working the system.

 

But when you said:

 

 

 

Was more general and sounded like you were condemning any person with a injury that did not meet your standards of chronic pain.

 

So it may have been simply I did not understand what your point was. In the context I read it in it sounded like you believed there were many people working the system. You could not possibly know that for sure and being divisive is just as likely to "ruin" the MMJ law.

 

REALLY...ya think??????????

 

I'm outta here man...you obviously know everything…I tried typing LOUDER and SLOWER so you might be able to understand…but...

 

 

Maybe…you might want to try and logoff and…I don’t know…go outside…get some fresh air...just a thought...

 

I had an idea this was going to go sideways…but I thought I’d take a run at it anyway…

 

Best wishes to all...be safe...I’m out...you win...feel better now big-guy?...this is a waste of my time...

 

I have re-read this thread several times and even sent it to a couple friends...you do not want me to post their replies

here...two of which are LEO’s...the rest are active hunting and firearms enthusiasts...I think you might be too upset as it is...

 

Sad really because..."being divisive is just as likely to "ruin" the MMJ law."

...hhhmmmmmmm...now where did I JUST read that?

 

 

...you think my views are gonna create dissension amongst the ranks do ya?

 

 

NOT my intentions…do not confuse that with YOUR interpretations of.

 

Gotta go...life is calling...it's a big world & I wanna be in on most of it...best wishes to all...

 

 

Happy Holidays...Merry Christmas..Happy New Year...PEACE...

 

-

[+420Atheist]

REALLY...ya think??????????

 

I'm outta here man...you obviously know everything…I tried typing LOUDER and SLOWER so you might be able to understand…but...

 

 

Maybe…you might want to try and logoff and…I don’t know…go outside…get some fresh air...just a thought...

 

I had an idea this was going to go sideways…but I thought I’d take a run at it anyway…

 

Best wishes to all...be safe...I’m out...you win...feel better now big-guy?...this is a waste of my time...

 

I have re-read this thread several times and even sent it to a couple friends...you do not want me to post their replies

here...two of which are LEO’s...the rest are active hunting and firearms enthusiasts...I think you might be too upset as it is...

 

Sad really because..."being divisive is just as likely to "ruin" the MMJ law."

...hhhmmmmmmm...now where did I JUST read that?

 

 

...you think my views are gonna create dissension amongst the ranks do ya?

 

 

NOT my intentions…do not confuse that with YOUR interpretations of.

 

Gotta go...life is calling...it's a big world & I wanna be in on most of it...best wishes to all...

 

 

Happy Holidays...Merry Christmas..Happy New Year...PEACE...

 

-

 

By

[Cocowheats]

energypro-I think the point was "don't judge a book by it's cover"..plain and simple, not everybody looks like they have terminal cancer but they do...same with many disorders as you probably know....done, not trying to argue

 

When you purchase a firearm, the BATF form asks you if you are ADDICTED to marijuana(asks similiar about narcotics)...and we all know that ADDICTION to mj is rare and almost completely impossible...so I always check "NO" with cofidence that I have not lied because I am NOT ADDICTED...I purchased 4 guns this year, so I think I'm familiar with the paperwork...

 

Get pulled over with a CPL in MI and IT IS LAW TO TELL THEM EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT CARRYING(saw somebody post that you don't have to say anything if not carrying, BUT YOU DO...LAW!!!)...so a "Officer I have to inform you I have a valid CPL BUT I AM NOT CARRYING TODAY" would be fine...IT IS LAW TO TELL THEM NO MATTER WHAT!!!

 

It is NOT law to have to tell anybody for that matter about your medical marijuana participation...

 

Gunboard cannot look you up to see if you are in the med. mj program, so unless they know you, they'll never know and therefore can't just deny a renewal or new application...furthermore, if you are renewing and haven't caused a ruccass since your cpl issue date, then why would they question a seemingly law abiding citizen that has had no gun related issues/crimes?...so generally a non-issue...

 

NOW...I have my CPL and med mj card but I obtained my CPL first. I do carry everyday and while carrying meds, just not after medicating(duh!)...So I researched this awhile ago and found nothing that stated the 2 cards conflicted with eachother...Many dispensaries have somebody with a CPL on staff so if I know it, I'm sure some law enforcement knows it...

 

That said, I think it's no diff. than carrying your gun to the pharmacy to help ensure no thug robs you for that expensive oxy script(that you couldnt afford replacing or living without)...wouldn't want that now would we?....Don't think it's far off from being able to buy/consume alcohol and still be able to have a CPL(obviously can't consume and carry as that is clearly illegal...but you could buy UNOPENED alcohol legally)....Also, being on narcotics DOES NOT dissqualify you from a CPL and we all know mj is far less worse in millions of ways than any narcotic over any period of time(my gunboard gave a older guy his cpl while i was there even though he showe he had a morphone pump pumpin to his veins...and a vicodin script still...no joke!he got his!).....So with how it is now(for obtaining a CPL), i don't think they could make it a dissqualification(having a mj card i mean not allowing you to obtain or cancelling your cpl) but they have done dumber things in gov.......Somebody mentioned in home deals/drop offs, this would be an issue partly solved by carrying(I carry in this circumstance even when im the buyer in my home...wouldn't want to be robbed, period!)

 

I think this will be more and more non-issue as those mouth test swabs get in more law enfourcement hands...that'd make this as easy as a breath test in most cases to prove you are being responsible(ya, i know the swabs have had neg. feedback..but as they get better/more accurate...)

 

Bottom line, use your noggin(it's what it's there for)...CPL is CONCEALED, keep it that way when you got meds!...Don't carry and medicate...Don't self incriminate(wouldn't help your case if you had a half smoked joint too...even though that was yesterdays joint...)...And don't tell the police you have a mj med card or meds on you less it comes down to it...

 

Happy Carrying/Medicating everybody(but never both!)

[Cocowheats]

if they deem your grow a felony - possession of the firearm is charged - as the gun was 'used to protect' the crop. Thats why they took the guns of the people in the waterford raids - while they were not 'using' the guns, the LEO will claim the guns were 'used for protection of the grow'.

 

-DN

what if I bought the gun/s before med. mj was even legal...how'd they say "crop protection" then?...just thinking, not trying to break your balls!

[+420Atheist]

 

Get pulled over with a CPL in MI and IT IS LAW TO TELL THEM EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT CARRYING(saw somebody post that you don't have to say anything if not carrying, BUT YOU DO...LAW!!!)...so a "Officer I have to inform you I have a valid CPL BUT I AM NOT CARRYING TODAY" would be fine...IT IS LAW TO TELL THEM NO MATTER WHAT!!!

 

Not according to the LEO that taught the CPL class I took. He highly recommended telling them even if you are not carrying but it was not required.

 

here is the law Section 28.425f

 

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

 

 

This is from the State Police web site:

 

1. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.

 

 

Now I think it is stupid not to tell them since they will see it when they run your license and you know they will be asking about it. So there is no good reason to tell them up front but it is not required if you are not packing at the time.

[Mememe]

That doesn't sound like a smart rule. Someone gets pulled over, police come up to window, driver says I have a gun... BLAM BLAM BLAM 1 dead driver. I wouldn't say anything about a gun until the police ask if there are any weapons in the vehicle. Always keep your hands on top of the steering wheel until they ask you to do something.

[Cocowheats]

420Atheist- Not arguing(I could be wrong..) but, my CPL class was VERY VERY clear to state that it was ILLEGAL to NOT disclose that you are a CPL holder(gun or not) if being detained for any reason(pulled over being temp detainment as I'm told)...Was told this by the LAWYER that came in...once again, he was very clear to state that it can be a suspension/revoke for this(now like I said, I can be wrong!...but it IS what he said!...wife took it to and says the same...)...I'll try to find supporting evidence...

 

I had an issue where the police came to my house and ran me and I thought nothing of telling them about my CPL since it's MY house...not telling them that got me cuff'd and more or less yelled at...nothing came from it(they were on a b/s complaint anyway) other than 2 pissed cops that kept threatning to REVOKE my license...no joke! true story!(I was more than polite for that matter!)...Gun forums are riddled w/people with similiar instances in MI(waited to state it then got hassled while not carrying)...

 

CPL PULLED OVER...Page 2 "requirements when stopped"...straight from mi.gov!!!...dosen't say if your not carrying though like stated above but they are going to figure out that you could be and assume you are so why not tell them, seems more responsible to me. This is something they have to come to terms with so it's not likely to end up with a bam and a dead driver like also stated above.

 

I've had to tell an officer I was carrying when a buddy got pulled over. He just un-chambered my gun and left it on the hood of the car until we were ok to go...no hassle/ no issue(no marijuana involved either)

 

Unfortnatly I believe there are a few gray areas in the MI CPL laws just as there are in the mj laws....but the CPL laws are deff. a bit more clear, lol!...Wait and see I guess, VERY suprised to have not seen the "test case" yet, didnt think it'd take a year+.

 

AS I read gun forums, it seems to be the general conclusion that you have to state your CPL carrying or not...but the law seems to be misworded towards that matter...Just tell the cop!(They all ready know at "that" point anyways)...Some people say the old law stated that you had to disclose your CPL w/or w/out a gun, but not anymore...can't find the old law though guys/gals...