Coa Rules In Redden-Clark Case

[peanutbutter]

The state confirms the doctor patient relationship when they issue a ID card.

 

It is no longer up to a court to verify such a relationship. That has already taken place in Lansing.

 

In fact, such court intervention requires a violation of the confidentiality section of the Medical Marihuana Act.

 

Section 6 (h) (1) Applications and supporting information submitted by qualifying patients, including information regarding their primary caregivers and physicians, are confidential.

[bobandtorey]

 

Dan Calabrese

 

Medical marijuana law: Bad weed

In 2008, Michigan voters were asked to approve a measure that would legalize marijuana for "medicinal purposes." A large majority said, "Like, sure, dude."

 

What could go wrong?

 

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Plenty. It usually does when laws are passed under fraudulent pretenses - such as the pretense that the supporters of "medical marijuana" are interested in anything apart from the desire to get stoned without running afoul of the cops.

 

But they played the so-called compassion angle to the hilt, and enough people actually believed that the purpose of this law was to relieve the pain of cancer patients or those with so-called chronic back pain. So the same voters who showed up at the polls that day to help send Barack Obama to the White House figured they might as well give the thumbs-up to this too. They were already in a politically-induced stupor. Might as well try one of the chemically-induced variety as well.

 

As you might expect from a law written for -- and probably by -- pot smokers, nothing makes sense here.

 

The law does not require that pot-smokers get their "medicine" from a properly regulated pharmacy, like they would get any other legal drug. It does not include any provision to deal with so-called "dispensaries," where Bubba the Back Pain Faker brings his doctor's note to Arlo the Hippie and picks up his stash, while his party friends wait outside in the car.

 

So what do we have today? Municipalities all across Metro Detroit have placed moratoriums on these dispensaries, while they wait for someone to figure out how to properly regulate them. Oakland County Sheriff Mike Bouchard, expecting people to actually follow the law as it's written, recently staged a massive raid that prompted the stoners - er, sorry, "patients" - to complain of police harassment in the manner you'd expect from college students who can't believe the cops were so bogus as to make them turn down their volume on their 12-foot-high speakers at 6 in the morning.

 

To hell with the fuzz, man!

 

And in Waterford Township, you can now join the "Compassion Club" (for $20 up front, you understand . . . compassion can't just be given away), where you can join 450 (!) other members who gather together and, um, "take their medicine."

 

Of course! When your grandmother takes her arthritis pills, she always goes out to a nightclub and pops them en masse with 400 other blue hairs, right? Who medicates alone?

 

Michigan voters, you were suckered. Electing Democrats like Jennifer Granholm, Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, I can somewhat understand because so many of you have been brainwashed by your union leaders - and because Michigan Republicans have a habit of nominating stiffs.

 

But this? Seriously. Dude. You didn't understand -- when you voted for this -- that "medical marijuana" is nothing more than a scam to make it easier for weak-minded individuals -- people who can't find a way to relax or deal with life via natural methods -- to toke up? You really bought that whole compassion thing? You really thought it was all about pain relief and not about the desire of a bunch of losers to sit around and get stoned?

 

At the "Compassion Club"?

 

Suckers. Some people will believe anything.

 

Dan Calabrese is editor-in-chief of The North Star National and author of the spiritual thriller "Powers and Principalities," a story set in Royal Oak, Michigan

 

http://detnews.com/article/20100917/MIVIEW/9170400/1469/MIVIEW for all the sick people this may make you sicker

 

 

 

[mizerman]

 

 

 

If you'd like to ask these judges about their opinions, and why they are refusing to release the two-hour audio-recording of the oral arguments in this case, their contact information is provided below:

 

Hon. Peter D. O'Connell (wrote the concurring opinion - http://coa.courts.mi.gov/documents/opinions/final/coa/20100914_c295809_45_295809c.opn.pdf )

Phone: (517) 373-9847

Fax: (517) 373-9870

e-Mail: poconnell@courts.mi.gov

 

Hon. Patrick M. Meter

Phone: (517) 373-6787

Fax: (517) 373-6897

e-Mail: pmeter@courts.mi.gov

 

Hon. Donald S. Owens

Phone: (517) 373-9854

Fax: (517) 373-9817

e-Mail: dowens@courts.mi.gov

 

Or you can send them snail-mail at:

Michigan Court of Appeals

925 W Ottawa St

PO Box 30022

Lansing, MI 48909

Excellent post. All of us should contact these judges. They work for US!!!

 

Mizerman

[Dr. Bob]

You would think that when the state verified the application and issued the card you would think it was over. I look at it as getting arrested for driving a car, because the cops wanted to verify your drivers ed course to see if your license is valid and your instructor was qualified to teach it.

 

Examples of federal one visit certification visits include VA disability exams and FAA flight physicals. They don't have a leg to stand on but we need to make sure our certifications are solid, no corners cut and the paperwork is in order. 99% of my patients are seriously ill, middle aged folks that are very well documented (I certified a crippled MS patient that was bedridden in a house call in Adrian once- she didn't have all her records but it was very obvious she qualified). The problem is, the media and the cops like a story, and will parade out an 18 year old stoner with PMS as an example of the 'typical' MMJ patient for the public. The court ruling specifies 18 year old high school students not being able to have MMJ on school grounds. Come on, how many 18 year old high school kids have a chronic and debilitating disease- there are some of course, but they aren't the majority.

 

All I, as a good, ethical doc, can do is make sure I do the work to be sure of my certs. Yes we will end up in court sometime, but if I do the work, have my ducks in a row, I can at least fight the good fight for you. They are splitting frog hairs to try and override the will of the people, and I, the MMMA, patients and the other quality certification clinics need to make sure our game is tight and cut their legs out from under them.

 

Dr. Bob

[bobandtorey]

They don't have a leg to stand on but we need to make sure our certifications are solid, no corners cut and the paperwork is in order

 

 

WOW i hear you Loud and clear here they don't have any thing we will be FREE They the PA wants this to go to the supreme court i have said that from the start it is just what the PA wants so they can try and change the Law

 

 

Peace from the front

[lkline300]

Isn't it really just opponents of the law trying to dis rail it under the guise of lack of clarity. I mean if they wanted to work this stuff out with us they would. To think that we need to to drag INNOCENT people like Bob & Tory and others through this to figure it out is crazy. Has to be a better, more intelligent way.

 

Let me take this opportunity to apologize  for the ignorant behavior of some of our fellow human beings. I wish you guy's the best. To have to go through this cr#p at a time when you should be concentrating on your health & happiness is unimaginable.

 

Please post or pm any fund info when it becomes available.

[bobandtorey]

Please post or pm any fund info when it becomes available.

 

i was hopeing the MMMA would help us do just that

[+RevThad]

Dan Calabrese

 

Medical marijuana law: Bad weed

In 2008, Michigan voters were asked to approve a measure that would legalize marijuana for "medicinal purposes." A large majority said, "Like, sure, dude."

 

What could go wrong?

 

...

 

As you might expect from a law written for -- and probably by -- pot smokers, nothing makes sense here.

 

The law does not require that pot-smokers get their "medicine" from a properly regulated pharmacy, like they would get any other legal drug. It does not include any provision to deal with so-called "dispensaries," where Bubba the Back Pain Faker brings his doctor's note to Arlo the Hippie and picks up his stash, while his party friends wait outside in the car.

 

....

 

 

And in Waterford Township, you can now join the "Compassion Club" (for $20 up front, you understand . . . compassion can't just be given away), where you can join 450 (!) other members who gather together and, um, "take their medicine."

 

Of course! When your grandmother takes her arthritis pills, she always goes out to a nightclub and pops them en masse with 400 other blue hairs, right? Who medicates alone?

 

...

 

 

Dan Calabrese is editor-in-chief of The North Star National and author of the spiritual thriller "Powers and Principalities," a story set in Royal Oak, Michigan

 

http://detnews.com/article/20100917/MIVIEW/9170400/1469/MIVIEW for all the sick people this may make you sicker

 

Mr. Calabrese,

 

I find it interesting that you are still employed as a writer, if the above Op-ed is an example of your work. It was filled with nothing but stereotypes, cliches, bigotry and hyperbole. I believe the only 2 things that may have been accurate in it involved the date the MMMA was voted on, and that pharmacies don't fill mmj prescriptions.

 

To spin your words for a moment... As you might expect from an article written for --and definitely by-- the uninformed, nothing makes sense here.

 

So let's get down to the nuts and bolts of your article and the inaccuracies included in it.

 

First the simple one, there is a reason that pharmacies do not handle medical marijuana, it is still against the law to write a prescription for it, and therefore they cannot fill such a prescription. That is under federal law, marijuana (medicinal or recreational) is still a Schedule 1 drug, and in the eyes of the FDA and DEA there is no medical use for it. Please explain to me how crack, heroin, meth, and LSD are all scheduled lower than marijuana...

 

As for your poor grandmother and her arthritis, where do you think she would be going for pain reduction if the federal government outlawed her arthritis medications, or any of her other medications? While she may not be going to compassion club to medicate there, I guarantee she would be going to pick up her medications there. You know, now that I think about it, many in your profession seem to like going to various meeting places to self medicate with various mood and mind altering concoctions... But I digress.

 

How much research have you actually put into this subject? Do you know what the lethal dose of marijuana is? Don't worry, nobody knows, the last few tests that have attempted to figure it out gave up after figuring out that 54 pounds in one sitting by one person was not enough to be lethal. On the other hand, try taking 13 aspirin tonight, and let us know how that works out for you. Further, there are documented cases of cannabis curing cancers. Let me repeat that, CURING CANCER. In recent studies and polls, cannabis has been shown to reduce the need for narcotic pain medications (which are also toxic) on average 80%.

 

Finally, let's touch on your logical fallacy. Even if you are correct about some folks getting their registration cards for no other reason than to be able to get high and avoid being arrested; that doesn't mean that the folks that are following the law are or should be compared to the "potheads" as you called them. Following your logic, anybody that gets a drivers license is in it so that they can drive drunk, oh and avoid police hassles the rest of the time.

 

In short, I find your broad generalizations of patients to be offensive and ignorant. I also think it is hilarious that you felt the need to whine about folks protesting Sheriff Bouchard and his tactics, aren't there some real crimes to be looking into down in the metro areas of Oakland county? Perhaps the crack dealers on every other corner, or the gang bangers shooting at each other, or hell maybe even some of the criminal activities of his own police force?

 

<sarcasm> Perhaps, we should just outlaw any and all medications to prevent people from abusing them, to hell with those that need the medications. </sarcasm>

[bobandtorey]

Mr. Calabrese,

 

I find it interesting that you are still employed as a writer, if the above Op-ed is an example of your work. It was filled with nothing but stereotypes, cliches, bigotry and hyperbole. I believe the only 2 things that may have been accurate in it involved the date the MMMA was voted on, and that pharmacies don't fill mmj prescriptions.

 

To spin your words for a moment... As you might expect from an article written for --and definitely by-- the uninformed, nothing makes sense here.

 

So let's get down to the nuts and bolts of your article and the inaccuracies included in it.

 

First the simple one, there is a reason that pharmacies do not handle medical marijuana, it is still against the law to write a prescription for it, and therefore they cannot fill such a prescription. That is under federal law, marijuana (medicinal or recreational) is still a Schedule 1 drug, and in the eyes of the FDA and DEA there is no medical use for it. Please explain to me how crack, heroin, meth, and LSD are all scheduled lower than marijuana...

 

As for your poor grandmother and her arthritis, where do you think she would be going for pain reduction if the federal government outlawed her arthritis medications, or any of her other medications? While she may not be going to compassion club to medicate there, I guarantee she would be going to pick up her medications there. You know, now that I think about it, many in your profession seem to like going to various meeting places to self medicate with various mood and mind altering concoctions... But I digress.

 

How much research have you actually put into this subject? Do you know what the lethal dose of marijuana is? Don't worry, nobody knows, the last few tests that have attempted to figure it out gave up after figuring out that 54 pounds in one sitting by one person was not enough to be lethal. On the other hand, try taking 13 aspirin tonight, and let us know how that works out for you. Further, there are documented cases of cannabis curing cancers. Let me repeat that, CURING CANCER. In recent studies and polls, cannabis has been shown to reduce the need for narcotic pain medications (which are also toxic) on average 80%.

 

Finally, let's touch on your logical fallacy. Even if you are correct about some folks getting their registration cards for no other reason than to be able to get high and avoid being arrested; that doesn't mean that the folks that are following the law are or should be compared to the "potheads" as you called them. Following your logic, anybody that gets a drivers license is in it so that they can drive drunk, oh and avoid police hassles the rest of the time.

 

In short, I find your broad generalizations of patients to be offensive and ignorant. I also think it is hilarious that you felt the need to whine about folks protesting Sheriff Bouchard and his tactics, aren't there some real crimes to be looking into down in the metro areas of Oakland county? Perhaps the crack dealers on every other corner, or the gang bangers shooting at each other, or hell maybe even some of the criminal activities of his own police force?

 

<sarcasm> Perhaps, we should just outlaw any and all medications to prevent people from abusing them, to hell with those that need the medications. </sarcasm>

 

Great post we should send this post/letter to him

[+RevThad]

Great post we should send this post/letter to him

Feel free, I give my words freely to anybody that wishes to use them. I mean the words belong to all of us anyways...

[+Silverblue]

The state confirms the doctor patient relationship when they issue a ID card.

 

It is no longer up to a court to verify such a relationship. That has already taken place in Lansing.

 

In fact, such court intervention requires a violation of the confidentiality section of the Medical Marihuana Act.

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines, too. I figure, if they approve someone, then that dr/pt relationship was deemed valid.

 

People I know who went to one of those clinics said the doc didn't just rush through their time, he encouraged questions, someone asked about qualifying conditions, the dr knew what was on the list and what wasn't. The clinic did keep the copies of the records the patients brought. I assume that's so they can prove there was a relationship.

 

Sb

[bobandtorey]

Thats right they have no case the PA just wants us to stay inn court how will 12 people find us guilty not going to happen

They may just drop this as they think they have bigger fish to fly

[Dr. Bob]

Rather than complain about how unfair this ruling is, let's come up with a plan of action and some leadership in the field of certifications.

 

1. Marijuana is illegal. All the time for everyone. The only thing the MMMA says is that a medical patient with a qualifying condition may possess and use marijuana and all the laws of the state that make it illegal will not be enforced, but are still on the books.

 

2. While many folks want marijuana to be legal for everyone, it is a baby step we are taking allowing medical patients to use it. Having smoke outs, 18 year old kids with minimal medical problems getting 'get out of jail free cards' and dispensaries that are not allowed by the law are NOT helping the cause.

 

3. When we get burned, as in the Redden case, we can't just whine about it, we need to see what they are zeroing in on and take proactive steps to change the way we do things so we are squeaky clean.

 

I can't control the first two, but I can and will say something about the last one.

 

Don't ask for certification unless you are willing to bet jail that the most out of touch judge and and jury will buy your story and your medical evidence. You need a serious problem, one that requires daily meds and causes harm to your life (missed work/school, constant pain, disability confirmed by insurance/VA/SS etc).

 

Have your records in hand from a physician, not a pain log, not a calendar, not a tale of woe. Don't have insurance? I am sorry, but you have to get the documentation or a reputable clinic cannot help you. Go to urgent cares, free clinics, whatever it takes to get some paperwork to show the doc.

 

When you go to the clinic, ask what safeguards they have in place to defend you against a prosecution based on Redden. Who is their doctor? What is his/her record. Is the doctor available and willing to defend you, or is he just the one on this week? Has the doctor lost his DEA or had the Medical Board take action against him/her? Imagine you were a prosecutor and want to discredit the doc, what would you look for and see if that doc has any red flags.

 

Insist on an examination in addition to the history and review of records. Make sure the doctor records it in your chart (do you even have a chart?). Do you feel like you are at a doctor's office or the DMV when you get your cert?

 

Finally, make sure the doctor makes some kind of follow up appointment. This can be a visit or some paperwork they want you to mail in so they (and you) can say they followed you up to check on how the medicine was doing, and that follow up is documented. This is a KEY point of the court's criticism of the Redden case.

 

Remember, history, physical exam, documentation and follow up are the key things the court zero'ed in on to question the 'bona fide doctor/patient' relationship the card is based on, so make sure you can show your certification met the criteria of a 'bona fide' relationship. Otherwise you open the door to some hot shot prosecutor to toss you in the slam.

 

Again, I have a responsibility to PROTECT MY PATIENT and I came up with this after study of the concurring opinion we are all talking about and long discussions with my attorney. We need to tighten our game and make this a regular medical practice with standards, procedures, and run like any other medical practice. The goal of getting everyone that wants it certified, free of charge or cheaply, is not showing the public we are responsible and using it like the voters allowed us to.

 

This isn't the wild west, and the more we push it, the tighter they will squeeze us. If they over react, because we don't police ourselves, we will end up with no one being able to get a certification. If they say they want to see more of a 'bona fide' relationship, and that only a 2 year doctor patient relationship before the certification is allowed, 99% of the folks will not be certifiable until they change doctors and wait 2 years. Right now the main problem we face is that many, if not most, physicians don't want to be involved in certifications or can't because they work for the VA/Tribal Health (federal docs), their hospitals/practices wont allow them to write certs, or they just don't know enough about it and don't want to get involved. Not fair, not right, but the way it is. Certification Clinic fill the need, and if we lose them because of some quick buck types that run shoddy no record clinics cause the state to crack down, the law is not worth the paper it is written on because there will be no access to care.

 

I'm not political or part of any 'movement', but these are things that need to be said and considered carefully. I can't remain silent and have my patients suffer.

 

Dr. Bob

[robnuvie]

Your argument makes sense, then angain doesn't. It makes sense to stay off the radar in the eyes of officials. But it doesn't make sense in the eyes of a doctor. (if this is the dr's writtings). My wife doesn't collect or has been examined by a va or ss dr. HEY SS DR. now that's funny!!! Not really. My point is you make sense because you have fallen in line with the government officials opinion about this law. You don't make sense because your to critical about a medicine plant PLANT!!!

[kruztydj]

I have to aggree with Dr Bob on this one. I plan on making another appt with my doc to discuss this and to follow up on my rec from him. I've made sure he's all my files for my illiness that date back years and plan on keeping the same doc for my rec's. Maybe over kill but when it comes down to it, I'd rather my Doc know as much about me as possible. The more fly by night recs and doc's we see the more they'll go after this relationship so dont give them the ammo.Know your Doc and know them well and they wont beable to use this against you.

 

 

Prosuctor: " How long have you had Dr so and so and how often have you seen him ?"

 

Myself: " He's been my Doc for years and I now only see him once a year for follow up and med checks."

 

That ends it right there,,, period......................

[bobandtorey]

we did do a follow up with the same Doc: now we feel like we are not legal if their is some thing wrong here the MDCH should of not sent are cards

 

and now is Leo coming back to take are Meds i don't know

[bobandtorey]

i think it's all in the plan to get us to the next level the State Supreme Court The courts just wants to keep the Doc: in line and slow down the cards may be so that the MDCH can cache up on cards

could be their plan

[Dr. Bob]

Don't confuse my efforts to clearly protect my patients from prosecution and dealing with the reality of the situation on the ground. I do NOT agree with the ruling and feel that once a certification is not denied by the state within 20 days of the check being cashed, that is the end of the story, the patient is legal. Right now they are trying to chip away at that and I am merely being proactive and cutting their legs out from under them. THAT is why I made the post, not because I am giving into the 'system'. I want to make sure my patients can be defended.

 

My point here is the same as I've said all along, now we know their playbook. We need to be sure that we don't give them ammunition to gut the MMMA. If that means cutting out 30% of the certs to make sure all the questionable ones with poor documentation are gone, it helps keep them available to the other 70%. I am looking at the greater good here. We have made good strides here, let's not blow it.

 

Yes, they are targeting doctors. Note in the opinion they are talking about making the doctor liable from a malpractice standpoint from doing a cert. This is designed to instill fear in an already conservative/controversy avoiding/fearful medical community to cause more and more doctors to shy away from doing certs in the first place. I am taking a stand for patients. I will continue to do certs, safe defensible ones, and hold my head high. That is why it stings when someone suggests that I buckled in to pressure or questions my ethics or motives for the way I run my clinic. It also stings when the courts feel free to question my judgement on whether or not someone qualifies under the law. I am taking these steps simply to make sure that NO COURT ever overturns one of the hundreds of certifications I do every month. The fly by night hotel clinics will be gone by the end of the year, so will the no record clinics, but I'll be here serving this community because I don't whine about unfairness, I adapt and overcome the attack.

 

This case will go to the higher courts, as it should, but in the meantime folks need to get certifications and they need to be shielded from prosecution by taking this horrible opinion into account and countering it with the way we do those certs. We need to practice defensible medicine and overcome the threat, both in the long term through the courts, and in the short term by making sure our clinics are 'bona fide' and squeaky clean.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS If any other physician wants to chime in, feel free. I don't want to give the impression that mine is the only medical opinion that counts. But from what I see, no one else is stepping forward and speaking up. If that makes me the medical sheriff of the board by default, so be it.

[bobandtorey]

This case will go to the higher courts, as it should

 

and that is the plan

 

Thanks for the post

 

Peace from the front lines

[Dilligaf]

My doctor of 15+ years filled out my renewal yesterday for a $20 paperwork fee. I'm sure this will stand up in court. No offense Dr. Bob but I think we should be pressuring our regular doctors for recommendations and only use people like you as a last resort. Many are afraid to ask their regular doctor, if your doctor won't do whats in your best interest then you should dump him/her and find one that will. If doctors see their clients leaving over MMJ I'm sure their opinions will change.

 

Mike

[bobandtorey]

2. While many folks want marijuana to be legal for everyone, it is a baby step we are taking allowing medical patients to use it. Having smoke outs, 18 year old kids with minimal medical problems getting 'get out of jail free cards' and dispensaries that are not allowed by the law are NOT helping the cause.

 

 

i do see what you mean but you have to get it from some wear

[+420Atheist]

So here is another can of worms this opens up. As a caregiver would I have to prove my patient had a valid doctor/patient relationship?

[bobandtorey]

So here is another can of worms this opens up. As a caregiver would I have to prove my patient had a valid doctor/patient relationship?

 

 

i think thats MDCH job if he has a card then i guess you would be OK i guess we shall see in about 2 years

[+420Atheist]

i think thats MDCH job if he has a card then i guess you would be OK i guess we shall see in about 2 years

 

darn two years? I feel stress from your ruling I can't imagine what you are going through. Good luck to the both of you.

[AmishRnot4ganja]

You know, my wife and I both have qualifying conditions. We both go to the same clinic. My wife's Dr. told her that he has no problem with her using MJ, he just can't write a recommendation for it because the clinic owners (his employer) will not allow any of their Drs. to do this. I have not approached my Drs (a family physician and a specialist) because of the same policy and because one of them may be anti-MJ due to personal reasons. Now, I believe that MJ helps my medical problems. I also believe that, as a responsible adult, I should be able to make my own medical decisions that affect MY life. If I have to go to a compassionate, reasonable Dr. who is outside of the corporate health climate, in order to receive treatment that I desire, why should a disinterested third party who has moral qualms about my treatment be able to stop me from receiving said treatment?

 

This "decision" opens up soooo many areas to question. Should I be checking the background of every physician I go to in order to avoid prosecution over some treatment he has recommended for me? When I go to see a specialist to receive treatment ONE(1)time and he prescribes pain pills to me, are we both in jeopardy because our relationship isn't "bona fide". Come on!! This is absurd! The government has no business questioning my relationship with any physician unless that physician is somehow exploiting me and then the onus would be upon the physician not me.

 

This whole thing is too much like the abortion fiasco. The ignorant, I mean conservative/ "christian", right claims that murder is being committed (take a course in Cellular Biology, ignoramus) and the other side claims that the government has no business interfering in a woman's personal MEDICAL choices. I side with the women being able to make their own choice. It is the same thing with medical marijuana. Why should the government be able to interfere with my personal medical choices? The scenarios that open up under a nation in which the government (or an insurance company) has the right to make non-financial medical choices for me is truly frightening. But it looks like I am going to have to get used to it. I am however going to fight it to the end and, if it gets bad enough, I am going to go out in a HUGE blaze of glory. The blaze is going to be a lighter at the end of a big joint. I am going to go and get blazed now as a matter of fact, and all of you conservative, christian, bigoted, close minded republican hacks who I know read these boards can go off and enjoy your Budweiser/liquor. While you enjoy your beer, please contemplate what you are doing to this country in the name of morality.