Powdery Mildew

[Highlander]

powdery mildew is not systemic accourding to the horticultre experts. not the hydro shop guys but the guys with degrees. a sulphor burner is key. a few years ago michigan saw a bad outbreak of it. i used the burner and got a dehumidifier.... not a spot in years mow. still running most of thos planst , always take clones before i flower. no pm .  but really ask the science guys. pot growers are the only ones that think its systemic. change the enviroment, give them a ph they cant handle its all done and over with.

 

I think people get confused on what "systemic" means and how it applies to the plant itself vs. the fungus or pest.  Something that is "systemic" is present or moves into/throughout a system, in this case a plant system.

 

I don't know a lot about PM and have no direct knowledge if it is systemic or not.  So let's use spider mites as an example.  They are not systemic.  They live on the plant and grow populations and move around outside the plant.  They don't get inside the plant and journey to a new location.  The most effective miticides are systemic products, meaning that the miticide is taken up by the plant and spread throughout the plant.  So you can spray the top of a leaf and not directly hit the mites, but when the miticide is absorbed into the plant and moves throughout the plant system and the mites feed on the plant matter, they die.

 

So this is probably the source of the confusion.  PM may not be a systemic fungus (meaning it probably moves to new leaves through the air rather than through plant tissues.), but a systemic fungicide will not only battle the current PM, but the fungicide will be absorbed into the plant tissue, distributed throughout the plant, and provide a defense against future outbreaks.

 

So, Eagle 20 is a systemic fungicide used to battle a fungus that itself is not systemic.

[Highlander]

I have seen perfectly clean (looking) clones from plants treated with Green Cure develop PM halfway through flowering multiple times. A cut from the same mother, treated with Eagle 20 systemic fungicide, and grown into a new, healthy mother, yielded untreated clones into the same room with the same environmental controls, but no PM halfway through flower.

 

This indicates to me that PM is a systemic infection, and Eagle 20 cured it. I do not think it can be cured with high pH sprays, though certainly controlled to the extent that the environment allows, and the "healthy" clones from the Green Cure treated mother were not actually healthy but had an invisible infection. 

 

Is Green Cure a systemic fungicide?  It could be that the Green Cure killed most of the PM but because the PM may not have been present throughout the plant.  The PM maybe was able to come back because there was no Green Cure, or not enough,  in or on the plant to combat the PM.

 

On the other hand, Eagle 20 would be taken into plant tissue and is designed to persist there for several weeks in order to protect the plant against a recurrence.

 

I don't agree that your observations indicate that PM is systemic.  One could make the same observations about mites.  You can spray with mite-rid, pepper juice, tobacco juice and many other products that just stick to the leaves but will kill off many mites.  Most likely, in a few days or weeks, you'll see mites again.  Spray with Fluoramite instead, and the mites will die and most likely not come back for a long time, if at all.  This would be because the Fluoramite persists inside the plant tissue for weeks to months - not because mites are systemic.  This represents the same sort of scenario you describe above and tells us that just because a non-systemic product is effective short-term while a systemic product works long-term, this doesn't tell us if the pest/fungus is systemic or not.

 

Another item worth noting - translaminar pesticides vs. non.  A translaminar pesticide will be present in the translaminar fluid in the leaves.  A non-translaminar will be in the more solid leaf and stem tissue.  Mites don't munch on leaves - they feed more like mosquitos, by sucking fluid out.  So they are generally not affected very well by non-translaminar pesticides, where leaf-munching pests will be affected more by non-translaminar pesticides than translaminar.

[trichcycler]

The mildew is not "in" the plant, but on the surface of it. The infection will cause other metabolic changes if it breaches the plant, and it will, but those symptoms will not return as another mold infection, but an anomaly either visible or not, forever changing its down line. This is one reason some clones will not be perfect replicas of mom.

 

mildew needs some things to survive. I have taken outdoor plants infected with pm into my room, sprayed with a water/neem rinse and no more mold ever on them. I've never seen the pm in the room on a live plant, except on an occasional dying leaf at the base of a clone. I snip it when I see it, but the mildew does not ever spread, because I don't provide it with food and environment to thrive. some plants will mold next to some that will not. It will not spread to another plant if the environment is correct, and the feeding schedule is right. That feeding is the part some growers forget about when controlling molds and pests. Over fed plants will be prone to molding.

 

I take plant material right down to its bare dna, with bleach and alcohol and soap as preparation for culturing. A clone dipped in a bleach/water alcohol/water will forever kill the fungus on the plant, without killing it for thought. Plan water will kill powdery mildew, but a bad environment will invite a new infection possibly. I'm able to plant a cutting after this step, but rarely go that distance for cuttings. I would if they came from elsewhere though.

This does not guarantee that the plant will not someday be abused and infected once again.

 

that's all I know about cannabis pm fungus. It does not appear unless invited. It is easily killed if the invitation is ripped up.

Edited September 10, 2014 by grassmatch

[Wild Bill]

A clone dipped in a bleach/water alcohol/water will forever kill the fungus on the plant,

 

Do both solutions work equally well?

[trichcycler]

I don't know, I use both in culture, one after the other, several times, inside a sonic toothbrush cleaner for a minute or two. some sensitive flesh will die and be browned, ready to trim before planting/culturing.

[Highlander]

I suppose what I am saying is that Green Cure treated mothers (that looked healthy) yielded clones that were infected, and Eagle 20 mother yielded clones that were not, in the same room. I see what you are saying in the mite scenario, but it's a little different as the Eagle 20 was not present in the clones from the mother, as the plant grew out for six months or more after treatment, yet the clones did not develop PM. Under the same scenario with Green Cure, six months of growth without seeing PM, the clones cut from the mother rooted, grew, and stretched with no symptoms whatsoever, but shortly after budding developed PM, when the Green Cure clones were the only plants in the room.

 

It is a slightly different scenario, I think. Even after you describe the mite phenomenon, which I have also seen, it doesn't quite fit, and I am left with the impression that it was a systemic situation.

Ok yes I understand what you mean. Makes sense..

[GanjaWarrior]

I have seen perfectly clean (looking) clones from plants treated with Green Cure develop PM halfway through flowering multiple times. A cut from the same mother, treated with Eagle 20 systemic fungicide, and grown into a new, healthy mother, yielded untreated clones into the same room with the same environmental controls, but no PM halfway through flower.

 

This indicates to me that PM is a systemic infection, and Eagle 20 cured it. I do not think it can be cured with high pH sprays, though certainly controlled to the extent that the environment allows, and the "healthy" clones from the Green Cure treated mother were not actually healthy but had an invisible infection. 

clean looking doesnt mean clean. it is not found inside the plant.  http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/plant_pests/flowers/hgic2049.html

[I wood]

Omnipresent is not the same as systemic. 

Powdery mildew is not systemic even though is may seem that way, it is always around waiting for favorable conditions to do its thing.

Edited September 11, 2014 by I wood

[trichcycler]

If a chemical says "for ornamental use only please keep it away from medicine and indoor grow rooms.

I own a brand new sulphur burner and a jug of sulphur too. Its sat in the dank corner of my grow room for over 5 years on a shelf. If someone local needs to use it I would gladly loan it them for the task.

 

I don't know how to use it, but it seems stupid simple. I use a no brainer dehumidifier instead. This allows my beneficial insects in the room to continue doing their job. I was in a greenhouse during/after a sulphur burn(outside of course). The results are a residue that tastes like a gas chamber and dead or dying bene's. Placement indoors is very important to avoid some of this residue.

Concentrate made with late flower sulphur treatment will taste offish, as will every joint, rip, and dab.

Notice those who say there is no off taste are using sulphur all the time. The ones who tell you that it does leave a residual taste......they use a dehumidifier/ac/heat instead, and never see the mildew in the first place. go figure. an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of poison.

[trichcycler]

Omnipresent is not the same as systemic. 

Powdery mildew is not systemic even though is may seem that way, it is always around waiting for favorable conditions to do it thing.

favorable conditions= humid rooms, over fed plants, scattered dead leaves, water puddles, cold damp nights, lack of air movement, stagnant air, foliar feeding are some.

[trichcycler]

it is puzzling, but there are other factors in play.  When the mold appeared the environmental conditions were actually not dialed in. If no changes to the controls were made we could expect the same problem to arise, as it did. Is it possible that the eagle plant cuttings were flush with the systemic, preventing the attack later, until the plant cutting  recovered from the first attack ? Or feeding schedules were altered and the clones offered little nutrients to feed on(ideally)?

A room full of healthy plants with one showing mildew-- could be a weak plant, on the edge of environmental failure, susceptible to mold, while the others persevere in the same conditions, thanks to their current health, ......or voodoo maybe.   I hand it to the scientists.

 

I do know that environmental parameters (according to Cervantes) set correctly will never allow powdery mildew to thrive on plants. Seems like the easiest way to beat the molds. thanks Jorge!

[Habenero]

My vote goes to voodoo.

[I wood]

Again, I just don't understand given the above scenario how the Eagle 20 presents as "cured" while the PM comes back mid flower in the Green Cure clones. I understand from the reading I have done that it is not systemic; I am posting this information because it puzzles me.

 

Again, there is no actual visible PM anywhere on any plant in either room, nor the mother, for six months or more, then PM mid flower, with no infected plants anywhere prior. A one time shot of Eagle 20 for the mom stopped this pattern for him.

Spores are everywhere and microscopic, opportunistically waiting for the right conditions.

Eagle 20 is systemic, in the plant tissue preventing reinfection for a long time. Eventually the eagle 20 will be gone and the plant will be susceptible to PM again.

There is no cure for PM, just different ways to deal with it.

 

on another note, i believe the active ingredient in green cure is potassium bicarbonate, which raises the ph, creating an unfavorable environment for mold.

Earth juices ph up is pure potassium bicarbonate, 5 ml/1 teaspoon of that and 5ml natural dish soap mixed into a gallon of water kills blooming mold and spores. It has the added benefit of potassium as a foliar feed and can be washed of if desired. Im not knocking green cure, but while reading up late at night before the stores opened up to buy green cure, i discovered i already had the same thing sitting around.

 

Edited because I had quart where it should have said gallon, that would be 4 times the strength and possibly be a problem. Never had any burn or spotting from this ratio.

Edited September 11, 2014 by I wood

[Habenero]

I don't know bunny muffin but I wonder if pm is like a bacteria. The majority of it can be killed off by antibiotics but if you don't use the full course of the antibiotics then the strongest bacteria is left behind to once again propagate. Maybe the majority of pm is killed off leaving a few strong critters that then later emerge and propagate when conditions are ideal? It's that or voodoo. Got an angry friend that you've noticed has 12 little marijuana plant dolls? Confront him.

[I wood]

It's all just an academic exercise at this point, as there is no more PM.

Same here, once i got back to a sealed room with good environmental controls, no mold.

 

I went over 20 years without any pm issues. Ignorance was bliss for me.

Then last year while transitioning into a new permanent space i had to become knowledgeable while operating out of tents in a large cool space.

[AmishRnot4ganja]

I completely understand everything you are saying, but I do not know how to explain this situation. After two years and being cut from the plant which was treated, there is no chance of any trace of Eagle 20, yet still no PM, despite the omnipresence, probably in high concentrations due to the recycled soil, of PM spores in his room, and no changes to environmental controls.

 

Is it possible that PM continues to grow under the high pH conditions with Green Cure, but in an invisible way, infecting the cut clones in such a way that they can grow for weeks without signs of PM, then explode in spots a few weeks into flowering? Nobody else has seen this?

I have discovered the same effects from Eagle 20 in my grow area. One treatment of the mother and none of the clones develop pm, ever.

[trichcycler]

I have discovered the same effects from Eagle 20 in my grow area. One treatment of the mother and none of the clones develop pm, ever.

 

I've had the exact same results, except I never used a fungicide on any plant in the rooms, or treated for powdery mildew. Consider it may have nothing to do with the treatment at all. I bet after a grower sees the mold they will adjust their parameters and equip properly, (if not, why not?)and maybe use a treatment right? just one more vote for voodoo maybe too

[slider7]

lol@weed herpes

 

you may want to look into a sulfur burner as well: http://www.4hydroponics.com/growroom/pest2.asp?ItemNo=sulfurVaporizer

If you want your house to smell like a volcano.

[garyfisher]

Is it possible that PM continues to grow under the high pH conditions with Green Cure, but in an invisible way, infecting the cut clones in such a way that they can grow for weeks without signs of PM, then explode in spots a few weeks into flowering? Nobody else has seen this?

Yes.  Greencure is bunk and works for maybe 3 days.

[slider7]

It's all just an academic exercise at this point, as there is no more PM.

 

 

Eagle20's active ingredient (among other things) is...

 

Myclobutanil!

 

- Shown to cause sterility in test animals

- Myclobutanil is environmentally mobile. It has been found in surface water and in rain, suggesting a potential for atmospheric transport. Due to its persistence, myclobutanil may accumulate in soil with multiple applications

 

- In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (#EPA). 

 

- Myclobutanil can become airborne as a dust. In high concentrations, it can become an explosive mixture in the air. Burning myclobutanil may release toxic fumes (#MSDS).

 

 

 

 

 

YUMMY! SIGN ME UP!

 

As per usual, the easy way is rife with consequences. The mold disappeared because you "infected" your rooms with a toxic poison. Now it sits in your soils and containers and gets distributed time and time again through the plant.

 

 

Keeping a clean room, washing between harvests with sulfur, raising your brix levels to the max and keeping a healthy living organism on the plants tissues is the only way currently to beat the mold without medicating you and how many other people with harmful chemicals.

 

 

 

For anyone saying, "Look, California uses it like crazy, it's fine!". Hey, alright. If that justifies it in your mind, cool.

 

 

Mycologists have our problem times x1000. Their solution? Absolute sterility. The closer you come to that, the less contaminates you will see overall.    

 

 

edit- also I'd like to point out that anyone I have ever helped with PM, usually 99% of the time it's from lazyness. The avid, eagle eyed CG spots tiny problem area's and eliminates outbreaks before the grey tide has a chance to set in! MUWHAAHHA!

Edited January 21, 2015 by slider7

[trichcycler]

  The grow store does not generally carry ac units, dehumidifiers and heaters with thermostats

but they have a spray cure for EVERY marijuana issue.

 

someone will soon invent a one stop shop spray. Feed, insecticide, fungicide, clone, all on one. Just one simple application daily.

order now and receive the all new Lazy Light Spray. Imagine growing without the use of lights even!  Spray it and Forget It !! 

[garyfisher]

Eagle20's active ingredient (among other things) is...

 

Myclobutanil!

 

- Shown to cause sterility in test animals

- Myclobutanil is environmentally mobile. It has been found in surface water and in rain, suggesting a potential for atmospheric transport. Due to its persistence, myclobutanil may accumulate in soil with multiple applications

 

- In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (#EPA). 

 

- Myclobutanil can become airborne as a dust. In high concentrations, it can become an explosive mixture in the air. Burning myclobutanil may release toxic fumes (#MSDS).

This is exactly how propaganda starts.  Someone takes something out of context and makes claims.

 

It's environmentally mobile.  Yes, of course, when irresponsible farmers spray this all over ALL of their crops (i provided a link to show you the food you eat contains myclobutinol residue) it will run off into the surface water and then water tables.  This is common sense.

 

Yes, If animals consume kilograms of this bunny muffin raw, you will be in trouble.  How much residue is in a plant that was sprayed with micrograms while in the clone stage?  If you spray this on flowering plants, you're part of the problem.  You're missing that whole concept of IPM, buddy. 

 

Large concentrations of dust can form an explosive mixture??  Let me inform everyone on here since many may not know...  Large piles of dust of anything can spontaneously combust.  This is a HUGE hazard working with any type of dust.  So it would be inevitable that large piles of myclo dust could explode.  Likewise, large piles of flour dust could explode killing 14 workers.  Should we shun flour as well?

 

 

Your solution is to grow in an aseptic HEPA filtered sterile environment?  Get real.  People do this bunny muffin in outside greenhouses without mold problems. Sterile environment is not the solution.

 

One thing I will agree with you on is laziness.  But if you happen to receive a cutting that is infected and it infects your entire room, I hardly attribute this to laziness.

Edited January 21, 2015 by garyfisher

[Highlander]

I'll confess that I used Eagle 20 a few years ago.  It was a particularly hot/humid summer, and the PM invaded.  Luckily, clean garden habits kept it at bay.  I sprayed the "mother" plants with Eagle 20 and cut clones a couple of weeks later.  After the clones rooted and grew a few inches, I removed all of the older leaves.  As the clones grew, I topped them.  So by the time the clones grew past 12 inches, there was very little of the original plant cutting left - just the stalk - all of the leaves that were sprayed were long gone.  After vegging these plants for to 6-8 weeks and then flowering them for 8+ weeks, it is hard to imagine  that any significant concentration of Eagle 20 remained in that plant. 

 

I can appreciate that we/people want clean and organic meds.  But you have to draw a line somewhere.  Some people will go to the grocery store and pay double for "organic" produce, but  then they stop at the gas station on the way home and pay no attention as to whether the gas nozzle has a vapor shield on it and then spend five minutes breathing in gas vapors.  Or they hit the remote start button on the car in the garage, and carbon monoxide infiltrates the house.  Or they take their "Sunday best" to the dry cleaners and don't give a second thought to the real problem that their dry-cleaned clothes are off-gassing residual chlorinated dry cleaning solvents. 

 

A few years ago, I was asked by a local church to conduct vapor testing in their building because they had just installed new carpet and wanted to make sure that the congregation was safe from volatile compounds.  Guess what we found?  The church was free of volatile contaminants every day but Sunday - why?  Because people were wearing their dry-cleaned clothes to church on Sunday and the clothes themselves off-gassed enough vapor to trigger an air quality concern.

 

I find it a bit ironic that a lot of people are laser-focused on what contaminants might be in their meds but they are clueless when it comes to what contaminants they encounter (at much higher levels) through everyday life.

[Indigro]

Highlander... u r exactly right imo... our exposures to chemical contaminants is daily & from every aspect of modern life... food, water, air, clothes, soaps, building materials, etc, etc, etc. One day it will be common knowledge that a lot of our lt health concerns are man-made & cumulative. Id bet bottom dollar that is what is happening w the rapid increase in autism.

 

 

Re the 'laziness' factot of chemming... it is far from an easy experience properly & safely applying them. Its a real drag, and u feel like going all sorts of silkwood afterwards. Not only do u have to suit up (full body coverage, nitrile gloves, paint fume respirator, tight goggles), but have to make sure about shutting down the fans, ac, deuy, & observe rei guidelines. Everywhere thathas splash/overspray is further contaminated, which on a full room app, means everywhere... so the next day requires another suit up & wipe down/clean up. Its an ordeal, not easy. Even working a single gallon for clone dips (no spraying) is a process. I'd rather trim, toss garbage, mix substrate, or transplant vs doing a chem app. Its an ordeal, that is best avoided no doubt... but it aint 'easy' nor for the 'lazy'.

 

Hell, any treatment requires work... even a sulfur burner. Cleaning up the room/equipment from that is a project unto itself.

 

The 'lazy' way to deal w mold is to prevent it on the front side... proper climate control/equipment, policies/procedures to avoid possible contamination, and running healthy/robust gals. This is far easier imo.

 

Btw... w my recent chem posts... I am not a fan of using them (hopefully that came off), but there is a time/place/procedure to use them safely/properly. Iv had pm twice (personally), each time w a move & loss of control of the environment + outdoor exposures during that process... and treated everything as cuts w a dip & swirl. But iv also been paid to treat some big ops too... done proper & safely, but for a massive chunk of change. After all, its an ordeal + a potential carcinogenic exposure. Just to clarify from where my posts come.

 

Stay safe everyone... I need a shower now just from talking about it so much.

[trichcycler]

Many common contaminates are incidental and largely unavoidable. Mold is an avoidable symptom To choose a commercial fungicide for a medicinal smoked product, one that has not been approved for cannabis, illegally applying it to the crop itself, and using our own "tests" and anecdotal evidence of efficacy and safety seems strange to me, and some patients too.

 

 Its more difficult to maintain a proper ac unit, working dehumidifier, and outrageous electric bills...than to spray a long lasting treatment on our medicine instead. Big agri does it, and we complain to no end. Some of us consume some of it, and some do not.

 

We're dropping like flies of strange bizarre cancers,( I saw tumors with teeth today, hermaphrodite birthrate is higher than ever) tumors, endocrine issues, diabetes, we got it all.  Strange we of all people would reach for a chem spray instead of employing proper controls. I didn't invent the controls or the parameters. I read a book that listed them.  We shout about cannabis cancer  cures, then allow our gardens to suffer to the point of needing a carcinogenic commercial fungicide to $ave.. .....for the cost of a larger ac unit/heater/dehumidifier.

 

Rare genetics deserve top controls set with proven parameters. Sick patients deserve the same imo. Growing medicine indoors for strangers and friends should not be a hit or miss venture, and it is not for many. There are very specific controls commonly available to avoid plant disease, chems, and loss. 

 

I suggest aspiring growers save up until they can purchase the correct equipment necessary to avoid issues. I followed one program of settings and never adjusted them again. year after year, I do the same thing and enjoy the same results.

 

It occurs to me that the types of patients seeking me out are often the types that do not want sprays on their medicine. There is a place for every grower surely.

My patients tell me moldy foods should be discarded, not sprayed and cleaned before consumed. If they found out I was using chems they would move on.

 

as long as mold sufferers seek advice from mold sufferers the problem will be forever it appears.

Edited January 22, 2015 by grassmatch