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Tarzan Needs Help ...


drtarzanmd

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I'm still rocking the party my friend with a new name (Garfield ok'd).

Glad you love my Bubba Cut, I'll have something new and special for you real soon.

I'll make the trip for the next meeting. Hope all is well. :thumbsu:

 

 

Im a little slow lately 'MosCutty'

 

Yes Your Bubba Kush is one of my Favorit Strains ...

Thanks to You ... :thumbsu:

 

Our next meeting is :

 

January 18th , 2011

New Time : 5 - 7 pm

 

Open Public Meeting

 

Hope All is well w/ you and the Family

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I would like to debate "EXACT".

 

"I" do not think your getting an exact...

 

Rather an "ON" or "OFF" DNA/RNA variant of the "EXACT"... Of the "Mother plant".

 

I have seen clones do unusual growth traits compared to it's mother's plant dominant growth attributes.

 

I have had this conversation with several "plant" people.... AND it appears there is still some debate to obtaining an "EXACT" copy through cloning.

 

A clone may have certain DNA or RNA traits turned "ON" or "OFF" while YOUR grow/harvest that may have not been witnessed previously.

 

So, it is in "MY" opinion your getting a very similar copy which may have certain traits turned "ON" or "OFF"... In other words, some growth directives may be turned ON or OFF during YOUR grow/harvest with the clone copy.

 

If we were to spread out 100 clones (FROM THE SAME MOTHER) via this board and document it's progress I would bet several of them would appear slightly different and even produce a slightly different flower... AND yes some of the differences would be due to environment and nutes---- **BUT a big part would be what was cut off from the "MOTHER" which supplied the dominant DNA/RNA features of that particular cutting**. I do think (or KNOW) on a "MOTHER" plant there will be variables on the plant's growth directives over time.

 

THIS IS WHAT A "SPORT" IS.

 

Here is a link for a better understanding- Sports on ROSES

 

 

A little background what a sport is to ROSES if you don't want to look at the link-

 

"Sports - or mutations - do not always materialise in the form of colour differences. Sometimes a new shoot with a 'different' characteristic will be just as important. For example, most climbing roses, started life a a sport or mutation on a well known parent rose. That is how we have got 'Climbing Iceberg' and 'Climbing Ena Harkness'. Someone was observant enough to realise that the vigorous shoot sent up by the ordinary floribunda rose 'Iceberg', was not mistaken as a 'sucker' but as a very valuable vigorous shoot that enabled it to 'climb'. The shoot was then propagated by the normal process of budding, and we ended up with 'Climbing Iceberg."

 

If you cut a sport you can create a new strain from "ONE" DNA/RNA variables from the "MOTHER" plant.

 

So that being understood--- You can obtain several genetic differences from one mother in which cuttings were obtained.

 

Especially since many strains are very UNSTABLE due to all the crossing which is common in today's breeding programs.

 

Yes, this is a "different" perspective --- But I fell it's important for Dr. Tarzan's initial question.

 

There are variables in the plants DNA/RNA... A CLONE is NOT necessarily an EXACT... Although very similar.

 

 

Even "Germ Plasm" contain slight variables-- Although it appears to be a more exact genetic distribution/transfer if "controlled properly".

 

 

It's an interesting discussion/debate.... One that is being pursued by many imaginative "HIGH END HUMAN THOUGHT MACHINES".

 

:skydive:

 

I had a few grammar mistakes... :angry:

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Hey Tarz!, I have been doing some cloning from clones and getting flowering plants from perpetual cloning, LOL! sounded funny, must be the meds. I have done this with three strains so far for over 3 months, e.g Purple Kush, IG13, and lemon cake. I was going to discontinue this last lemon cake clone, but might not now. It has taken on the appearence of a different plant, and almost looks like a cousin of the Purple Kush now, but more stretchy. Has those weird longated 3 and 4 leaflets on leaves like the pk, and darker green than usual (no increased fert or same soil). The other two strains look the same though. I read online about "Genetic Drifting" in cloneing clone after clone, and it stated on many different sites that the THC stays the same or even have found to be better in some cases. But the plant starts to yield less, and can deform. But not an expert, just done some reading.... Now I am going to clone this and find out what kind of evil exists....Muahahahahahahhahahahaha! (lightning) (crash, boom - thunder) LMAO!:devil::sword::thumbsu:http://s851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/motownbass/ go here to see the plant pics.

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I had always grown from seed and just started growing from clones about a year ago. About a year ago I started taking clones from my plants before they went into flower. Then when those clones grow enough I take a clone from them and put the larger plants into flower, so I only have rooting clones and small plants in veg.

 

Anyway, it's only been a year so I'm only about 5 generations into this, but I haven't seen any noticeable difference yet in plant growth, stretch, nutrient requirements or yield.

 

Like Motownbass says above, I have read of changes over time, but as I recall that's generally time periods like 5-10 years or more.

 

Sometimes growers speak from experience, saying "Hey, back in the day, 10 years ago, this strain yielded more / smelled better / rooted faster / was just better than it is today". Is this truth or just misinterpreted memories? dunno.

 

Sometimes growers try to throw in some Science, saying "Hey, haven't you heard of Genetic Drift / Epigenetic changes, Man?"

 

The scientific studies I've glanced at covering this seem to refer to serious stress on a plant leading to measurable changes in clones generations down the line. See this 2006 article in Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7106/full/nature05022.html

 

... We conclude that environmental factors lead to increased genomic flexibility even in successive, untreated generations, and may increase the potential for adaptation.

 

So, like Seedfro says above there is some Science to back up the idea that clones can change, but they may not. You probably have better chances of clones staying true if the plants are always healthy and happy in the cloning/veg. stages.

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I had always grown from seed and just started growing from clones about a year ago. About a year ago I started taking clones from my plants before they went into flower. Then when those clones grow enough I take a clone from them and put the larger plants into flower, so I only have rooting clones and small plants in veg.

 

Anyway, it's only been a year so I'm only about 5 generations into this, but I haven't seen any noticeable difference yet in plant growth, stretch, nutrient requirements or yield.

 

Like Motownbass says above, I have read of changes over time, but as I recall that's generally time periods like 5-10 years or more.

 

Sometimes growers speak from experience, saying "Hey, back in the day, 10 years ago, this strain yielded more / smelled better / rooted faster / was just better than it is today". Is this truth or just misinterpreted memories? dunno.

 

Sometimes growers try to throw in some Science, saying "Hey, haven't you heard of Genetic Drift / Epigenetic changes, Man?"

 

The scientific studies I've glanced at covering this seem to refer to serious stress on a plant leading to measurable changes in clones generations down the line. See this 2006 article in Nature:

 

So, like Seedfro says above there is some Science to back up the idea that clones can change, but they may not. You probably have better chances of clones staying true if the plants are always healthy and happy in the cloning/veg. stages.

 

I have'nt changed anything as far as room temps, humidity, etc... But however, the strain that this is happening to is not a stable genotype. The strain as I mentioned before is Lemon Cake. From my understanding, was developed here in Michigan, and was originally going to be named "alphabet soup" because it has alot of different strains crossed together.

I just thought this info was interesting to anyone that may be cloning this strain, to maybe see if theirs is doing the same. Plus when you get folks to start breeding mm, there's alot to this kind of science that is beyond a beginner breeder. If the fella that developed this strain was just cross-pollination with many females and males, then it would be very unstable, would'nt it? So this would cause this particular strain to deform more than the stable F1 type bean plants.

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I would like to debate "EXACT".

 

"I" do not think your getting an exact...

 

Rather an "ON" or "OFF" DNA/RNA variant of the "EXACT"... Of the "Mother plant".

 

I have seen clones do unusual growth traits compared to it's mother's plant dominant growth attributes.

 

I have had this conversation with several "plant" people.... AND it appears there is still some debate to obtaining an "EXACT" copy through cloning.

 

A clone may have certain DNA or RNA traits turned "ON" or "OFF" while YOUR grow/harvest that may have not been witnessed previously.

 

So, it is in "MY" opinion your getting a very similar copy which may have certain traits turned "ON" or "OFF"... In other words, some growth directives may be turned ON or OFF during YOUR grow/harvest with the clone copy.

 

If we were to spread out 100 clones (FROM THE SAME MOTHER) via this board and document it's progress I would bet several of them would appear slightly different and even produce a slightly different flower... AND yes some of the differences would be due to environment and nutes---- **BUT a big part would be what was cut off from the "MOTHER" which supplied the dominant DNA/RNA features of that particular cutting**. I do think (or KNOW) on a "MOTHER" plant there will be variables on the plant's growth directives over time.

 

THIS IS WHAT A "SPORT" IS.

 

Here is a link for a better understanding- Sports on ROSES

 

 

A little background what a sport is to ROSES if you don't want to look at the link-

 

"Sports - or mutations - do not always materialise in the form of colour differences. Sometimes a new shoot with a 'different' characteristic will be just as important. For example, most climbing roses, started life a a sport or mutation on a well known parent rose. That is how we have got 'Climbing Iceberg' and 'Climbing Ena Harkness'. Someone was observant enough to realise that the vigorous shoot sent up by the ordinary floribunda rose 'Iceberg', was not mistaken as a 'sucker' but as a very valuable vigorous shoot that enabled it to 'climb'. The shoot was then propagated by the normal process of budding, and we ended up with 'Climbing Iceberg."

 

If you cut a sport you can create a new strain from "ONE" DNA/RNA variables from the "MOTHER" plant.

 

So that being understood--- You can obtain several genetic differences from one mother in which cuttings were obtained.

 

Especially since many strains are very UNSTABLE due to all the crossing which is common in today's breeding programs.

 

Yes, this is a "different" perspective --- But I fell it's important for Dr. Tarzan's initial question.

 

There are variables in the plants DNA/RNA... A CLONE is NOT necessarily an EXACT... Although very similar.

 

 

Even "Germ Plasm" contain slight variables-- Although it appears to be a more exact genetic distribution/transfer if "controlled properly".

 

 

It's an interesting discussion/debate.... One that is being pursued by many imaginative "HIGH END HUMAN THOUGHT MACHINES".

 

:skydive:

 

I had a few grammar mistakes... :angry:

 

Thats an interesting read.... Im not sure how I understand how it can be anything but a genetic clone..... where does a clone get its genetics from if not the mother plant? all cutting may have defects.... but only if that genes is found in the mother plant. Can odd growth in clones not come from......the stress of cutting it off the plant and rooting it?but like i said where does the genetic material come from if not the mother?

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Hey Motownbass,

 

I hadn't thought too much about different varieties having different sensitivities or being more prone to change over time. If you have a 'chicken soup' of a genotype, though, I suppose it may be more likely to change. There would be more of a variety of genes in your Lemon Cake than in more stabilized strains, so it would have more different characteristics to be expressed given a chance.

 

My strains that seem stable through cloning generations came from Canadian seeds: White Widow and Sour Diesel (I trust the White Widow, but since the Diesel was from seed it's likely a cross, maybe a cross with something a bit purple and fruity smelling).

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I have'nt changed anything as far as room temps, humidity, etc... But however, the strain that this is happening to is not a stable genotype. The strain as I mentioned before is Lemon Cake. From my understanding, was developed here in Michigan, and was originally going to be named "alphabet soup" because it has alot of different strains crossed together.

I just thought this info was interesting to anyone that may be cloning this strain, to maybe see if theirs is doing the same. Plus when you get folks to start breeding mm, there's alot to this kind of science that is beyond a beginner breeder. If the fella that developed this strain was just cross-pollination with many females and males, then it would be very unstable, would'nt it? So this would cause this particular strain to deform more than the stable F1 type bean plants.

 

 

Yes, I would assume so... But ya never know until "time" proves it to YOU.

 

Ya may have a valid plant case... AND that's why you "could" have something which is slightly different than who had worked with it earlier... Let me stress ya "COULD" have a clone which is a little wacky and not as stable as many other clones>>>>? Which is a great debate/discussion.-- Although I would think it would be proper plant etiquette to give PROPS to the founding creator of the clone.

 

Only time and a desire to find out what "could" happen will answer that potential grow scenario.-- AND it may always be a QUESTION to some???

 

Medicine should not be a victim of confused politics (or whatever ya want to call it)... That being understood, I also understand and value the work and visions of others.

 

OK, well-

 

Many breeders take a strain and hand pick their own traits within the multiple possibilities of each generation. The hope is to have a stable F2, F3, F4 and so on based on another breeders vision.

 

Develop a L.C. F3, F4, etc... and "I" think ya have a VERY VALID argument and direction.

 

:skydive:

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Thats an interesting read.... Im not sure how I understand how it can be anything but a genetic clone..... where does a clone get its genetics from if not the mother plant? all cutting may have defects.... but only if that genes is found in the mother plant. Can odd growth in clones not come from......the stress of cutting it off the plant and rooting it?but like i said where does the genetic material come from if not the mother?

 

The idea finally sunk in for me when I thought of it like this:

  • All the cells in your body, or in a plant, carry basically the same genetic payload. Since your nose looks different than your toes, or the plant's roots are different than the buds, there is something else controlling the growth besides raw DNA.
  • Plants change over time. Even new growth is different, depending on the history of the plant.
  • All those fancy-pants 'Science' people keep saying that this happens. Just Kidding, I love science. Try a search on Google Scholar, and then read till your brain hurts:
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=epigenetic+changes+clone+plant

 

http://www.biol.unlp.edu.ar/biotecnologiaorganismossuperiores/seminario1a.pdf

 

Somaclonal variation is manifested as cytological abnormalities, frequent qualitative and quantitative phenotypic

mutation, sequence change, and gene activation and silencing. Activation of quiescent transposable elements

and retrotransposons indicate that epigenetic changes occur through the culture process. Epigenetic activation

of DNA elements further suggests that epigenetic changes may also be involved in cytogenetic instability through

modification of heterochromatin, and as a basis of phenotypic variation through the modulation of gene function.

The observation that DNA methylation patterns are highly variable among regenerated plants and their progeny

provides evidence that DNA modifications are less stable in culture than in seed-grown plants.Future research

will determine the relative importance of epigenetic versus sequence or chromosome variation in conditioning

somaclonal variation in plants.

 

Ouch, that hurt my brain.

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GanjaWarrior-

 

That's the tip of the wave for many researcher's... know this, there starting to... "GET IT".... AND poke their curiosity in there.

 

There are many survival mechanisms which are utilized by plants (and all living things for that matter), which are triggered by the surrounding environment... Yep it's EVOLVING.... Quicker than most researchers initially presumed.

 

When I have a bit more time... I will elaborate what I understand.

 

The Ganja plant is no different than most... And does carry many unique genes which can spontaneously turn "ON".

 

It's really an amazing dance of chemical and such things... If ya like to be geeky about it take a peek here.

 

It's kind of easy to digest- AND it "KIND OF" relates to these thoughts.

 

 

:skydive:

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GanjaWarrior-

 

That's the tip of the wave for many researcher's... know this, there starting to... "GET IT".... AND poke their curiosity in there.

 

There are many survival mechanisms which are utilized by plants (and all living things for that matter), which are triggered by the surrounding environment... Yep it's EVOLVING.... Quicker than most researchers initially presumed.

 

When I have a bit more time... I will elaborate what I understand.

 

The Ganja plant is no different than most... And does carry many unique genes which can spontaneously turn "ON".

 

It's really an amazing dance of chemical and such things... If ya like to be geeky about it take a peek here.

 

It's kind of easy to digest- AND it "KIND OF" relates to these thoughts.

 

 

:skydive:

 

 

Now if ya had time to watch the video... Then ya could presume these following thoughts may relate "TO OUR THOUGHTS IN THIS THREAD" in this "puzzle-like" fashion.... AND how it "MAY" apply to L.C. question... AND YES, this is debatable-

 

Here we go- ( "MY" analogy)

 

The "COP" ya saw, right?... Well, just imagine something like "Alphabet Soup"-

 

OK, back to the "COP"... In a situation where there is little stability within the plants genes then what you create is the potential for multiple cops with different interpretations of the "LEGAL COOKING SYSTEM".

 

AND the "COOK" who makes all the recipes does not stick to one specialty dish... Rather multiple one's, and this is replicated through the cell division (production) in some fashion of the organism "TIME LINE".

 

It can be said--- YOU HAVE A VERY ECCENTRIC COOK, dealing with multiple "officers" which have different interpretations of the "cooking law" who give permission for different tastes of a very recent genetic soup (**not stable, chicken soup, mushroom soup, beef barley, etc.**).

 

In time ya can control this through selective breeding within several generations of Backcrossing... But the "mutant" potential is far greater at the earlier stages of the "controlled" stability pursuit.

 

Backcrossing INFO. - LINK

 

Now how this relates to the clone is interesting and debatable although it goes to show you how randomly shuffled the L.C. clone "could be" and what it could do over the course of it's genetic "TIME" of drifting and "COOKING INSTRUCTIONS".

 

:skydive:

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