Jump to content

Caregivers And The Cause


Scooter
 Share

Recommended Posts

I was really surprised at the strong reactions to my actions at the Rally. I wasn't there promoting a business, I was there to be charitable to those in need and to show that a "true" caregiver can supply his patients with more than medicine. As I am a patient myself, I transfer any extra medicine I can spare ( my registered patients always come first ) to other registered patients, at a VERY reasonable service fee. Ask anyone on this site that I have transferred to.

 

I am one Caregiver, with 5 patients and one facility of 48 plants. It is 32' x 18'. Not a "Large Scale Facility", wouldn't you agree? As I am a member of a group of like minded individuals who have teamed up to help the very sick and terminal patients free of charge. There are 12 of us total, and if each of us chips in $200 a week we can help a patient by supplying him/her with $2400 for expenses. We do this all the time, and sorry to say Blueberry and no disrespect but your numbers regarding me were way off. You need to take those figures and divide them by 12; then you'll be in the ball park. And the funeral number you provided is almost 3 times what the cost is ( at least in my neck of the woods ). And my trimmers work intermittently throughout the year; they work steady for about a month then it's 3-4 days a month. The GCCA is together, but separate because of possible federal issues.

 

WE are the answer to dispensaries. I couldn't look a patient in the eye and say "$110 for a 1/8 transfer", let alone the gram prices they charge. THAT is greed and sickness; they are the drain on the community. If a patient can't afford us ( and most can because our prices are so low ), we will do our level best to accommodate them. But I have yet to hear anything but praise for our medicine, our prices, and our compassion.

 

BTW Blueberry, I was the individual holding the 2 bull horns during the rally before the main system was turned on in case you don't remember me. And you didn't even realize what transferring had and was occurring. Discretion is the better part of valor, and I am very discreet regarding many things ( except my political and legal beliefs lol ). Semper Fi, friend. We need to get out of the shadows and into the light; we are not bad nor illegal people.

Edited by Scooter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

You said you give away $200 a week? I take in $250 a week BEFORE expenses from my 5. Then I pay the expenses like power bill, equipment, nutes, and end up with a $100 a week left over MAYBE in the long run. I'm a good grower and I'm not wasting any money. Your business model leaves a lot out of it. You have to be collecting a lot of cash from some people. Nothing I can see happening from 5 poor patients. When you simplify your business model there's a lot missing for it to make sense.

 

Do me a favor and tell me how much your 5 legal patients pay you a week. Then show me what you have left after expenses. Show a total, THEN tell me all you do with all that cash left over. Let's make this a little more clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I stated prior, they pay $0. And I previously stated I grow outdoors in a greenhouse. Indoor grows are far less cost effective, so I understand the limitations there. I only grow 8 plants per patient, and of course they are quite large, thus I store them in whole form. I do make a living, but I give away a minimum of 50% of my earnings. I limit myself to $25,000 a year, $5,000 of which is for my daughters college fund. I buried her mother a month ago today. She is twelve, and I am the only one who can give her a future.

Edited by Scooter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

As I stated prior, they pay $0. And I previously stated I grow outdoors in a greenhouse. Indoor grows are far less cost effective, so I understand the limitations there. I do make a living, but I give away a minimum of 50% of my earnings. I limit myself to $25,000 a year, $5,000 of which is for my daughters college fund. I buried her mother a month ago today. She is twelve, and I am the only one who can give her a future.

In my opinion, your only legal income is from your 5 registered patients. You said you collect zero. That means you have zero legal dollars to offer as charity. You might have a suitcases full of money from diverting your overages to the recreational market. That is not a good business model in my opinion. And it definitely isn't something you want to talk about on the internet. You might be doing a lot of people a lot of good. But it isn't the model we need for public consumption. It will not fly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought you could make a patient to patient donation outside of your patients? Did I receive the wrong info? if the info is correct that you can make a donation, how is the donation classified with the state law or taxes? Im not sure just trying to get the facts straight. thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ Happy Guy, why? You stated no viable argument against it. And it's flying quite well as a model. It legally provides high quality meds at a low cost, and helps the patients far more than any dispensary. My registered patients pay for NOTHING. Nothing at all, no nutrients, upkeep, genetics, nothing. And I stated my transfers outside my patient base go to other legal patients, which again is 100% legal. NOTHING is sent to the black market.We have cut off patients when it was discovered they were doing this. Please explain your position in depth.

Edited by Scooter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought you could make a patient to patient donation outside of your patients? Did I receive the wrong info? if the info is correct that you can make a donation, how is the donation classified with the state law or taxes? Im not sure just trying to get the facts straight. thanks

 

IF you are a patient, you can. And you CAN be compensated ( not ARE, it's in the law ). The tax issues are still being hammered out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said you give away $200 a week? I take in $250 a week BEFORE expenses from my 5. Then I pay the expenses like power bill, equipment, nutes, and end up with a $100 a week left over MAYBE in the long run. I'm a good grower and I'm not wasting any money. Your business model leaves a lot out of it. You have to be collecting a lot of cash from some people. Nothing I can see happening from 5 poor patients. When you simplify your business model there's a lot missing for it to make sense.

 

Do me a favor and tell me how much your 5 legal patients pay you a week. Then show me what you have left after expenses. Show a total, THEN tell me all you do with all that cash left over. Let's make this a little more clear.

 

If it honestly costs you $600 per month to run your facility, then of course you aren't in it for money. I applaud you for your help, and I'm sure you at least get relatively free medicine for yourself. I'm sorry you can't do what I do, but what you do do does help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

okay thanks for reply..."hammered out" means going in a positive direction or negative?

Hopefully for the better. It's more of finding a way to legally report income without fear of the Feds ( IRS ). I was a Home Health Care worker, and I filed as such. I believe ( and so does the accountant ) that this will work, with receipts from patients for "services rendered".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

If it honestly costs you $600 per month to run your facility, then of course you aren't in it for money. I applaud you for your help, and I'm sure you at least get relatively free medicine for yourself. I'm sorry you can't do what I do, but what you do do does help.

Yeah. I sorry I can't admit to what you are doing too. It's illegal and if I said I was doing that, and legal caregiving, it might get in the way of my legal caregiving. That would be a darn shame. I think you can understand that. When I talk about what I do I will stay on the right side of the wide black line. No grey area stuff in public. It's what we need to do to fight the war for hearts and minds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

IF you are a patient, you can. And you CAN be compensated ( not ARE, it's in the law ). The tax issues are still being hammered out.

You can legally be compensated by your 5 registered patients. Don't try to declare anything else, for your own good. It would be better to show a loss or a very slight income. We all know real patients are, for the most part, poor. Where would they get all that money for you to pay taxes on? Don't get caught up in a complicated mess of ins and outs. Just figure what the 5(or less) paid you, subtract ALL your expenses and see that you made very little money and call it a wash. Really, you would only have to declare what your patient deducted on their taxes for medical expenses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

@ Happy Guy, why? You stated no viable argument against it. And it's flying quite well as a model. It legally provides high quality meds at a low cost, and helps the patients far more than any dispensary. My registered patients pay for NOTHING. Nothing at all, no nutrients, upkeep, genetics, nothing. And I stated my transfers outside my patient base go to other legal patients, which again is 100% legal. NOTHING is sent to the black market.We have cut off patients when it was discovered they were doing this. Please explain your position in depth.

The State Police here, and Rhode Island amendment law over there, only cover transfer for NO PROFIT. What you are saying you are doing flies in the face of what the State Police here recommended, and what Rhode Island worked to get an amendment for. The opposition is against profit taking with medical cannabis transfers. There is no clear mandate for making money off of patient to patient transfers even if you give some of it away to charity. There are things telling you that it isn't totally acceptable today. It's not a model we can push in public.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before claiming mmj-related deductions then filing IRS returns, first study IRS Section 280E. My CPA says 280E excludes such deductions and claiming them may be cause for an IRS audit.

I think what happy guy is saying is to take the deduction off of the income before you declare it. Not list any of it as "deductions" but say you make $1000 in a year off your patients, and spend $800 on supplies, only claim you made $200.

 

That I believe is illegal and puts you subject to an audit.

 

Where Rhode Island states no consideration is paid for it, our law doesn't. P2P transfers for money have been upheld several times in court here in MI. I know it hasn't made it to the supreme court, but until it does, some of us will choose to travel the path that has been upheld by judges, and not just what some LEO said.

 

Cedar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

I think what happy guy is saying is to take the deduction off of the income before you declare it. Not list any of it as "deductions" but say you make $1000 in a year off your patients, and spend $800 on supplies, only claim you made $200.

 

That I believe is illegal and puts you subject to an audit.

 

Where Rhode Island states no consideration is paid for it, our law doesn't. P2P transfers for money have been upheld several times in court here in MI. I know it hasn't made it to the supreme court, but until it does, some of us will choose to travel the path that has been upheld by judges, and not just what some LEO said.

 

Cedar

If your patient didn't declare it how are you going to get audited? Better find out how much your patient declared first before you get the cart before the horse and get all scared about an audit. There are a lot of expenses that can be deducted.

 

Rhode Island has our wording. They added an amendment to allow for patient to patient transfers FOR NO MONEY! Understand? We are a step back from even doing it, let alone charging for it. There is no court case that approaches the monetary aspect and says you can profit from it. I could be wrong, show me one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your patient didn't declare it how are you going to get audited? Better find out how much your patient declared first before you get the cart before the horse and get all scared about an audit. There are a lot of expenses that can be deducted.

 

Rhode Island has our wording. They added an amendment to allow for patient to patient transfers FOR NO MONEY! Understand? We are a step back from even doing it, let alone charging for it. There is no court case that approaches the monetary aspect and says you can profit from it. I could be wrong, show me one.

 

http://www.hubbardlaw.com/medical-marijuana/isabella-county-court-rules-medical-marihuana-dispensary-operates-within-state-law

 

The members then purchase or sell the medical marihuana among other members. Frequently, a registered primary caregiver receives permission from his or her registered qualifying patient to store such patient's marihuana at defendants' business and to sell such marihuana to other members. Thus, the registered qualifying patient owns the medical marihuana at all times. Defendants' business does not own, purchase or sell any marihuana; however, defendants collect locker rental fees, membership fees, and receive 20% of the sales price per transfer. The business also pays a sales tax to the State of Michigan for each transfer.

 

The court found that "patient-to-patient transfers and deliveries of marihuana between registered qualifying patients fall soundly within medical use of marihuana as defined by the MMMA." Accordingly, the court denied Plaintiff's request for a preliminary injunction.

 

 

Right there is a judge saying you can buy and sell to any registered person, and make a profit from it. Compassionate Apothecary in Mount Pleasant, there are tons of articles online about it. Having been given evidence that people were charging money for transfers, and the dispensary was charging a 20% fee on each transfer, the judge still ruled that this was legal.

 

Not all judges agree with this ruling, however like I said, until this reaches the supreme court, some of us can choose to go by this.

Cedar

Edited by CedarSpringsCG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

I stand corrected on the transfers for money court case. I hope it makes it all the way. It's not something that is firm at this time.

 

You can't argue with what I said about Rhode Island though. It's all in black and white. No grey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't argue about RI. You are correct on that one.

 

I would rather our system allow compensation. Even if it were limited or something, because I can tell you that if I had overages, living out in BFE like I do, I would rather throw them on a bonfire than drive around meeting people to transfer. However if I could pay my electricity from it and gas to drive around and do it, I would rather do that.

 

RI also has a higher carry limit too. I would like ours changed to that as if you have a grow failure and have to start over from scratch, 2.5 oz isn't a lot.

 

We will have to see how it pans out here once all the appeals are done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am deeply troubled by all this. My stomach is tied up in knots. For many months, this rally was planned. It only takes one mistake to ruin all our hard work. If a deed was done in true compassion, there's no need to draw attention to the doer. Now the whole world knows. Oh goody for the man who seized the spotlight, bragging about what he did! Do you need attention that badly? At first I truly believed it was purely an act of compassion. Good deeds are done every day, without fanfare. Hey, I need attention too, but a good deed speaks for itself. The more I read of this, the more I feel, I'm sorry to have to think, admit, and say this, because it really hurts, but someone needs to seriously consider the consequences. What I'm trying to say in a tactful, diplomatic way is, I think scooter is a liability to our community and the whole movement. I was so happy to see that other thread locked, moments after I requested it, usually my wishes don't happen that quickly, if at all. Now we have to do damage control. It's bad enough our image is in question, it's bad enough our motives are questioned, it's bad enough WE are the target of unscrupulous people who only see us as dollar signs. So scooter didn't charge, it's WHERE he did it, then to draw attention to himself...When he first announced he'd be bringing meds to give away, I assumed it'd be in the medicine room. Hey scooter, THE WHOLE WORLD'S WATCHING, you're in the spotlight now, are you happy??? I don't wanna be put into a further compromising position than we already are, without that kind of "help." While I agree we have to come out of the shadows, NOW is NOT the time and THAT was NOT the place! We come out of the shadows in ways that work within the law, through our letters, phonecalls, protests, meeting with our reps, doing testimonials, documentaries, Compassion clubs, going to meetings, working with eachother as well as with well established groups like this one, which has many successes. So NOW WHAT? My heart is so torn up over this, I'm not sure what to do for the next rally. I can't believe he came back to start this again and was allowed to do so, especially after all that has already been said. My heart is sunk. IF I were thinking clearly when he approached me, I would've found a way to alert Bb discretely and he could've handled it, taken scooter off somewhere to quietly ask him to leave. Too bad I was so tired and sore, trying to sleep on a bus, riding for many hours, that I didn't think clearly enough not to say something more than what I said to scooter. Even if I were in dire need I would've turned it down. The purest, most totally trusting little girl part of me believed he was doing the right thing at the time. He wasn't quite on the steps when he approached me, he was behind the chain in front of the steps, but still that doesn't make it any better.

 

This is an extremely serious situation and I just hope we can overcome it and make sure it NEVER EVER happens again. The medicine room was open, he should've gone there. End of discussion. If I had my way, all of this would be stripped from here but the cat is out of the bag now. No amount of words can begin to describe how I feel.

 

Sincerely, Sb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can legally be compensated by your 5 registered patients. Don't try to declare anything else, for your own good. It would be better to show a loss or a very slight income. We all know real patients are, for the most part, poor. Where would they get all that money for you to pay taxes on? Don't get caught up in a complicated mess of ins and outs. Just figure what the 5(or less) paid you, subtract ALL your expenses and see that you made very little money and call it a wash. Really, you would only have to declare what your patient deducted on their taxes for medical expenses.

 

Huh?

 

someone as close-minded as you should not be claiming sainthood...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

Huh?

 

someone as close-minded as you should not be claiming sainthood...

Tell you what, I started one of the first CC's in this state before anyone had cards. Before there were even forms yet. I met a LOT of patients while I was running that cc. They were all poor. I take that back, one guy was rich. He had his valet with him at the meeting. But, for the most part, the patients didn't have a lot of cash to throw around. That's what I base my remarks on. What, in the real world, do you base your snide remark on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Happy Guy, I think MMj patients come from all classes. The things that make you eligible for a card happen to everyone.

 

Now I do think that people who don't have a lot, tend to work more with their community, even if that community is us. People reaching out for help and support you would see more in CC's. People who already have a lot don't need the support or are used to not asking for help anyway.

 

So, I believe it is unfair to say that all MMj patients are poor. It isn't true. Most retired NFL players would be eligible for a card, bad knees, broken backs, etc, but some of them have plenty of cash, especially quarterbacks and running backs.

 

Of all of the MMJ patients I know, which isn't a lot I will admit, there is only 1 that is on unemployment/disability. Not that they are rich and have tons of money to throw around as you put it, but they aren't on food stamps either. None of them are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW scooter distributing meds at an important rally in public was a bad move. It put everyone at risk. They could have showed up with drug dogs, just because of scooter. Imagine all the patients who might have had a little marijuana on them - confiscated, tickets, harassment. Bad press.

Thats how one person can screw up the efforts of 400 that showed up.

 

Why? What was the point? Couldn't get into the Loft? You put everyone at risk for your selfish act, it was selfish because really only you and '60 people' benefited at the risk of all of the entire MMMP. Don't say it could not have happened, don't pat yourself on the back that nothing happened, you could have hurt many people. If LEO expects that scooter will be there next year, they will certainly be looking and even decide not to allow us back at the state capitol. Medical Use should be done in private, not in public - and not a public event I am attending.

 

-DN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Happy Guy

Happy Guy, I think MMj patients come from all classes. The things that make you eligible for a card happen to everyone.

 

Now I do think that people who don't have a lot, tend to work more with their community, even if that community is us. People reaching out for help and support you would see more in CC's. People who already have a lot don't need the support or are used to not asking for help anyway.

 

So, I believe it is unfair to say that all MMj patients are poor. It isn't true. Most retired NFL players would be eligible for a card, bad knees, broken backs, etc, but some of them have plenty of cash, especially quarterbacks and running backs.

 

Of all of the MMJ patients I know, which isn't a lot I will admit, there is only 1 that is on unemployment/disability. Not that they are rich and have tons of money to throw around as you put it, but they aren't on food stamps either. None of them are.

That IS what I thought, before I ran the cc. Run a cc for a few months and you get the real demographics. It's an eye opener. Go to a bunch of clinics and you see it across the board, not just at the cc meetings. Most of the patients that had cash flow became caregivers and that left a whole lot of cash strapped patients. I didn't say they ALL were poor, I said MOST of them are poor. That doesn't come from hiding behind my computer and being closed minded. I got out and waded neck deep to get my opinion. Most patients are sick, disabled, or both. That is not a very lucrative position to be in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share



×
×
  • Create New...