Mmj And Probation- Judge Refuses To Recognize Certification

[Dr. Bob]

This out of Midland.

 

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28101571/PEOPLE%20v%20FTNNEY%26VAN%20WERT%20-%20Midland%20Circuit%20Opinion%20re%20Med%20MJ%20on%20probation%2006-08-11.pdf

 

 

Basic summary, court does not accept certification exams as 'bona fide' based on questioning the patient about the exam. There was no review of records, Dr. Buck and Dr. Harwell were not called in to testify. Pretty much just based it on the Redden concurring opinion (remember how all those fans of signature mills here said as a concurring opinion it had no meaning....and I said follow it and do things right?). As a good measure the judge also said the MMMA was in conflict with federal law so it was void anyhow.

 

All in all not a good day in Midland

 

Dr. Bob

[lawyercaregiver]

I know not of these signature mill fans of which you speak. Isn't there general agreement these are pretty bad apples?

 

Couldn't download the link but all the legal types understood that the Redden concurring opinion would be used by the anti-judges until a higher court ruled. It is what we call "persuasive precedent" and it is particularly important coming from a higher court.

[Dr. Bob]

I know not of these signature mill fans of which you speak. Isn't there general agreement these are pretty bad apples?

 

Couldn't download the link but all the legal types understood that the Redden concurring opinion would be used by the anti-judges until a higher court ruled. It is what we call "persuasive precedent" and it is particularly important coming from a higher court.

 

The signature mill fans are the patients that support the mills with their money for their certifications. Stop going to them, and they go away, we proved that in Clare and Traverse City. I am taking legal action against one for sending out postcards and violating the privacy of patients that thought they were seeing me. I'll shut them down and get all the charts in Cadillac tomorrow. But that takes legal action and is not as quick as patients stopping supporting them financially. It is absolutely shocking to me that despite what we know, they are still packing in 40-60 patients a clinic. If you know anyone that is attending these clinics on some excuse of 'don't have records' or 'they are $50 cheaper' remind them that they are putting another nail in the Act. See if they care or have more excuses for why they are doing it and hurting you and every other card holder in this state.

 

Dr. Bob

[bobandtorey]

Well we did not go to a Mill we went to THC-F with records they were the first ones here and we were told by are Doc that he could not sign to go their

[Guest Mr Pepper]

Hi Dr Bob -

 

What are your policies regarding follow up? I was happy with the doctor I certified with, but my one qualm is that there is absolutely no follow up with him. With the doctor patient relationship under such a microscope in court, it is definitely a serious concern of mine. I'm interested to hear how you integrate this into your practice, especially now that you have access to patients via telemedicine.

 

Thanks!

 

The signature mill fans are the patients that support the mills with their money for their certifications. Stop going to them, and they go away, we proved that in Clare and Traverse City. I am taking legal action against one for sending out postcards and violating the privacy of patients that thought they were seeing me. I'll shut them down and get all the charts in Cadillac tomorrow. But that takes legal action and is not as quick as patients stopping supporting them financially. It is absolutely shocking to me that despite what we know, they are still packing in 40-60 patients a clinic. If you know anyone that is attending these clinics on some excuse of 'don't have records' or 'they are $50 cheaper' remind them that they are putting another nail in the Act. See if they care or have more excuses for why they are doing it and hurting you and every other card holder in this state.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Hi Dr Bob -

 

What are your policies regarding follow up? I was happy with the doctor I certified with, but my one qualm is that there is absolutely no follow up with him. With the doctor patient relationship under such a microscope in court, it is definitely a serious concern of mine. I'm interested to hear how you integrate this into your practice, especially now that you have access to patients via telemedicine.

 

Thanks!

 

That is an excellent question. On every patient I've seen since the Redden decision came out, I've given the patient a follow up form to fill out and send in to me when they get their plastic card. This in addition to all my contact information, to include personal cell phone, for any questions and my local facilitators contact information.

 

The form has demographic questions- who are you, diagnosis and qualifying condition questions- what's wrong with you, treatment questions- what are you doing about it, results questions- how's it working, and then if they or their doctors have any specific questions for me. I ask about strains, methods of use, side effects. By completing that survey, which becomes part of their chart, they have formally followed up with me. This is probably more than they get from their regular docs, but as you say it is under a microscope. Of course, this is at NO CHARGE to them to encourage participation. For what they pay for the certification, I feel as though they are entitled to as much of my time as they need to get answers to their questions for the entire year.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Well we did not go to a Mill we went to THC-F with records they were the first ones here and we were told by are Doc that he could not sign to go their

 

Never said they were a mill, seems they did a decent enough job. But they were called on your case, did they change policies to accommodate what the courts wanted them to do, ie follow up? I've never said a cross word about them, other than call them to task when they cancelled clinics at the last second (2 days prior to clinic because they didn't have enough patients). I've had disappointing clinics, but I've never left even one patient in the Western UP hanging by cancelling a clinic at the last second as they did in Escanaba.

 

They are a business, just like I am. A service business. I compete not on price, but on service and like it that way. There are also other clinics that just view patients as a source of income, no record mills, signatures for sale, pre-signed certifications, etc. The only reason they exist is money, and if you stop going to them they will go away. Stop going to them because as long as they are out there, the entire Act is in danger. What I stand for is well known, standards... take it as you wish. I support any other competing clinic that also has standards, including THCF, I am not going to try and justify what I do, it speaks for itself.

 

That said, come to me if you want, go to them or any other legitimate clinic if you want. Just don't go to mills is my point, and don't let your friends go to mills.

 

Dr. Bob

[Willy]

So ok , lets look at the facts here, neither one had a doctors records, or a history of any thing condition, it also says they only got the cards by advice from there lawyers.. , that is kind of important. but i also think the judge is a goof ball, he is reading things into the law i never saw before, and i do read it. I think someone should have told the judge, major surgery is done from a one time visit from a doctor you have never seen. So how bonifide is that.

 

One thing i would like to add, even for that fact of being bonafide or what ever, first, only a few doctors will give the mmj certification and thats why there are mills, second, cost is very important,

When a doctor charges 250.00 for a certification, thats hard to swallow for a person that lives on 700.00 a month. Medicare wont pay for it, that i know of.. so how does a very poor and sick individual get there cert, eat and pay there rent and bills, makes for a very tough month.. oh ya and don't forget the other funds for the state, hmmm half your income ,, great to be alive..

[Dr. Bob]

So ok , lets look at the facts here, neither one had a doctors records, or a history of any thing condition, it also says they only got the cards by advice from there lawyers.. , that is kind of important. but i also think the judge is a goof ball, he is reading things into the law i never saw before, and i do read it. I think someone should have told the judge, major surgery is done from a one time visit from a doctor you have never seen. So how bonifide is that.

 

One thing i would like to add, even for that fact of being bonafide or what ever, first, only a few doctors will give the mmj certification and thats why there are mills, second, cost is very important,

When a doctor charges 250.00 for a certification, thats hard to swallow for a person that lives on 700.00 a month. Medicare wont pay for it, that i know of.. so how does a very poor and sick individual get there cert, eat and pay there rent and bills, makes for a very tough month.. oh ya and don't forget the other funds for the state, hmmm half your income ,, great to be alive..

 

There are 2200 doctors that have written certs, and the good ones are easy to find. Even at 250, which is pretty steep (I charge 150 and it is worth it) it is only a fraction of the cost of medication and other costs associated with MMJ, and only a fraction of the cost of a criminal lawyer. You know how to id a good certification doc? They stand behind their patients, do things right and yes, never let one that needs it (and has the records to show that they do) walk out of the office without one, even if it is for $1 so they can maintain their dignity and say they paid for it. What I do is not for public consumption in cases of poverty, but I bet if you thought about what I said, you would know in your heart what my action would be.

 

Yes, it is great to be alive. It is also great to love what you do, know you do it right, and know you made a difference for the better in someone's life. Plus I get to fly all over this state and meet some really interesting folks/hear some fascinating and feel good about being a doctor.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Try that with a mill. You will see their colors.

[Kalamazoo420]

This out of Midland.

 

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28101571/PEOPLE%20v%20FTNNEY%26VAN%20WERT%20-%20Midland%20Circuit%20Opinion%20re%20Med%20MJ%20on%20probation%2006-08-11.pdf

 

 

Basic summary, court does not accept certification exams as 'bona fide' based on questioning the patient about the exam. There was no review of records, Dr. Buck and Dr. Harwell were not called in to testify. Pretty much just based it on the Redden concurring opinion (remember how all those fans of signature mills here said as a concurring opinion it had no meaning....and I said follow it and do things right?). As a good measure the judge also said the MMMA was in conflict with federal law so it was void anyhow.

 

All in all not a good day in Midland

 

Dr. Bob

 

Not a good day in Midland is an understatement. I hope this federal law conflict business is not getting traction. If these probationers appeal, I suppose the Court of Appeals will take the path of least resistance and void the MMMA entirely. Let's hope these guys can stand prosperity and ride out their probation without MMJ rather than appeal and screw us all over.

[lawyercaregiver]

That is an excellent question. On every patient I've seen since the Redden decision came out, I've given the patient a follow up form to fill out and send in to me when they get their plastic card. This in addition to all my contact information, to include personal cell phone, for any questions and my local facilitators contact information.

 

The form has demographic questions- who are you, diagnosis and qualifying condition questions- what's wrong with you, treatment questions- what are you doing about it, results questions- how's it working, and then if they or their doctors have any specific questions for me. I ask about strains, methods of use, side effects. By completing that survey, which becomes part of their chart, they have formally followed up with me. This is probably more than they get from their regular docs, but as you say it is under a microscope. Of course, this is at NO CHARGE to them to encourage participation. For what they pay for the certification, I feel as though they are entitled to as much of my time as they need to get answers to their questions for the entire year.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Hey doc, I think it would be a great idea to compile all that data and get it out there in the public sphere.

 

Many doctors are not doing what you do to protect their patients.

[2grnthmbs]

The bottom line...

 

Any doctor who requires nothing more than cash to sign a medical marijuana certification will not be able to defend his/her patients against criminal prosecution.

 

Side note...

 

If you choose to use, possess, cultivate and sell marijuana illegally, why bother to register with the MMMP?