The Law Does Not Require A Grow Room To Be Locked.

[Dr. Bob]

I must of missed the ruling on the "Facilty" being roofed. I assume this came from one of the more recent court rulings?

 

But Yes, i do Concur 100% no Logical reason to NOT have it in a Roofed Facility, if their has been a ruling that currently suggests a roofed facility must be utilized, though it is not directly in the Act itself.

 

Ruling was, amongst other things, over a 'dog kennel' used as a grow enclosure. The thing that trouble the court was that it wasn't covered, allowing folks to climb over it into the grow, and that it wasn't staked to the ground, so the corner could simply be lifted. They just didn't feel it was enclosed and secured enough. Looking at it from their point of view, I can see the logic. There are others in here that would just plant in the open with 'do not enter' signs posted around it and call it good. I don't agree. I do agree with learning from the ruling and doing what they want.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

I frequently see comments on this site referencing "the intent of the law" or "the intent of the voters", but what we need to be concerned about is "the intent of the police" and "the intent of the courts".

 

We already presented our arguments to the voters and they agreed with us. Now we must convince the police and judges that it is better for us to be pain free than it is for them to fund their departments by confiscating our money and property.

 

If the voters decided guilt or innocence then we wouldn't be her arguing about it. Sadly, it is the criminal "justice" system who enforces the law. Remember them? They're the ones who think of us as cattle to feed and clothe them.

 

Those of them who aren't completely corrupt (if there are any) are very likely brainwashed into thinking that they are "protecting the children" from the evil drugs. Don't delude yourself into thinking that because you have your card you are safe from prosecution.

 

Right and wrong are moral concepts and have nothing whatsoever to do with he law.

 

You hit the nail on the head. Address the intent that counts.

 

Dr. Bob

[Guest Happy Guy]

you do not need records their any more but when we went you had to have them

This is utter BS. THCF still requires a LOT of records. Get your facts straight Bob. You hurt the movement when you sputter BS. THCF is one of the most careful because they have been in it the longest and are nation wide. My info is fresh, I just took a patient to them. You still need three previous doctors notes to even get in the door. They are very careful to make sure everything is legal and the patient is safely helped.

[The Digital Nomad]

I must of missed the ruling on the "Facilty" being roofed. I assume this came from one of the more recent court rulings?

 

But Yes, i do Concur 100% no Logical reason to NOT have it in a Roofed Facility, if their has been a ruling that currently suggests a roofed facility must be utilized, though it is not directly in the Act itself.

 

if something is enclosed, it is all sides, top and bottom.

 

"Enclosed, locked facility"

 

"enclosed

1. Surround or close off on all sides."

 

We could nitpick words all day, but if we step back and honesty view what we are saying through the eyes of not just law enforcement but regular people. Many reasonable people would likely agree that growing marijuana outside, especially in a residential area, the plant should be secured, it should be enclosed on all sides to keep unauthorized people from taking it. If you left your pills laying around and a child ate it and died, you could be charged with neglect because you didn't secure your meds (and supervise a child). They are trying to implement new laws for potent medicine that is a bit harder to secure from children. Why not work with the idea, than against it?

 

I found that outdoor grown marijuana likes being under cover of opaque plastic - so I can't see any reason why one would want to leave the top of their outdoor grow open and exposed.

 

A greenhouse is still a perfect place for growing marijuana outside - it is recognized as a building or structure, it is enclosed and can be secured unlike a fence. Trying to do this on the cheap outside is where people get in trouble.

 

-DN

[Guest Happy Guy]

if something is enclosed, it is all sides, top and bottom.

 

"Enclosed, locked facility"

 

-DN

Not really when you look in every dictionary out there. Enclosed can be just fenced in. There are fenced in enclosures without a top. Whether that applies here is the question. The dictionary doesn't think so. Common sense might prevail and you would have to do better than just a fence.

[Guest Happy Guy]

if something is enclosed, it is all sides, top and bottom.

 

"Enclosed, locked facility"

 

"enclosed

1. Surround or close off on all sides."

 

We could nitpick words all day, but if we step back and honesty view what we are saying through the eyes of not just law enforcement but regular people. Many reasonable people would likely agree that growing marijuana outside, especially in a residential area, the plant should be secured, it should be enclosed on all sides to keep unauthorized people from taking it. If you left your pills laying around and a child ate it and died, you could be charged with neglect because you didn't secure your meds (and supervise a child). They are trying to implement new laws for potent medicine that is a bit harder to secure from children. Why not work with the idea, than against it?

 

I found that outdoor grown marijuana likes being under cover of opaque plastic - so I can't see any reason why one would want to leave the top of their outdoor grow open and exposed.

 

A greenhouse is still a perfect place for growing marijuana outside - it is recognized as a building or structure, it is enclosed and can be secured unlike a fence. Trying to do this on the cheap outside is where people get in trouble.

 

-DN

You edited and then contradicted yourself. First you said all sides plus top and bottom, then you provide a reference that just says 'all sides'. Like I said, the dictionary doesn't agree that you need a top and bottom.

[Dr. Bob]

This is utter BS. THCF still requires a LOT of records. Get your facts straight Bob. You hurt the movement when you sputter BS. THCF is one of the most careful because they have been in it the longest and are nation wide. My info is fresh, I just took a patient to them. You still need three previous doctors notes to even get in the door. They are very careful to make sure everything is legal and the patient is safely helped.

 

That is good to hear, I've always respected THCF as far as their protocols for certification go. I don't think you are directing that comment at me.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

You edited and then contradicted yourself. First you said all sides plus top and bottom, then you provide a reference that just says 'all sides'. Like I said, the dictionary doesn't agree that you need a top and bottom.

 

A cube is an enclosed space. We live in a 3d world. How many sides does a cube have? How many sided need to be fenced if you are fencing all sides of a cube? The answer is, 'who cares' because the courts want top and bottom, any other argument, definition or justification is moot.

 

Dr. Bob

[The Digital Nomad]

You edited and then contradicted yourself. First you said all sides plus top and bottom, then you provide a reference that just says 'all sides'. Like I said, the dictionary doesn't agree that you need a top and bottom.

? all sides - is top and bottom.

 

How many sides to a square cube?*

 

*the answer is NOT four, as you imply with just a fenced outdoor grow. The correct answer is 6. four sides, plus the top and bottom of the cube. Thats enclosed on all sides.

 

-DN

[Guest Happy Guy]

If the courts want a top and a bottom then that is what it is. But if you read and do research using dictionaries as a source, you find that there are fenced in enclosures WITHOUT A TOP. You see it in many sources so I don't feel the need to supply them. Just look up fenced in enclosure. Almost every dictionary gives ONE example of an enclosure as an area fenced on 4 sides. But Like Dr. Bob said, so what, the courts don't need to read the dictionary either. LOL

[Hempcheff]

Chew on this for a minute, were about to see some bees find a home.

 

What i have come to understand in regards to the "enclosed locked facility" is that only a patient or a caregiver is allowed "access" meaning they are the only people authorized to release the security devices in place that permit access. The law cleary provides protection for ANY PERSON that enters the enclosed locked facility. Lets call the enclosed locked facility, for the sake of argument, oh i dont know, a grow room.

 

A grow room in compliance with the MMMA 2008 is considered medical use. With or without a physical locking mechanism in place, (to satisfy PB), as other security devices can be used. THe law provides:

 

(i) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for being in the presence or vicinity of the medical use (GROW ROOM) of marihuana in accordance with this act, or for assisting a registered qualifying patient with using or administering marihuana.

 

 

Im thinking that this was included so my wife for example cant be charged, or my kids, or even the neighbor that comes by to help me carry dirt into my grow room, for example.

 

no, not a lawyer, i just read the law and it made sense to me.

 

id like to hear an attorneys thoughts on it though.

[Hempcheff]

And, since i seem to be on a roll here:

"Enclosed, locked facility" means a closet, room, or other enclosed area equipped with locks or other security devices that permit access only by (not "to") a registered primary caregiver or registered qualifying patient.

 

 

Actually, there are no provisions in the law that make it illegal for non patients/Caregivers to be in a grow room. Interestingly enough, there are protections for them.

 

Chew on this for a minute, were about to see some bees find a home.

 

What i have come to understand in regards to the "enclosed locked facility" is that only a patient or a caregiver is allowed "access" meaning they are the only people authorized to release the security devices in place that permit access. The law cleary provides protection for ANY PERSON that enters the enclosed locked facility. Lets call the enclosed locked facility, for the sake of argument, oh i dont know, a grow room.

 

A grow room in compliance with the MMMA 2008 is considered medical use. With or without a physical locking mechanism in place, (to satisfy PB), as other security devices can be used. THe law provides:

 

(i) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for being in the presence or vicinity of the medical use (GROW ROOM) of marihuana in accordance with this act, or for assisting a registered qualifying patient with using or administering marihuana.

 

 

Im thinking that this was included so my wife for example cant be charged, or my kids, or even the neighbor that comes by to help me carry dirt into my grow room, for example.

 

no, not a lawyer, i just read the law and it made sense to me.

 

id like to hear an attorneys thoughts on it though.

[Guest Happy Guy]

That is good to hear, I've always respected THCF as far as their protocols for certification go. I don't think you are directing that comment at me.

 

Dr. Bob

I direct that at BobanTorey Bob, the one I quoted. He was erroneous from what I encountered just a week ago. The only way you get a rec. from THCF is WITH paperwork. If you were a couple years ahead on paperwork, and you need a renewal, they will give you a pass until your three years worth expires. But you still need three years documentation and they keep it on file.

[Guest Happy Guy]

? all sides - is top and bottom.

 

How many sides to a square cube?*

 

*the answer is NOT four, as you imply with just a fenced outdoor grow. The correct answer is 6. four sides, plus the top and bottom of the cube. Thats enclosed on all sides.

 

-DN

Razor wire on the top should be enough. Secure and enclosed. Did you find the dictionary talking about no top yet? LOL You don't have to look far.

Need pics? http://www.servicemagic.com/resources.dg.project.Various-Fence-Enclosure-Styles.16.17.93533.html

 

It doesn't really even need all four sides!

[Dr. Bob]

Fencing it in on 4 sides makes perfect sense to us, so do any means that restrict access. Again, 'who cares'? Do what the courts want. The ultimate test- without breaking anything, can I get in? If I can simply open a door, climb over, under or squeeze through an unlocked window or vent, it is not secured. Or if my kids can. I can easily get into a dog kennel, hop a 4 foot (or 8 foot) fence, or walk past a sign. Do we go for the minimum when, with little effort, we can make the security real? We don't need Ft. Knox, we need something I'd require tools like bolt cutters or a chain saw to defeat.

 

Why are we even wasting time discussing this?

 

Dr. Bob

[Guest Happy Guy]

Fencing it in on 4 sides makes perfect sense to us, so do any means that restrict access. Again, 'who cares'? Do what the courts want. The ultimate test- without breaking anything, can I get in? If I can simply open a door, climb over, under or squeeze through an unlocked window or vent, it is not secured. Or if my kids can. I can easily get into a dog kennel, hop a 4 foot (or 8 foot) fence, or walk past a sign. Do we go for the minimum when, with little effort, we can make the security real? We don't need Ft. Knox, we need something I'd require tools like bolt cutters or a chain saw to defeat.

 

Why are we even wasting time discussing this?

 

Dr. Bob

Right. We just prove, again, that the dictionary is useless in court. LOL

[Dr. Bob]

Razor wire on the top should be enough. Secure and enclosed. Did you find the dictionary talking about no top yet? LOL You don't have to look far.

Need pics? http://www.servicemagic.com/resources.dg.project.Various-Fence-Enclosure-Styles.16.17.93533.html

 

It doesn't really even need all four sides!

 

Is a cube fenced on 6 sides enclosed, of course it is. The courts are looking at a 3d space, enclosing it on all 6 sides meets their definition, so that is what we do. People that try and find things in the dictionary to justify their position are grasping at straws, view things in context of what the folks that put you in jail want, not what you want. You want to quote definitions, quote the ruling and show how your point of view fits it.

 

Language conveys ideas and meanings. We look at the word 'red' and see a color in our minds. The idea the courts are conveying is they want all sides enclosed so no one can get in without some kind of assistance (they need to defeat a barrier of some kind in every approach). If you think you have an 'enclosure' look at it and see if there is any way you can get in without help. If you can see a way to do it, then it isn't enclosed.

 

This entire line of discussion is a waste of time. Let's look at how we can actually accomplish something to meet what they want rather than argue why they are wrong. Ok, they are completely wrong and off base and only we know the true path of truth. Now, do we feel better? Have we changed anything? Does LEO or the general public care? Will we still be arrested? WHO CARES, we need to adjust to their point of view on this, just as they need to do some adjusting of their own. We don't control them, we only control ourselves.

 

Dr. Bob

[bobandtorey]

This is utter BS. THCF still requires a LOT of records. Get your facts straight Bob. You hurt the movement when you sputter BS. THCF is one of the most careful because they have been in it the longest and are nation wide. My info is fresh, I just took a patient to them. You still need three previous doctors notes to even get in the door. They are very careful to make sure everything is legal and the patient is safely helped.

 

i like the THC-F they are my friends am just saying what they told me and all of us when i was at a C.C meeting they were their and told us all how they are doing it you have to sign a paper that says you will bring them to them inn a year

[The Digital Nomad]

how about this - I visited outdoor grows - that got inspected by LEO. I also read and met people that got busted for growing outside.

 

Guess which outside grow passed LEO inspection? Read the court documents to read about the grows that did not pass inspection.

 

The grow that occured near port huron was in a residental area. It has the wooden privacy fence, and then insde the chainlink cage (top, sides, and secured to ground). When the 24 plants grew about 16 feet tall, someone called the police. They checked cards, and they called the PA. They agreed, since it was enclosed on the top, they were very happy - their words.

 

The last I heard about an arrest for an outdoor grow, the arresting officer, quote, said "We stood on your neighbor's back deck, and we saw that you did not have a top on it - so we are raiding you."

 

New patients and growers, becareful - take every precaution, don't think you have protection behind a dictionary.

 

-DN

[Guest Happy Guy]

i like the THC-F they are my friends am just saying what they told me and all of us when i was at a C.C meeting they were their and told us all how they are doing it you have to sign a paper that says you will bring them to them inn a year

Hearsay. Call them up and they will tell you the real deal. You just got bad info at a cc meeting. Happens all the time. Be careful passing on the BS. I talked with the boss last week. The rules are the same. They know the law backwards and forwards, they are not changing a thing. They were the first in Michigan and they are the best because of their nation wide exposure and ability to defend each of us from a position of strength and power.

[Guest Happy Guy]

how about this - I visited outdoor grows - that got inspected by LEO. I also read and met people that got busted for growing outside.

 

Guess which outside grow passed LEO inspection? Read the court documents to read about the grows that did not pass inspection.

 

The grow that occured near port huron was in a residental area. It has the wooden privacy fence, and then insde the chainlink cage (top, sides, and secured to ground). When the 24 plants grew about 16 feet tall, someone called the police. They checked cards, and they called the PA. They agreed, since it was enclosed on the top, they were very happy - their words.

 

The last I heard about an arrest for an outdoor grow, the arresting officer, quote, said "We stood on your neighbor's back deck, and we saw that you did not have a top on it - so we are raiding you."

 

New patients and growers, becareful - take every precaution, don't think you have protection behind a dictionary.

 

-DN

Dictionaries have no value in court.. and neither do our opinions. Like I have the opinion that no outdoor grow is secure. But it throws no weight other than with my own decision making.

[The Digital Nomad]

Dictionaries have no value in court.. and neither do our opinions. Like I have the opinion that no outdoor grow is secure. But it throws no weight other than with my own decision making.

 

Maybe its not your decision I am worried about, as an advocate for MM - I wish to educate the public, new people - about what they should do to be safe - based on my experience as a leader for a club. When people ask for me to come over to their houses to advise on their grows - I pass the good information on to this public forum - apparently some opinions do matter.

 

We will win this argument based on court cases and dismissals - compare designs that LEO raided, and those LEO passed over.

Dog kennel - enclosed, but not secured to ground. Auburn Hills - four foot fence, was not deemed enclosed. Warren - not enclosed on top. Cage on back deck - not secured to deck.

The ones that made LEO inspection - well thats harder as no one reports those much. I took photos of one such place. But the key factor was the owner following the law to its full potential.

 

The harm we could do to a person by ill advising them "hey you don't need a top for your outdoor grow" is something I could not live with.

 

Again, not trying to change your opinion, but trying to build a stronger foundation for newbies.

 

Well - off for Father's day!

 

-DN

[peanutbutter]

Right. We just prove, again, that the dictionary is useless in court. LOL

 

The dictionary doesn't apply here.

 

Very few seem to get that.

[peanutbutter]

The dictionary doesn't apply here.

 

Very few seem to get that.

 

The court itself isn't supposed to use a dictionary to understand what an enclosed, locked facility is.

[Timmahh]

Ruling was, amongst other things, over a 'dog kennel' used as a grow enclosure. The thing that trouble the court was that it wasn't covered, allowing folks to climb over it into the grow, and that it wasn't staked to the ground, so the corner could simply be lifted. They just didn't feel it was enclosed and secured enough. Looking at it from their point of view, I can see the logic. There are others in here that would just plant in the open with 'do not enter' signs posted around it and call it good. I don't agree. I do agree with learning from the ruling and doing what they want.

 

Dr. Bob

 

ok, i did see that. so as i understand it, if the fencing is secured to the ground, say burried and staked, or the bottom is secured in a cement footing that can not be lifted and dug thru, and say the top of the fence is 8ft tall (no one can phyiscialy reach without climbing the fence or jumping up to the top) and has looped barbed wire across the top all the way around, (again thinking prison style security, if it keeps prisoners it, then it should be endorsed and suitable to keep people out if common sence has any reverence left to it), so the only way to get inside would be to parachute in, or illegally gain enterance (cutting fence, locks ect...) with out using the locked gate at the entrance point, then this should suffice (with all due respect ofcourse) the courts Concerns with the Kennel type "Facility".

 

as you say, dont do what they say isnt doable, or think you are ok, but use their exact wording.

 

secure fencing to the ground.

ensure it can not be lifted or dug under without major work = concrete footings 12 inches deep

ensure the top is high enough that it can not be easily gotten over. 7ft minimum but 8 would be better. add looped barbed wire to the top, to make Climbing the fence to get over the top futile and nearly impossible (razor wire would be better, as it can not be covered with a thick rug to climb over).

 

locked gate, where only the caretaker of the internal contents has access.

 

 

in theory this SHOULD offer the courts a very reasonable list of what is done to comply with their current concerns.

 

so if this could be presented as a FIX to their concerns, then maybe some forward movement could be had, atleast until it goes to the State Supreme court.

 

while i agree dont do it if it isnt 100% safe and legal to do, but with that said, to make headway, proposals to fixes must be put forward and introduced for consideration.