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No More Ccw/cpl For Mmm Card Holders!?!

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I took my CPL (permit to carry a concealed pistol)class yesterday, 6-26-11, and the instructor, Mark Cortis- (248) 506-3472, said he went to a seminar in May and that's the new rule. The seminar was given by: James Tieman- Firearms Training Consultant- Michigan State Police, (734) 395-0199, NICSMI@aol.com. A member from another forum site spoke with Mr. Tieman this morning and He stated that you CAN NOT have a CPL and a MMMP card. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his (Mr. Tieman) words, and they will revoke your CPL. I intend to contact Mr. Tieman myself to confirm this, but wanted to get others opinions/thoughts/knowledge first.

 

Has anyone else heard that if you have your MMM patient card that you can no longer get a CPL / CCW licence as of April 2011? If so, does that include caregivers? What's ur thoughts on being a patient and now being removed from eligibility to conceal carry a pistol in Michigan? Also, if this is true, how can we fight this? Another member suggested HIPAA, but HIPAA is also a federal program and I would think it would also have to follow federal law?

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A member from another forum site spoke with Mr. Tieman this morning and He stated that you CAN NOT have a CPL and a MMMP card. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his (Mr. Tieman) words,

Precisely... Once the board finds out. And how are they going to do that? It isn't like they send the database over to the ATF for comparison.

 

The question comes into play when on the form it asks if you are an illicit drug user (paraphrased)... State law says no you are not, Federal Law says you are. Which one do you answer under? Then it gets constitutional when you consider does the Federal Government really have the right to regulate MMJ? If they don't, then their law is invalid and you can answer no.

 

Cedar

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This is silly. I hate when people say, "If you have your MJ card you can't _____________"

 

Having a MMJ card is legal under state law and federal law. There is no federal law that forbids a person to register as a marijuana user.

 

The very important distinction here is that many people like to equate the ability to use or possess marijuana with actually possessing or using.

 

Saying "You can't grow marijuana and have a CPL" is a very different statement than "You can't have an MMJ card and have a CPL."

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I'm patient I have a CPL and I open carry also. I also know several caregivers (5) who have a CPL two before they got their card and three after.

 

I will not give up anymore of my rights...

 

Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.

- Thomas Jefferson

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http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2011/06/lawyers_guns_and_money_a_day_i.html

 

 

 

GENESEE COUNTY, Michigan — For Kurt Weiss, it all came down to one vote.

If Genesee County Assistant Prosecutor Tim Cassady voted yes, Weiss got to keep his concealed pistol license. If it was a no, then the Flint man had a tough choice to make:

Give up his license to carry a concealed weapon or forfeit his medical marijuana card.

 

Weiss, 36, was ticketed in September for failing to tell a police officer he had his gun on him. To have his license reinstated after a six-month suspension, he was called into a recent meeting of the county’s concealed weapon licensing board.

His is just one of 200 licenses that members of the Genesee County gun board had before them to review at a recent meeting.

 

The board is one of the busiest in the state, meeting twice per month in a clerk’s office conference room — but rarely does anyone from the public take notice.

In counties across the state, gun boards are tasked with carrying out the state law. They depend on a process of record keeping that is filled with spotty reporting and lax oversight, a Booth Michigan investigation found.

For example, boards across the state regularly neglect to file required year-end reports to the state — including Genesee County last year.

 

Their job is not easy.

 

The law thrusts a hefty workload on local boards with limited resources. Counties collect $41 of the $105 application fee.

“My personal opinion is that the county doesn’t get a fair share of that fee considering that all the record keeping is done here,” said Doreen Fulcher, elections supervisor at the clerk’s office. “In the month of March 2011, we processed almost 600 applications. And we have a staff of four.”

 

The county has nearly 14,000 people approved to carry concealed weapons — trailing only Macomb, Oakland and Wayne counties, the Booth investigation found.

The gun board includes a group of officials representing the sheriff, prosecutor, county clerk and state police. It meets twice a month to approve, deny, revoke or suspend licenses to carry a concealed weapon, called CCWs for short.

When board members aren’t meeting with license holders or applicants, they go through applications and renewals — pre-reviewed by the clerk’s representative — with an assembly line precision.

Unlike some counties, Genesee’s clerk, prosecutor and sheriff send representatives to the meeting rather than appearing themselves.

Genesee County Sheriff’s Capt. Chris Swanson and Michigan State Police Sgt. Jeff Bauermeister regularly look to Cassady for questions about laws and violations.

The pounding of rubber stamps on paper sets the tempo in the room like a metronome.

 

“I need to get new ink,” Swanson says at one point.

Deputy Clerk Cathy Cole represents the clerk’s office, which doesn’t vote but handles the bulk of paperwork and clerical duties.

Gun boards across the state tend to have their own style. For example, some make all applicants show up in person. In Genesee County, the board calls applicants in for unusual or contentious cases — like Weiss’s.

 

If the Genesee County board was ever a stiff, formal affair, those conventions were abandoned long ago.

“Why would a guy born in 1922 want a CCW?” Bauermeister says of one application. “Where’s he gonna go?”

Typically only a handful of current or aspiring CCW holders appear in person each month. Weiss was one of four at the April meeting.

The board denied the woman and man with convictions, but approved the man whose brother raised concerns.

“I don’t find anything (that merits a revocation),” Swanson said, before turning to question the applicant.

“Why do you want a CCW, sir?” Swanson asked.

“Self protection,” he responded.

“Can’t disagree with that,” Swanson said.

 

Weiss’s case would normally be a run-of-the-mill suspension for the board. Then the medical marijuana issue came to light and behooved the board to take a stand.

 

Genesee County Sheriff’s Capt. Chris Swanson voted yes. Michigan State Police Sgt. Jeff Bauermeister voted no, based on advice from MSP’s legal council.

 

With their split vote, the decision on whether Weiss’s license should be reinstated was left up to Cassady.

Cassady told Weiss he’s checked with the U.S. Attorney’s office, which assures him they have no intention of prosecuting against CCW holders violating federal law by following the medical marijuana law Michigan voters passed in 2008.

“So based upon that, since you’re in compliance with state law ... it’s the position of the prosecutor to vote yes,” Cassady said.

Weiss breathed a sigh of relief. He didn’t expect things to work out in his favor.

“I was a little caught off-guard by your decision,” he said. “So thank you.”

It was all in a day’s work for the county’s gun board.

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Weiss, 36, was ticketed in September for failing to tell a police officer he had his gun on him.

 

2 comments:

 

1.) Don't get over-medicated to the point you forget the #1 rule repeated throughout every CPL class. I inform officers of my pocket knife ASAP. Don't want to give them any reason to shoot me in the back like they did to Oscar Grant.

 

2.) This is a reinstatment hearing, MMJ should never have been brought up as a person's medical care is private. MMJ does not prevent you from obtaining the license. On the purchase form for a firearm it asks is you are a user of ilegal drugs. The answer should be plain.

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If anyone gets denied a CPL because of the MMMAct, please contact myself either by private message here or at malamutex@hotmail.com

 

Cannabis Patients United is pursuing this issue and we are willing to do so for you.

 

Thank you.

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Has anyone else heard that if you have your MMM patient card that you can no longer get a CPL / CCW licence as of April 2011? If so, does that include caregivers? What's ur thoughts on being a patient and now being removed from eligibility to conceal carry a pistol in Michigan? Also, if this is true, how can we fight this? Another member suggested HIPAA, but HIPAA is also a federal program and I would think it would also have to follow federal law?

 

He is full of BS. As of this date there is no access to the MMM database by LEO or the CPL licensing board. The CPL is NOT a federal law it is state by state. The licensing boards are county by county and usually are a local PA and State Police representative.

 

Now this may change if the bill gets passed that allows LEO access to the database. I can see a Jones being willing to give up our rights for us.

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LEO has access to the database via the LEIN system.

 

 

 

http://cannabispatientsunited.org/documents/lein

This is true but unless they have your registration number they cannot find you or your grow this is for in case a raid is underway and the suspects provide officers with their patient/caregivers cards they then run your id # through the lien system.

 

As far as randomly punching in numbers to get someones id # would come out in a court case any good lawyer would request the lein info searches for that department through foia and they would be in violation of federal law they know that as well as the attorneys.

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333.26424(a) states

 

A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be

subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not

limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or

bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act...

 

A co-worker who's CPL has been suspended by such a Board until the conclusion of a DUI proceeding (has not been found guilty of any crime, just accused) just got car-jacked last night. Gun was at home, in accordance with the law. Man could have gotten killed.

 

OBEY

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This is true but unless they have your registration number they cannot find you or your grow this is for in case a raid is underway and the suspects provide officers with their patient/caregivers cards they then run your id # through the lien system.

 

As far as randomly punching in numbers to get someones id # would come out in a court case any good lawyer would request the lein info searches for that department through foia and they would be in violation of federal law they know that as well as the attorneys.

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They wouldn't need to do it randomly. When you sign the CPL application there is section for "agreement and certification". In this section, by signing the application, you "give authority to the concealed weapon licensing board to access any record, including medical and mental health records, pertaining to my qualifications to receive a concealed pistol license.". Section "B" of the listed qualifications is the "Federal Requirements". Line 3 in this section says, "not to be an unlawful user of, or addicted to, any controlled substance". Like it or not, on the federal level patients are "unlawful users".

 

And yes iv read "A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be

subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not

limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or

bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act..."

 

This leaves more questions than answers. On a state level yes this would clear all card holders, however, federal law always trumps state law. As the section on the CPL form is listed as a federal section, can this protect us??

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Just my 2 cents worth , probably the County you live in has a bit to do with it. In Oakland County your a criminal no mater what but north of the big Mac bridge guns are just part of daily life. Personally I think we should be able to have both, MMJ card and CPL license. PP

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Just my 2 cents worth , probably the County you live in has a bit to do with it. In Oakland County your a criminal no mater what but north of the big Mac bridge guns are just part of daily life. Personally I think we should be able to have both, MMJ card and CPL license. PP

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Cassady told Weiss he’s checked with the U.S. Attorney’s office, which assures him they have no intention of prosecuting against CCW holders violating federal law by following the medical marijuana law Michigan voters passed in 2008.

 

“So based upon that, since you’re in compliance with state law ... it’s the position of the prosecutor to vote yes,” Cassady said.

 

 

 

 

in reference to a cpl...

 

 

 

 

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2011/06/lawyers_guns_and_money_a_day_i.html

 

 

 

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Cynthia Willis shows off her Walther P-22 pistol March 25, 2011 at a firing range in White City, Ore. Willis is suing the Jackson County sheriff to get her concealed handgun permit back after being denied for having a medical marijuana card. / AP photo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHITE CITY, Ore. (AP) — Cynthia Willis calls up and down the firing range to be sure everyone knows she is shooting, squares up in a two-handed stance with her Walther P-22 automatic pistol and fires off a clip in rapid succession.

 

Willis is not only packing a concealed handgun permit in her wallet, she also has a medical marijuana card. That combination has led the local sheriff to try to take her gun permit away.

 

She is part of what is considered the first major court case in the country to consider whether guns and marijuana can legally mix. The sheriffs of Washington and Jackson counties say no. But Willis and three co-plaintiffs have won in state court twice, with the state's rights to regulate concealed weapons trumping federal gun control law in each decision.

 

With briefs filed and arguments made, they are now waiting for the Oregon Supreme Court to rule.

 

When it's over, the diminutive 54-year-old plans to still be eating marijuana cookies to deal with her arthritis pain and muscle spasms, and carrying her pistol.

 

"Under the medical marijuana law, I am supposed to be treated as any other citizen in this state," she said. "If people don't stand up for their little rights, all their big rights will be gone."

 

A retired school bus driver, Willis volunteers at a Medford smoke shop that helps medical marijuana patients find growers, and teaches how to get the most medical benefit out of the pound-and-a-half of pot that card carriers are allowed to possess. She believes that her marijuana oils, cookies and joints should be treated no differently than any other prescribed medicines. She said she doesn't use them when she plans to drive, or carry her gun.

 

"That's as stupid as mixing alcohol and weapons,"' she said.

 

Oregon sheriffs are not happy about the state's medical marijuana law.

 

"The whole medical marijuana issue is a concern to sheriffs across the country who are involved in it mainly because there is so much potential for abuse or for misuse and as a cover for organized criminal activity," said Washington County Sheriff Rob Gordon, who became part of the Willis case because his office turned down three medical marijuana patients in the Portland suburbs for concealed handgun permits. "You can't argue that people aren't misusing that statute in Oregon.

 

"Not everybody, of course. Some have real medical reasons. But ...the larger group happens be people who are very clearly abusing it."

 

The sheriffs argue that the 1968 U.S. Gun Control Act prohibits selling firearms to drug addicts, and they say that includes medical marijuana card holders. Their briefs state that they cannot give a permit to carry a gun to someone prohibited from buying or owning a gun.

 

But the cardholders have won so far arguing this is one situation where federal law does not trump state law, because the concealed handgun license just gives a person a legal defense if they are arrested, not a right.

 

Oregon's attorney general has sided with the marijuana cardholders, arguing that the concealed handgun license cannot be used to buy a gun, so sheriffs who issue one to a marijuana card holder are not in violation of the federal law.

 

Willis' lawyer, Leland Berger, says it is much simpler.

 

The sheriffs "are opposed to the medical marijuana act," Berger said from Portland. "It's not based on reason. That's how they are."

 

Rural southern Oregon is awash with marijuana — legal and illegal. Arrests for illegal plantations are commonplace. The region's six counties also have the highest rate of medical marijuana use in the state. There are also a lot of guns in the Rogue Valley, where Willis lives.

 

Sixteen states now have medical marijuana laws, according to NORML, an advocacy group. There is no way to determine how many medical marijuana cardholders also have gun permits. Patient lists are confidential, and an Oregon court ruled the sheriffs can't look at them.

 

NORML executive director Allen St. Pierre said Oregon courts have not been entirely medical marijuana friendly. While they have upheld the right to pack a pistol, they have also ruled that employers can fire people who use medical marijuana.

 

"A person who uses medical cannabis should not have to give up their fundamental rights as enumerated by the Constitution,"' St. Pierre said.

 

Gordon said he expects the gun issue to come up in other states with medical marijuana laws.

 

Oregon was the first state in the country to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana, with legislation enacted in 1973. And it was right behind California in making medical marijuana legal when voters approved a ballot measure in 1998. But voters here stopped short of following California all the way to selling medical marijuana to cardholders at dispensaries. A ballot measure failed last year, so patients still have to grow their own or get someone else to grow it for them at cost, with no profit margin.

 

Oregon is one of 37 states where the sheriff has to give a concealed handgun permit to anyone meeting the list of criteria, though they have some discretion to say what those criteria are. They generally require people to be 21, a U.S. citizen, pass a gun safety course, and have no criminal record or history of mental illness, drug or alcohol abuse, or domestic violence.

 

The issue doesn't really come up in California, where concealed handgun licenses are much harder to get.

 

If Willis loses, she plans to carry her pistol out in the open, in a holster on her hip, which is, under Oregon law, perfectly legal.

 

"I've been done harm in my life and it won't ever happen again,"' she said about her reasons for wanting the gun. "I've never had to draw it"

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I'm starting to get so sick of this so called Medical Marijuana law its a big donkey joke in my eyes, I quit smoking cause of all the stress and BS I keep having to go through, look at how many people including myself that are getting harassed about there CCW/CPL, here is just a cpl people posting to me on FB and emails "where did you get your CCW I was told NO"

 

ROB: If you got your med card you can't get ccwJune 28 at 4:27pm ·

 

 

Hunter: Hey John :o) Do you have a CCW ? just wondering cause my Brother is taking the CCW class but he is a caregiver and a patient and someone told him he cant have a CCW ?

29 minutes ago ·

 

Hunter: Lol thats exactly what he said. The news was saying last night that even though its legal in the state that its still a federal crime and the feds are going to start bustin people and thats moo poo !

 

There are more but you see my point it's a joke. MI is a open carry state I will carry mine w/ or w/o a permit and the can TRY and take mine away again...

 

Trix :bong2:

 

EDIT: Removed links

Edited by trix

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Listen to last night's Planet Green Trees for more information on this. The statewide policy from the Michigan State Police on this is to flag patients in the federal NICS database if they have a police interaction with possession of marijuana, and of a firearm, regardless of compliance. This flag as an unlawful substance abuser will prevent future privileges from being granted. This, and other parallel patient databases that are being built, may also be how the police are getting registry information on traffic stops in some situations.

Oh great. Is it the Republicans who are giving a wink and a nod to this illegal invasion of medical privacy? If so then they are serious hypocrites.

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Listen to last night's Planet Green Trees for more information on this. The statewide policy from the Michigan State Police on this is to flag patients in the federal NICS database if they have a police interaction with possession of marijuana, and of a firearm, regardless of compliance. This flag as an unlawful substance abuser will prevent future privileges from being granted. This, and other parallel patient databases that are being built, may also be how the police are getting registry information on traffic stops in some situations.

 

 

some more (old) info from mlive. http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2012/06/some_michigan_medical_marijuan.html

 

have there been any court movements on -reporting mmmp to the feds or actual ccw/mmmp participation ?

 

Buying a gun or dealing with police? Local chief says some Michigan medical marijuana patients could be reported to federal gov

 
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GENESEE COUNTY, MI -- Trying to buy a gun, or even dealing with police in any way in some communities, could land medical marijuana patients in reports to federal authorities.

11114894-large.jpgFile PhotoMedical marijuana users are being identified under a police procedure adopted by a local police agency.

Flushing Police Chief Mark Hoornstra said his department adopted the procedure about six months ago following a training seminar organized by the FBI, which was attended by about a dozen other Michigan law enforcement agencies.

Under the procedure, Hoornstra said his officers report any interactions with individuals identified as medical marijuana patients to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, even if they are not committing a crime or violating the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act.

So far, about 10 medical marijuana users have been reported to the federal government by Flushing Police, Hoornstra said.

The NICS program allows clerks at firearm retailers to quickly identify if a potential buyer has a criminal record or any other red flag, such as drug abuse, that would ban them from purchasing a firearm.

Federal law prohibits the “shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession” of a firearm by anyone that uses or is addicted to a controlled substance, according to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives form 4473, which firearms buyers are required to complete prior to the purchase a gun.

On the 4473 form, potential buyers are asked if they are an “unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance.”

Medicinal marijuana is legal in Michigan, but it is still illegal under federal law. This was highlighted in a September 2011 letter sent out by the ATF to all federal firearm dealers.

The letter spells out that gun dealers cannot sell firearms to people that are identified as medical marijuana users.

“The regulations, under which NICS operates, permits the NICS examiners to make an inference of use when the subject is found in possession of a controlled substance,” the FBI’s Stephen Fischer Jr. wrote in an email to The Flint Journal. “If a known user attempts to buy a firearm from a (Federal Firearm Licensee), then NICS can and will deny the transaction.”

Answering “yes” to the drug question on the 4473 disqualifies the potential buyer from purchasing the firearm. However, with the FBI-backed procedure, the NICS program could already know the answer to that question before the buyer ever even fills out the form.

The FBI confirmed that it does receive information from Michigan law enforcement agencies.

“State and local law enforcement do not have to report persons to any of the NICS databases – i.e., they are not mandated by the federal government to do so,” Fischer wrote. “They do so voluntarily for law enforcement purposes.”

However, Fischer said the FBI does not maintain a database specifically to identify medical marijuana patients.

“The NICS does not keep track of medical marijuana users,” Fischer wrote. “It does keep records of denied transactions by persons who have recorded use of controlled substances (e.g., arrests and convictions) within certain time spans and who have been discovered in possession of a firearm.”

Matthew Abel, an attorney with the Detroit-based Cannabis Counsel, a law firm that specializes in marijuana issues, says he believes the procedure of reporting medical marijuana patients to the federal government is in violation of state law.

“The Medical Marihuana Act has provisions that anyone that discloses information is guilty of a misdemeanor,” Abel said.

According to the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act, “applications and supporting information submitted by qualifying patients, including information regarding their primary caregivers and physicians, are confidential.”

The law goes on to say that the information can be used to verify to law enforcement if a medical marijuana patient’s identification card is valid, but “a person, including an employee or official of the department or another state agency or local unit of government, who discloses confidential information in violation of this act is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 6 months, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00, or both.”

Hoornstra defended his department’s procedure, saying that it is up to the federal government to decide what it does with the information after it is received. The chief also said he does not believe he is in violation of state law.

“Our job is to enforce the laws of the state and federal government,” Hoornstra said. “All we do is report.”

Meanwhile, Michigan gun dealers are caught in the middle.

A number of federal firearm licensees around Genesee County said they have been approached by medical marijuana patients about buying firearms but had to break the news to them that they are unable to purchase one.

And while federal law does not require a firearm dealer to ask a potential buyer if they are a medical marijuana user, dealers say they have turned people away if they believe they aren’t legally allowed to purchase a gun.

“We err on the side of safety,” said Dan Compeau, chief operating officer for Williams Gun Sight in Davison. “Firearms are probably the highest regulated things that are sold.”

Edited by grassmatch

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