Card Mills (No Records Needed; Pre-Signed Certs, Often No Dr On Site)

[+Silverblue]

WOW! What can I say? I didn't expect so many responses so quickly, but I am glad to see them. You have all given me some important points to consider. At least something good will come of this thread, even if it wasn't expected. I hope Dizz can get help for her pt's. That would be awesome. I wish we had more good drs who are willing and able to travel to do the certs for those who are most ill.

 

Phaq, I was exhausted by the time I was done with this, I couldn't remember all the info I needed, I was too tired to look for it and went straight to bed. Now I come here and see all these posts and need to decide what to do. So far it seems to me I'd be the only one listing a bad clinic, though I know there are a few others.

 

Dr. Bob, I'm very glad you responded, thanks for taking the time to read and post here. I will re-read what you said, will probly re-read everyone's message. They are very important to me and to our community.

 

I'm gonna attempt to answer everyone's concerns here, so here it goes:

 

The problem with the recreational users is also hurting us very badly- we're all being lumped together, just like the good drs are being lumped in with the bad ones. We're constantly doing damage control. It's a difficult task, but together we can accomplish something, I truly do believe. There are 17 bills being set against us, it's overwhelming, we have so much to fight. It seems to be an endless struggle. At the heart of the matter is the dr issue. We need to all work together to save our law and keep our medicine safe in our control. It's unbelievable what they're throwing at us, what an obvious contempt they have for us, just because it's mj, and now that there's a legal, medical use for it, the vultures are swooping down for the kill. Whenever it's something THE PEOPLE have, someone' always lurking in the shadows to snatch it away from us, control and profit by it, pretending to protect us, profiting on our suffering. Here we go again. This bs has got to stop. By the way I'm writing song about our miserable AG, which may be done by Sept. 7th.

 

Everyone had a point worthy of serious consideration. I wish we could all sit together and have a good, long discussion because some points were made that I hadn't fully thought out. I really appreciate seeing them. I am still deeply concerned about the mills because they are, in my belief, fueling the fire of the opposition against us. The opposition has created these problems and we have to turn it around somehow. I doubt they'll ever be able to have total control over the MM situation, considering how poorly the war on drugs has been going. They haven't learned by now, they may never learn. I've fought tyrants all my life. This is just the same, 'cept there's more of 'em in higher places. They are a disgrace to theor office and position and give a bad name to the good ones who are trying to do the right thing.

 

Thank you all very much for sharing your ideas and offering suggestions. We have to come up with a workable solution to resolve this and we have to get enough of our so called reps to listen.

 

I'd love to give the bad drs a chance to turn things around- that is a wonderful idea. We need all the good drs we can get.

 

Please continue sharing. Will creating this list will do more harm than good, as some have suggested? Whatever we do, we don't want to cause any more harm to this community. Deep in my heart, I truly believe that no matter how desperate someone is, using a bad clinic does more harm in the long run. If I were terminally ill and had no choice, I'd prob'ly go to a mill out of desperation, too, so yes, I agree, I am a contrast. I get on my own nerves when I have conflicts with myself. My problem is, I do understand the other side of it, remember, I went to one of those horrid places, so I'm not judging or condemning anyone, I just know that I couldn't live with myself afterwards and felt I disgraced this community by my actions. I know I may be in the minority where feelings like that are concerned, but even if I hadn't done it I'd still be deeply concerned about the consequences I'm seeing because of these places. My heart aches for anyone who suffers and can't get the care they deserve and has no choice but to go there. If I could, I'd help them all.

 

Thanks again all, let's keep the discussion going.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[+kurt klaas]

SB,

 

I admire your goals and efforts and your good writing.

 

I want to add, although the task to keep abuse out of mmj is a very difficult one, that is no reason not to do our best to try, like you are doing.

 

Thank you.

 

Kurt

[phaquetoo]

Don't want to start a pissing match here but there are no doctors/ clinics in the Downriver area. I have 3 patients who cannot travel, won't skype, and will not trust people coming into their homes (aka house calls). What other choice do they have without the compilation of a list of all docs who do certs. Good bad or indifferent there are those who have no choice, no PC doc etc. I believe the doc who certifies bears some responsibility for his choice of records or no records. I have asked that we compile a complete list of docs but have not had that happen. We have gone to a paid advertising only policy which may or may not prohibit us from spreading the word about the rest of the docs. It's not good to place limitations like this when so many are looking for solid information on who see. No offense to Doc Bob, but we are not helping the cause when we have censored ourselves to the point where we have only 1 active doctor representing us right now. I thought the mission was to bring us together not seperate us because ones views may differ from the others....perhaps I'm wrong and I do understand the reasons for paid advertising but we need everyone to feel comfortable here in spite of their personal preferences or choice of doctor.

 

No pissing match,,gotta get em to skype than if they wont go out,,Im sorry! I cant believe a cancer pt cant get a cert from their dr.? I beleive it though unfortunatly,,Im very sorry for the pt's prediciment..this should not even be an issue mm is legal!

All card mills should be closed ASAP! All they are doing is flooding the streets with non-qualifying straw patients who are and will abuse the law and bring the shite down us legitimate patients and caregivers.

 

Schuette is culpable for all card mill patients getting a card! His office and all of Lansing for that fact, have been made aware of and knew about these illegal non-guideline following criminals in white coats but continue to let them operate illegally.

 

This idea of warning them is a joke! Pull their medical licenses and throw them in jail!

 

The parking lot of a certain dispo on Dequindre is a great place for anyone to buy pot. Three young guys 18-22 from that area of Warren have paid for their friends to go to a card mill and now are growing for three straw patients.

 

And who will be blamed and suffer when they are busted? EVERY SINGLE LEGITIMATE PATIENT AND CAREGIVER!

 

I agree they should be closed but not asap,,I beleieve once our family dr.s start writing scripts there will be no need for mills,,,only for the fraudualnt pt,,rite now real pt's need some of these mills,,,circuses. bad dr.'s

I don't agree with all the criteria set out by SB as an example of a mill. There are some of those things I do, but the bottom line every patient I see (and I actually see them) has medical records that I review, and I not only do follow up, I keep up with the rulings to make sure a chart is defensible. I spend as much time with each patient as necessary to make sure they are qualified and all their questions are answered. I am also available during the entire year and patients not only have my website when they leave, but my skype and personal cell number as well.

 

But overall, the basic uncomfortable 'something isn't right' feeling folks get from mills is the best criteria to use. Lack of a doctor or no need for medical records is a sure sign and should be avoided. These doctors that don't use basic standards of medical practice (records, visit, follow up) know exactly what they are doing. Everyone knows the local 'pill doctor' in town, these are the same types. You can try and educate them, but when the secretary is running the show, not the doctor, you are in a circus and a mill.

 

Dr. Bob

yup we need dr.'s like you also dr. bob,,ones willing to write the certs and do follow ups!

 

For me no problem, for my patients that can't travel huge problem. I have 3 terminal cancer and 2 completely unable to travel. The most all of them can take is a few minutes from home. They certified about 30 minutes from here but refuse to endure the pain of traveling again for re cert. I'm looking for them and I have paid out of my own pocket their fees when they can't. It's just not right to make the seriously ill travel like this for certification, as I said they won't skype either, far to set in their ways.

 

sounds like dr bob is willing to help out here,,,some thing needs to give a lil!

it realy isnt fair that you have to get renewed if you condition has not gotten better! that would help solve alot of pt problems,,but would make the state lose $$$$$ and thats what its realy about isnt it?

 

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

Edited August 2, 2011 by phaquetoo

[+Silverblue]

I disagree with what this thread is all about.

 

MJ is basically HARMLESS.

 

Therefore the potential damage to me is nil.

 

The burden of determining whether the standard of the state MMJ law has been met is NOT on me. It is on the state. If they say that the way I got my paperwork is inadequate, then so be it. I will go find another Dr to recommend me. It is not my responsibility to examine the bonafides of a doctor or clinic. As long as it bears some rough semblance of clinic, my burden is met.

 

The burden of protecting the doctor's license is on THE DOCTOR, not me!

 

The law against MJ is farcical, and I am not going to validate the anti-MJ laws by looking out for the state or for the doctor.

 

What the....?

 

Sometime I wonder about some of the people posting here. I do not have my card because I want to lose some weight before I go in. But when I do go in for my card, I sure as HECK am going to go for the cheapest and quickest "mill" I can find. I want to be in and out of there really quick. And I want it cheap.

 

Fact is, I don't have much use for doctors. Been there, done that. They have never helped me, and I have never asked for much help.

Just give me my card and in return I will give you a suitable sum of $.

And yes, because I am old, I do have qualifying illness. Most old people do. And I have been waiting many decades to grow and consume cheap and good MJ in a legal fashion. I moved up here to do so.

I'm sorry you disagree but at least you're honest. I wonder about some of the people who post here, too. I've been on this site for over a year and my concerns are genuine, I'm concerned about YOUR RIGHTS and YOUR SAFETY, too. The state is not holding up their end of the situation, THAT'S WHY WE feel we have to be doing these things. You're entitled to your opinion, but there's no need to attack me and others who disagree with you, we're not attacking you, we are trying to PROTECT OUR RIGHTS and that includes YOU, too. I hope you can stay out of leo's grasp and don't get dragged through the courts and have to have your certification dr testify on your behalf. As a grower, you're more likely to draw their attention, regardless how compliant you are. This site is filled with grower horror stories. Your safety and rights are still my concern, so, ya see, although you dislike me, I'm still concerned for YOUR safety and rights. I will not argue with you. Do as you will, I hope you'll be safe and your medicine helps you.

 

You could've made your point without saying Sometimes you wonder about the people posting here. I disagree with a lot of what goes on here, so what? Remember we're all on the same side here. We're fighting to save this law, and one way of doing that is to take away the things that are fueling their abuse against us. People fight in the only way they know how. I'm sorry you have to go to one of those mills. I acknowledge your needs, it's not your fault you have to, if that's all you can afford, but that mill would never exist if you were able to see a dr regularly who would recommend MM for you. That's my main point. I'm trying to show you how you'd benefit if these mills didn't exist.

 

What the.... re: validation: WE don't want to validate the state's anti mj laws either, and we shouldn't HAVE to validate the dr. I have little use for drs too, but there are some good ones out there who genuinely do care and like it or not, we need them, and we need them to do their job properly. If I go to a bad dr, I feel responsible for informing others about it. That dr doesn't just see me, but many other people. Not everyone is willing to be accountable and responsible for their actions. Someone has to take the initiative to do it. If you don't want to, no one's gonna force you to. You just haven't found the right one. I've found a few, but they're too few and far between, so I understand your feelings against them.

 

IF the state would IMPLEMENT the law and let the drs do the certs, most of this crap would not be happening. You'd have your primary dr write a recommendation for you, which you wouldn't have to pay for, I hope, being it's YOUR regular dr. They write recommendations for others things and as far as I know they don't charge extra for it, so I'd think if it were a person's regular dr there should be no extra charge. I don't like seeing drs, I hate hospitals, I do my best to avoid them. If you're unable to afford care, I am sorry. Most of us are in the same situation. I get a little bit of care, but only what's absolutely necessary, and I'm thankful for that little bit.

 

We know the Truth about mj. Sadly the burden of proof is being forced upon us. It's wrong, we know that. We shouldn't have to prove anything- the voters gave us this law. I'm on your side about this burden of proof problem. We disagree about the mills, you may not have seen that I understand why they exist. As more drs come around to recommending MM, the mills will start disappearing. The state has created the need for them, and now these places fill a need that should only be an issue between us and our drs. Can we agree on that much?

 

Peace.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[+Dizledot]

I'm sorry you disagree but at least you're honest. I wonder about some of the people who post here, too. I've been on this site for over a year and my concerns are genuine, I'm concerned about YOUR RIGHTS and YOUR SAFETY, too. The state is not holding up their end of the situation, THAT'S WHY WE feel we have to be doing these things. You're entitled to your opinion, but there's no need to attack me and others who disagree with you, we're not attacking you, we are trying to PROTECT OUR RIGHTS and that includes YOU, too. I hope you can stay out of leo's grasp and don't get dragged through the courts and have to have your certification dr testify on your behalf. As a grower, you're more likely to draw their attention, regardless how compliant you are. This site is filled with grower horror stories. Your safety and rights are still my concern, so, ya see, although you dislike me, I'm still concerned for YOUR safety and rights. I will not argue with you. Do as you will, I hope you'll be safe and your medicine helps you.

 

You could've made your point without saying Sometimes you wonder about the people posting here. I disagree with a lot of what goes on here, so what? Remember we're all on the same side here. We're fighting to save this law, and one way of doing that is to take away the things that are fueling their abuse against us. People fight in the only way they know how. I'm sorry you have to go to one of those mills. I acknowledge your needs, it's not your fault you have to, if that's all you can afford, but that mill would never exist if you were able to see a dr regularly who would recommend MM for you. That's my main point. I'm trying to show you how you'd benefit if these mills didn't exist.

 

What the.... re: validation: WE don't want to validate the state's anti mj laws either, and we shouldn't HAVE to validate the dr. I have little use for drs too, but there are some good ones out there who genuinely do care and like it or not, we need them, and we need them to do their job properly. If I go to a bad dr, I feel responsible for informing others about it. That dr doesn't just see me, but many other people. Not everyone is willing to be accountable and responsible for their actions. Someone has to take the initiative to do it. If you don't want to, no one's gonna force you to. You just haven't found the right one. I've found a few, but they're too few and far between, so I understand your feelings against them.

 

IF the state would IMPLEMENT the law and let the drs do the certs, most of this crap would not be happening. You'd have your primary dr write a recommendation for you, which you wouldn't have to pay for, I hope, being it's YOUR regular dr. They write recommendations for others things and as far as I know they don't charge extra for it, so I'd think if it were a person's regular dr there should be no extra charge. I don't like seeing drs, I hate hospitals, I do my best to avoid them. If you're unable to afford care, I am sorry. Most of us are in the same situation. I get a little bit of care, but only what's absolutely necessary, and I'm thankful for that little bit.

 

We know the Truth about mj. Sadly the burden of proof is being forced upon us. It's wrong, we know that. We shouldn't have to prove anything- the voters gave us this law. I'm on your side about this burden of proof problem. We disagree about the mills, you may not have seen that I understand why they exist. As more drs come around to recommending MM, the mills will start disappearing. The state has created the need for them, and now these places fill a need that should only be an issue between us and our drs. Can we agree on that much?

 

Peace.

 

Sincerely, Sb

 

 

Well stated, but the fact still remains we have qualifying patients who for whatever the reason may be have used card mills. I honest don't think we would have as many qualified patients in the program if not for the mills. However we have those who have tainted things who don't truly qualify. I do have to agree that those doctors have put their credentials on the line by allowing no documentation certs and that most certainly is their problem to deal with should that time come. Let's look at another twist to this, should the patient choose to use a no document needed clinic but truly qualifies would it necessarily reflect back on the patient or doctor...most likely the doc for not following the law. Now take the non qualifying person who is just looking for legal recreational use, no documentation and the doctor certifies this person...I believe in a court of law they both broke the law. If you qualify and have the documentation to back it up we should have some sort of protection under the current law no matter where we got certified.

 

We also need to remember that we all have our own opinions which may differ from others. It's these differences of opinions that make it possible to create solutions.

[cristinew]

we need the clincs the va and tribal dr will not sign, so wher is a patient to go if you shut dowwn the clinics?

[+Bethany]

I'm torn sometimes. I think the "mills" that just sign them to make a buck should not be open. BUT there are A LOT of people that only have records that are 10-15 years old, or some dont have any at all but have the need to get legal so they can have releif. SO I'm torn, Marijuana doesnt hurt people, and our young generation is being put on these horrible synthetic drugs that are addicting and ruining their lives. Im 25, and havent had to take the pain killers for over a year now, one due to dr's wont work with me and the MM, 2 I dont want to take them all the time, 3. Marijuana takes the edge off most of the time so I dont need them, I use lotion and eat muffins and take the capsules. I went to my pain management, they dont want me to use my lotion, or muffins, or "smoke pot" all the time, they would rather me take METHADONE!! Wtf??? Lets not give me vicodin or percs, or bunny muffin even morphine like I used to take, but all the way to the top to methadone, ? Im 25, why give me something highly addictive, most abused and will eat wholes in my liver?? They are giving that bunny muffin out more and more to any young person in "pain", and people are only going downhill when they are on those!

Ranting Sorry

But back to the point, Some people dont have records, and Ive met several, but should be able to get legal for MM. Im in northern Michigan, and people are Poor... They cant afford dr's, but deserve relief just as you and I do! I have insurancce, medical records, but ONLY becuase it was a workers Comp Ins...

So how can we make it work for them and not just the signature mills that sign for just anyone???

Peace

[Guest Happy Guy]

There were industry standards in place before our law was even in effect that we can't get around no matter what the need is. Check with THCF and you will get the industry standard quoted to you. Nothing less than the standard will stand up in court. If your clinic makes it easier to qualify, chances are they are giving you zero protection if you were to have to go to court.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Happy Guy

[+Silverblue]

I'm torn up about all this too and that's why I wrote this thread, because I DO UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR THE DANG MILLS but there has to be a better way. My solution is to make the primary drs sign the papers and work with US. I KNOW THAT' SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW AND IN THE MEANTIME what ARE THOSE WHO really need mm SUPPOSED TO DO? IS there a solution? Our lawmakers, leo, etc. CAUSED this problem, and they don't care to fix it, all they care about is blaming and punishing US and CONTROLLING US with their goddamm 17 bill proposal that will KILL OUR LAW and kill many of us, too. It seems to me that's what they really want. I'll stay alive as long as I can to be a thorn in their miserable bodies.

 

The idea of gradually phasing the mills out is doable- I like it. If I were controlling this situation that's how I'd handle it- I'd start with "no dr on site" ones and have them removed outright, at least make them have a dr on site, for cripes sake.

 

Places like the VA, and tribal drs, are hiding behind fed law, unfortunately. Oh how convenient, if someone disagrees, to hide their personal views that way. Well we can see right through it. This is at the core of the whole mj/mm problem, and obama isn't helping much either. Despite anything he's said about MM being a low priority, the feds are still making threats and doing their darndest to ruin peoples' lives. Have they only gone after the large grows? Have they respected the rights of the compliant growers and patients who are staying within their limits? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. The feds ain't gonna back down any time soon, apparently, despite the state's RIGHT to have their votes count. I'm beside myself here and feel as torn up as anyone else is. Our miserable AG and governor could be helping us instead of hurting us, by making sure our law IS IMPLEMENTED, even if those 2, among others, disagree with it. It's The Peoples' WILL, it's OUR LAW, OUR RIGHT, and OUR MEDICINE.

 

So, what next? We have to make our so called reps see that THEY caused the mills to exist. Dr. Bob's evidence will prove that. Our lawmakers NEED TO KNOW WHY THIS PROBLEM EXISTS. We don't have to outright blame them, that wouldn't be productive, but we can point out the situation as it is, not enough drs sign certs, therefore these mills have popped up to fulfill a need. Having a primary care dr willing to help will prevent most unqualified pts from getting certs. Have I missed any important details? Please help me get this right. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here. Everyone who truly needs it should be given the chance to have MM and not be attacked for using it. Our pt/cg system is an excellent idea, if only the program would be allowed to work. Our reps don't want it to work, they don't care to allow it, it'd prove them wrong to see it doing what it's supposed to do.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[thanks2]

If we accuse a mill of being a mill and it is not, we could be held legally liable. No reason to give the opposition fuel for the fire.

 

Plus the spin master will accuse us of advertising these mills.

 

A thread full of the A+ clinics would be a better idea. Positive breeds positive.

Edited August 2, 2011 by thanks2

[Dr. Bob]

Time to put on the 'harsh' doctor hat for a moment.

 

One poster washes his hands of this, saying it is up to others to look out for him, and if the cops don't like how he got his card, he'll just go see another more to their suiting. WRONG. You will go to jail. There is no second chance when it comes to MMJ, and then you will be held up as an example about 'what is grey about the law....this guy just paid $50 with no records and got a card...'. That, my friends hurts more than just you. You are risking our law, other patients and even me with that type of attitude. I suggest you take a moment and think through the implications of your post. This isn't about MMJ being harmless, it is, nor is it about legalization for all use, it is about the MMMA, a gift from the voters of Michigan and a responsibility for us to live up to. There are rules, we need to follow them. Playing it loose and fast is the quickest way to build public opinion against us. Think about the implications of what you suggest and how the GENERAL public, not just us, would view. Perhaps substituting oxycontin for MMJ and holding those to the same standards (or lack of them) you suggest may make it clearer.

 

As for the cost of going to the doctor to get records. MMJ isn't free either, either is growing it. It is a matter of priorities. If doing it right means a little less for MMJ in the short run, do it. Folks need to see a doctor to get check ups periodically. Furthermore, look at 'chronic severe' pain as required for a cert. Chronic- lasting greater than 3 months. Severe- you have to DO something about it. The argument that it is ok to go to a cheap mill because it is that or food on the table is absurd. Proper documentation by seeing a doctor is not the only choice. You seem to imply that expense of the MMJ (buying and or growing it) isn't in the equation. We are talking the cost of 2 oz of meds to get a record and a defensible cert, what is that in the big scheme of things over a year? Using 1 oz a month is pretty average from what I hear. Rather than 12 oz a year, why not use 8 and do it right if things are that tight?

 

When I sign a certification and charge for it, do you think I am charging you to sign my name? I am charging you because I have a chart, medical documentation and a reputation for quality standards that will back you in court if there is a problem. You can treat your condition without worrying about going to jail over it. Put yourself in my shoes- How am I going justify your certification when the prosecutor says 'severe pain huh, then how come he hasn't had it treated since Reagan was in office?' I broke my knee at age 16. It bothers me several times a month, but isn't bad enough for me to go to the doc myself and get it looked at or medication. I DON'T QUALIFY, much as I think it will help me.

 

The bottom line is that I need to protect my patients, the courts want records, so get them. You can say you can go elsewhere and do it 'your way' and I wish you luck. Go sign the affidavit, promise you aren't recording them, and best of luck to you. But remember, then YOU become the typical MMJ patient- no documentation 'just a hang nail' patient that paid cash for a signature so he could smoke his pot, in the eyes of the public, not my folks with cancer and glaucoma and years of documented pain in their medical records. Which group protects the law better?

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

If we accuse a mill of being a mill and it is not, we could be held legally liable. No reason to give the opposition fuel for the fire.

 

Plus the spin master will accuse us of advertising these mills.

 

A thread full of the A+ clinics would be a better idea. Positive breeds positive.

 

When I say something I can prove it. If I say something about pre-signed certs or no doctor clinics, you better believe I can back it up because I am not a fool that goes off sputtering crap that will land me in court with a judgement. So long as you can back what you say you are safe. As for a list of good clinics, I'll start it off with Dr. Bob Kenewell (Dr. Bix), Dr. Dave Croker, Dr. Mitch Cohn and THCF just off the top of my head.

 

It is just as important to do the bad ones too, and WHY they are bad. Most patients do not know the difference and only look at price.

 

Dr. Bob

[Guest caninabus0420]

I can see all points of view when it comes to the pros and cons of the certification clinics now dubiously being called "mills". However if we begin attacking the certification clinics or traveling clinics where will it end, the only reason I am responding to your post is the fact that there is an overabundance of no doctor on site clinics, but the main reason for this post is to show you what is now available on line for patients wanting to become certified. Take a look at this very popular website along with others like it and tell me if the "mills" or the doctors conducting this "mills" are so bad.

 

https://www.getlegalamerica.com/michigan/

 

www.getlegalamerica.com/michigan/

 

take a look at what is really going on in this business and tell me what you think about that?

 

I beg that everyone reading this understands our new law is organic and evolving everyday, the main objective of the program is to help as many people as possible who truly deserve it get it, and get it legally. We might not approve of how certain doctors are doing things, but in the end if we allow the doctors to certify and get the prosecutors and judges to acknowledge the legality of the card, then we will avoid having a judge or prosecutor determine the definition of a bona-fide relationship. Judges and prosecutors should not be allowed to determine or question the relationship between a patient and a doctor, there job is too follow the law not subjectively determine if the patient in there eyes qualifies or if the condition really exists. Who are they do question the relationship between a cardholder and the certifying physician. Everyone focus on the fact we are letting judges and prosecutors bring doctors to court and quiz them on a patients conditions, that my friends is wrong. If I broke the law I want my attorney by my side protecting me and upholding the law, I don't want an overzealous judge and prosecutor questioning my doctor if I qualify, that my friends is not right. So let's focus on the really matter at hand.

 

I'm torn up about all this too and that's why I wrote this thread, because I DO UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR THE DANG MILLS but there has to be a better way. My solution is to make the primary drs sign the papers and work with US. I KNOW THAT' SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW AND IN THE MEANTIME what ARE THOSE WHO really need mm SUPPOSED TO DO? IS there a solution? Our lawmakers, leo, etc. CAUSED this problem, and they don't care to fix it, all they care about is blaming and punishing US and CONTROLLING US with their goddamm 17 bill proposal that will KILL OUR LAW and kill many of us, too. It seems to me that's what they really want. I'll stay alive as long as I can to be a thorn in their miserable bodies.

 

The idea of gradually phasing the mills out is doable- I like it. If I were controlling this situation that's how I'd handle it- I'd start with "no dr on site" ones and have them removed outright, at least make them have a dr on site, for cripes sake.

 

Places like the VA, and tribal drs, are hiding behind fed law, unfortunately. Oh how convenient, if someone disagrees, to hide their personal views that way. Well we can see right through it. This is at the core of the whole mj/mm problem, and obama isn't helping much either. Despite anything he's said about MM being a low priority, the feds are still making threats and doing their darndest to ruin peoples' lives. Have they only gone after the large grows? Have they respected the rights of the compliant growers and patients who are staying within their limits? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. The feds ain't gonna back down any time soon, apparently, despite the state's RIGHT to have their votes count. I'm beside myself here and feel as torn up as anyone else is. Our miserable AG and governor could be helping us instead of hurting us, by making sure our law IS IMPLEMENTED, even if those 2, among others, disagree with it. It's The Peoples' WILL, it's OUR LAW, OUR RIGHT, and OUR MEDICINE.

 

So, what next? We have to make our so called reps see that THEY caused the mills to exist. Dr. Bob's evidence will prove that. Our lawmakers NEED TO KNOW WHY THIS PROBLEM EXISTS. We don't have to outright blame them, that wouldn't be productive, but we can point out the situation as it is, not enough drs sign certs, therefore these mills have popped up to fulfill a need. Having a primary care dr willing to help will prevent most unqualified pts from getting certs. Have I missed any important details? Please help me get this right. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here. Everyone who truly needs it should be given the chance to have MM and not be attacked for using it. Our pt/cg system is an excellent idea, if only the program would be allowed to work. Our reps don't want it to work, they don't care to allow it, it'd prove them wrong to see it doing what it's supposed to do.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[+Silverblue]

Remember I'm trying to distinguish between good and bad clinics- listing the good ones is an excellent idea.

 

List the good ones under a green heading and the bad ones under a red one. I had this all done and did something wrong, and lost my hard work so I'll do it later. If anyone else wants to do it, please do, no one has to wait for me to do it. I welcome the help.

 

Thanks everyone for sharing. I see all points even from the man who doesn't agree about the burden of proof. Dr. Bob explained it very well. I think we've all summed up the problems that going to a mill can cause. I just wanna do this right so it'll help people make the wiser choice, although it'll be more costly up front. IF I were renewing I'd be saving my money and would've made arrangements with a better clinic. We have to look out for each other, we're all we have. Knowing we have each other is a wonderful, comforting feeling. It's OUR community, Our medicine, and OUR rights.

 

I agree, we shouldn't have to prove ourselves to the state, but they're forcing our hand. I need to collect my thoughts, write them down, and explain this to our reps, the whole situation. My goal is to show them why the law supposedly isn't working, is supposedly vague, etc., and present solutions. Allowing our regular dr to write the certs is a point I can't state strongly enough. The drs MUST be allowed to provide this option to us, without fear of legal problems, dismissal, loss of license, etc. To me, that point is non-negotiable.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[Michigan Medical Gardens]

let the cops do their job. you don't need to do it for them.

[Camnibus]

Why should ANYONE be denied the use of MMJ? With a self-imposed witch hunt like this, the mentality expressed is "Only I can use marijuana because I'm special, and you're not"

I call BS....

Let the state police itself, they don't need help.

[CherryCrush]

I think people confuse an easy access physician and a "mill".

 

An easy access physician is a physician who may travel to different ares of the state, may meet patients in any type of environment, but also maintains standards of professional conduct and operates in the manner of a bona fide physician patient relationship.

 

A mill is someone who sells recommendations without ever seeing a physician, or an easy access physician who may travel the state(which is perfectly fine and commendable to make access to medical care easier for sick people) but does not seek records, proof of illness, does not discuss the patients condition, does not even take the patients blood pressure or vital signs, does not offer any followup availability(if needed) and generally is pumping through 100 patients a day.

 

we know who they are, or were, and who fits into which category.

 

Like i said, give physicians the knowledge or direction to maintain a proper clinic within strict acceptable recommendation standards, and most physicians will adjust their means of operation to come into compliance.

 

The police have already dealt with a no physician "mill" and i am guessing a few more in the future. The medical boards and Judiciary have all the tools they need to deal with the shady operations and eventually they will.

 

Use honey with physicians to alter their clinics and 99% of the time they will. They want to stay within the law and medical standards exactly the same as a patient does. Some patients operate outside of the law just as some physicians have. When given the proper knowledge, most will comply.

 

So communication and education is the route to success.

[rambozo420]

The clinics are needed because the state has failed to even start the process of reviewing petitions for new conditions.Which they are required to do.New conditions are a must period.Everyone involved in the medical marijuana industry will benefit and it increases are numbers. Also it would be nice if those making big money would give donations to mdch or lara so patients could get legal with the state cheaper. Oh yeah thats in the law too.

333.26425 Rules.

 

5. Department to Promulgate Rules.

 

Sec. 5. (a) Not later than 120 days after the effective date of this act, the department shall promulgate rules pursuant to the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.201 to 24.328, that govern the manner in which the department shall consider the addition of medical conditions or treatments to the list of debilitating medical conditions set forth in section 3(a) of this act. In promulgating rules, the department shall allow for petition by the public to include additional medical conditions and treatments. In considering such petitions, the department shall include public notice of, and an opportunity to comment in a public hearing upon, such petitions. The department shall, after hearing, approve or deny such petitions within 180 days of the submission of the petition. The approval or denial of such a petition shall be considered a final department action, subject to judicial review pursuant to the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.201 to 24.328. Jurisdiction and venue for judicial review are vested in the circuit court for the county of Ingham.

 

(b) Not later than 120 days after the effective date of this act, the department shall promulgate rules pursuant to the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.201 to 24.328, that govern the manner in which it shall consider applications for and renewals of registry identification cards for qualifying patients and primary caregivers. The department's rules shall establish application and renewal fees that generate revenues sufficient to offset all expenses of implementing and administering this act. The department may establish a sliding scale of application and renewal fees based upon a qualifying patient's family income. The department may accept gifts, grants, and other donations from private sources in order to reduce the application and renewal fees.

 

 

History: 2008, Initiated Law 1, Eff. Dec. 4, 2008

Compiler's Notes: MCL 333.26430 of Initiated Law 1 of 2008 provides:10. Severability.Sec. 10. Any section of this act being held invalid as to any person or circumstances shall not affect the application of any other section of this act that can be given full effect without the invalid section or application.

[+Silverblue]

The police are NOT doing their job and neither is the state. THIS is why we're all in this mess. I wish we didn't need the mills. The ones selling certs HAVE TO BE SHUT DOWN ASAP. I will not back down on that point.

 

We need a private registry program. It was talked about for awhile, I guess they're waiting to see which of the 17 of those miserably oppressive bills will pass. I hope none of them do. They have bipartisan support. This is very scary. If the mills hadn't existed, we'd prob'ly still be in the fight, though I believe those things are putting a big black eye on the entire movement, ESPECIALLY the no dr ones.

 

So, as I said, I acknowledge the need for the mills. "Easy access physicians," an interesting term, and very applicable. It seem to blur the lines though, maybe not for me but for someone looking in from the outside.

 

We've discussed these issues at great lengths, as all good thinkers do, we've established the problems, and offered some solutions. This could help us write better letters to our so called reps.

 

Time is running out. I hope we can survive the onslaught. We still have each other. Somehow we have to get this information to the masses. I know a lot of people are reading these forums. I don't do social networking, so I hope whoever does is spreading the word. Our vote does not seem to be important to our lawmakers. They do not care to help us, they only want to control and punish, profit by our miseries, and revel in their delusional glory for being so tough and mean-spirited. OUR VOICE MUST RISE ABOVE THE DEAFENING RANTS OF TYRANNY. We need a miracle.

 

Sb

[purklize]

Chronic- lasting greater than 3 months. Severe- you have to DO something about it. The argument that it is ok to go to a cheap mill because it is that or food on the table is absurd.

 

You can say this all you want, but people with real qualifying conditions will continue to go to clinics because that is reality.

 

As far as taking action on severe and chronic pain - I gave up trying to treat my problems after I lost health insurance, and spent a couple years moping and occasionally considering suicide. The bill to speak with a doctor for 10 minutes runs $100-200 and you have no guarantee anything useful will come of it, you could keep going back over and over and get nowhere because you're young and they think you're a lying painkiller seeker (I sure had no luck when I had insurance, luckily it was only a $10 copay for visits and the 16 non-scheduled meds I tried back then but even that meant I barely got to eat, I ate nothing but potatoes and rice for 2 years). You are guaranteed that you will eat less that month (hey, diet is actually a huge trigger for my migraines, I have to be very careful), so the decision for many is easy. Again I had records and I do urge people to try to get a medical record. I urge them to go to doctors with your standards. But I do understand when people decide to just see the med mj doctor, tell them the truth, and get their recommendation, no bs and a lot less money required...

 

As far as poor people affording med mj, I see a lot getting it for free or discounted, they don't necessarily have to grow it themselves or need large quantities (I go through less than 0.1g a day dealing with chronic migraines).

Edited August 4, 2011 by purklize

[Dr. Bob]

we need the clincs the va and tribal dr will not sign, so wher is a patient to go if you shut dowwn the clinics?

 

To a certification clinic run by a doctor that follows basic medical standards. Just because you are a VA or Tribal Health patient does not mean you should settle for some mill run by a couple of marketers using affidavit based certifications and an absent doctor.

 

Stop making excuses for these people.

 

Dr. Bob

[kzooareacaregiver]

It comes down to defending yourself in court. I used a legit Dr. for my certification, that way if I end up in court I can defend myself. You have to protect yourself people.

[purklize]

I would strongly urge no one to ever use a clinic with no doctor present/presigned certs for ANY reason. What I refer to are clinics with real doctors who are willing to see you sans medical records.

[Guest Happy Guy]

I would strongly urge no one to ever use a clinic with no doctor present/presigned certs for ANY reason. What I refer to are clinics with real doctors who are willing to see you sans medical records.

Why do any want medical records?

 

Because then they can establish conditions 'over time'. If you have a confirmed diagnosis for something that is always chronic then there is no need for more than just the diagnosis. But if you are going for something like chronic pain, a track record for this pain needs to be developed by documented occurrences. The best way to document these occurrences is to see a doctor and complain. Then they document it in the chart notes. The industry standard before our law went into effect was three separate visit chart notes showing the condition in the past three year period. If they give you a rec for chronic pain in one visit, without any back up medical records, they are cutting corners that could become a serious problem for you later.

[purklize]

That's a good point, and I am glad I went to one that took my (extensive) records on my condition. I really do encourage people to get records, I'm just saying I can understand when someone's income is so low that further expenditures can cost them their health (cutting into the food budget).