Just Like A Bad Caregivers There's Also Bad Patients

[The Pope of Pot]

You always hear about the bad caregiver, well I for 1 have some thing to say about the patients. As for the patient who has never grown b-4 they have "NO IDEA" what WE as growers go through for them. You dont just throw a seed or a clone in dirt and wait for the rewards. I have been growing for @%yrs and I for one dont understant how a patient expects you to just give them there meds. Let me ask this question: When you go and get a presciption filled at the local drug store do they just give you your meds without you paying for them? Ofcourse not! so why should any patient expect a caregiever to do it? It takes alot of time, money, work, knowledge, and effort to make the quality meds that ppl expect! AND NONE OF IT IS CHEAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[+EdwardGlen]

What about Patients who receive a disability, can't grow where they live or afford to and after paying all their bills, don't have enough money left to donate for medication...

 

flower'em right...let them suffer...you the Caregiver God shall pass judgement and let a human being suffer...

[Kingdiamond]

You did know how much compensation you were going to receive before signing on with this patient no?

 

Everyone needs to examine each patients needs and amount they can afford to pay before signing on with them that way you don't have to come here and vent when it doesn't work out..

[HELP!]

I fully understand, it takes time, money, ect to be a care giver, but when you take on a patient that you know is on disability and can't grow for them self, then you as a care giver have to understand that. Thats what separates our folks from the drug companies. Drug companies are all about the profits and care less about those who use their medicine.

 

The first part of the title is CARE. People like myself who are on disability and can't grow need people that understand that. Not just people looking to make a buck or two.

[Wild Bill]

This is how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention define "caregivers".

 

Caregivers. All persons who are not employees of an organization, are not paid, and provide or assist in providing healthcare to a patient (e.g., family member, friend) and acquire technical training as needed based on the tasks that must be performed.

 

This an excerpt from the MMMA Administrative Rules

Rule 333.115 Primary caregiver; number of qualified patients; compensation.

 

(2) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs

associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use

of marihuana...

 

 

I get the feeling, and have personally heard from several 'caregivers' that they are "only trying to make a little money". If that is your motivation then you are not a 'caregiver' you are a pot dealer.

 

If the meds cost you $100 on ounce to produce you should not be charging $400, no matter how good they might be.

 

If you are truly a caregiver then you deserve to be compensated for your costs to produce the medicine. I feel that it is up to the caregiver to be aware of what costs they are going to incur and inform the patient BEFORE any meds change hands.

 

It is also the responsibility of the patient to let the said caregiver know BEFORE any transactions occur whether or not they think they will be able to afford the meds at that price. If not then they need to find another avenue.

 

Almost everyone comes up "a little short" from time to time and if a patient finds that this is going to happen they should let the caregiver know before they are scheduled to receive their meds so something can be worked out.

 

These are standard practices in most business transactions and if these guidelines are followed then there should be no misunderstandings.

 

Both parties need to be clear on what is expected from each and then stick to the agreement.

[Northern Lab]

We need to establish arbitration boards. Thanks, Bb

 

Good idea. They could be an extension of compassion clubs.

[Natural Remedies MGR]

Ending the patient/caregiver debate is a good thing. Caregivers are poor people. The best caregivers may make a living. Most are prisoners to Consumers Electric. Having an agreement upfront is the most important thing. If it doesn't workout, then terminate the agreement. No patient or caregiver should enter into a binding contract for a fixed period of time, without an escape clause. Patient Care should always at the forefront. We're two years into this thing. Thanks, bb

 

 

This. +1

[mike44]

I think a caregiver should be able to break even, but I don't because my patients are low income and disabled. I knew this when I started, and I accept it. The reason I do it is because I like to help people, and I enjoy growing. If a caregiver is growing for 5 patients that use a large amount of meds each month, caregiving can affect that persons ability to make a living otherwise, due to the time involved. It is not hard to put 40 hrs a week into growing for 3 patients. I think in a situation like this, if a caregiver makes enough money to allow him to continue caregiving, it is not wrong or immoral. I am sure that no one ever intended for caregiving to be a highly profitable enterprise. I believe if a persons primary interest in caregiving is money, there are more suitable professions.

[lawyercaregiver]

joe could you please give a example of what would be a good written escape clause for both parties?

 

A contractual escape clause simply means a way for the agreement to end easily and (hopefully) amicably once certain conditions are met.

 

 

There is no standard language- just include something like this to your CG/PT contract:

 

"Pt understands that he/she will pay the sum of $$$ at the time of receipt of any quantity exceeding 1 ounce per month at the rate of $$$$$ for X-amount. PT and CG agree that failure to pay $$$ upon receipt of greater than 1 ounce per month provides just cause to terminate this agreement by either party upon XXX-weeks notice to the other party."

 

Or: "PT agrees and understands that PT will do A, B, and C while CG will do X, Y, and Z. If CG fails to do X, Y and Z or if PT fails to do A, B, and C then upon verbal and written notice to the other party and to the State of Michigan, this agreement may and shall be suspended or revoked at the option of the aggrieved party."

 

Remember: KISS- keep it simple stupid!

[kindbuds]

I had a mocked up patient/cg form that stated a 1 month notice if the patient wanted to drop me as the cg in order to finish their perpetual plants without being over and to allow time to root 12 clones if the patient would like to bring their strains to a new cg or start their own grow.I had this in it assuming as a CG it would be my resposibility to hopefully teach them over time to grow their own medicine and that the patient would choose their strains so I wouldnt nescearrilly want to keep their genetics either.I also had that if a patient wanted a strain that I did not have seeds would be ordered at the patients expense so it would be wrong to not pass any left over seed or genetics on to the patient.This was a while ago beore you could find clones of almost anything you wanted to grow here in the mitten.

[The Pope of Pot]

This is how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention define "caregivers".

 

exactly what I'm talking about. when we made the aggreement he was to pay for my costs and then when it came time to pay for the costs he started mouthing about how I was a bad caregiver and that I was charging him more than what he thought it would be. I'm just saying alot of patients dont understand all that goes into this. The way I look at it, is I dont mind helping a fellow disabled person out but dont put me out in the process because just like him I have to live on a fixed income too.

 

This an excerpt from the MMMA Administrative Rules

 

 

 

I get the feeling, and have personally heard from several 'caregivers' that they are "only trying to make a little money". If that is your motivation then you are not a 'caregiver' you are a pot dealer.

 

If the meds cost you $100 on ounce to produce you should not be charging $400, no matter how good they might be.

 

If you are truly a caregiver then you deserve to be compensated for your costs to produce the medicine. I feel that it is up to the caregiver to be aware of what costs they are going to incur and inform the patient BEFORE any meds change hands.

 

It is also the responsibility of the patient to let the said caregiver know BEFORE any transactions occur whether or not they think they will be able to afford the meds at that price. If not then they need to find another avenue.

 

Almost everyone comes up "a little short" from time to time and if a patient finds that this is going to happen they should let the caregiver know before they are scheduled to receive their meds so something can be worked out.

 

These are standard practices in most business transactions and if these guidelines are followed then there should be no misunderstandings.

 

Both parties need to be clear on what is expected from each and then stick to the agreement.

[Letterhead954]

I've noticed an attitude on the part of some on this site that troubles me. It's an attitude that it is uncompassionate or that you want to be a 'pot dealer' if you want to make some money as a caregiver. This is not to defend cg's that are trying to rip people off with high prices, but the market will take care of those people. I'm all for compassion, and applaud the compassion I see from so many on this site. But what's wrong with wanting to make some money? Does anyone believe that the local baker or grocery store owner (or any store owner for that matter) risks his money and busts his butt every day because he cares so much about people? For those here that work, do you do it out of the goodness of your heart? Of course not! We all work or start businesses out of self-interest (don't mis-read me here...I did not say 'selfishness'). Our first priority in life is to provide for ourselves and our families. Out of that come the countless services and consumer goods that are available today, making all of our lives better and more comfortable. I've had my own sign business for 31 years. While I care about my customers and will go out of my way to help them, the only reason I'm in this business is to provide for myself and my daughter. Even if I didn't give a hoot about my customers, they still benefit from my skill and labor in increased advertising and increased business. Eliminate the profit motive (as communist countries do) or diminish it with legislation, and you guarantee a shortage. This is simply human nature and the way the world works. If anyone would want more people to become caregivers, then this idea that it is somehow immoral to want to make some money from it is counterproductive. I believe that to be a good cg, compassion for patients is crucial. But without the hope of making some money far fewer will be willing to do it. There is simply too much time and money involved in growing. Is there a shortage of caregivers? I don't know, but if there is the best way of continuing that shortage is to vilify people who want to become cg's to make some money.

[asignman]

Well said Letterhead. In fact the reason I started my room back up is because the VA rep at "Michigan Works" told me in his opinion it was the best chance I had at finding work in this economy. From what I have seen visiting this site I am very hesitant to actually sign up a patient I don't know personally.

 

On a side note: I have to wonder if we've met before. Years ago I was a sales rep for Pioneer Sign Supplies. Used to travel around up there quite a bit.

[+Annnie]

I agree with letterhead.. Does that make me greedy?? LOL anyone who knows me wouldnt say that.. I also know i couldnt pay the lectric without some compensation and wouldnt be able to continue to do what i do.. and that would be a shame.. I LOVE MY NEW JOB..

[plcultivator]

I've noticed an attitude on the part of some on this site that troubles me. It's an attitude that it is uncompassionate or that you want to be a 'pot dealer' if you want to make some money as a caregiver. This is not to defend cg's that are trying to rip people off with high prices, but the market will take care of those people. I'm all for compassion, and applaud the compassion I see from so many on this site. But what's wrong with wanting to make some money? Does anyone believe that the local baker or grocery store owner (or any store owner for that matter) risks his money and busts his butt every day because he cares so much about people? For those here that work, do you do it out of the goodness of your heart? Of course not! We all work or start businesses out of self-interest (don't mis-read me here...I did not say 'selfishness'). Our first priority in life is to provide for ourselves and our families. Out of that come the countless services and consumer goods that are available today, making all of our lives better and more comfortable. I've had my own sign business for 31 years. While I care about my customers and will go out of my way to help them, the only reason I'm in this business is to provide for myself and my daughter. Even if I didn't give a hoot about my customers, they still benefit from my skill and labor in increased advertising and increased business. Eliminate the profit motive (as communist countries do) or diminish it with legislation, and you guarantee a shortage. This is simply human nature and the way the world works. If anyone would want more people to become caregivers, then this idea that it is somehow immoral to want to make some money from it is counterproductive. I believe that to be a good cg, compassion for patients is crucial. But without the hope of making some money far fewer will be willing to do it. There is simply too much time and money involved in growing. Is there a shortage of caregivers? I don't know, but if there is the best way of continuing that shortage is to vilify people who want to become cg's to make some money.

this is an awesome post and should be read by patients and caregivers alike...Iam my wifes caregiver(who has cancer) in remission now...I'm also a patient and we don't have a lot of money our electric bill has now surpassed our morgtage(taxes and ins. inc) I'm not complaining just stating a fact, that growing meds is a lot of work,a huge amount of time and literaly ties you to your home try taking a vacation with plants in flower, veg.and clones...there is absolutely no one I would trust to watch the grow....due to lack of knowledge ...if I was compensated just for the time alone I've put in for research on growing and putting out fires in the grow room(spider mites,defeciences...etc the list goes on and on)...it's not a matter of putting a few seeds or clones in dirt throwing a little water at them and low and behold 4 mnths later there's meds!!!!enough my whinning....peace out plc

[mike44]

I must have missed the part in the MMMA that allows a caregiver to run a business or make a profit from selling Medical Marijuana. Don't get me wrong, I certainly do not personally believe a caregiver should not be compensated, but what I believe doesn't count for much. The law states only that a registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marijuana. The way that I interpret this is that I can be reimbursed for actual costs incurred from growing & providing the medication to a patient. I am quite certain a court would read it the same way I do, and sooner or later it will be ruled on. It has been said before and I will say it again, if you became a caregiver to make money, it's gonna backfire on you.

I am honestly not opposed to someone having income from caregiving, I know the amount of work that is involved because I am a caregiver. It is disturbing to hear of people proposing the idea to the state that a caregiver should be able to have 10 patients. This is just unworkable under the current law. I don't know anyone who could grow for 10 moderate to heavy consumers and still have time to make an income to support themselves and their family. If the state were to allow this, caregiving would be transformed into a business and with that would come all the restrictions, requirements and regulations associated with a business.

We would be looking at licensing, permits, taxation, insurance, inspections, and the list goes on. The law was written the way it is written to protect patients, and allow them affordable access to their medication, it is also written to try and prevent abuse and profiteering. Our government and the people of the state do not want legal drug dealers, that is why the law is worded the way it is. If a 10 patient per caregiver or a profit allowing caregiver model was ever adopted, you can bet the state will be getting their 30-40% off the top, and we would face many more restrictions and regulations than we do now.

I am certain there will be quite a few people strongly in disagreement with what I say, and that is ok with me. The wording in the law would make it easy to prosecute someone that is profiting from this. I think I know how the court of appeals would rule if someones cable bill and their 36" flat screen TV were paid for with money they made from providing marijuana to patients.

[Wild Bill]

I don't have any problem with anyone making a profit. The problem I have is caregivers making profits within the confines of the law. The drug laws in the United States are wrong on many levels, constitutionally and morally. Until the laws are changed we must do all we can to protect the rights of patients that so many have fought so hard to obtain. The enemies of freedom will use any excuse to water down or repeal the Medical Marijuana Act. When a caregiver is discovered to be profiting from their grow our opponents will seize on it and say, "See, the law is just a way to enable drug dealers!". If you are caught by the State showing a profit, and don't be surprised when they start to conduct audits on caregivers, not only will you be prosecuted but you but you will be playing into the hands of our enemies. I'm sure that someday the sale of cannabis will be treated like any other commodity, but until that day we have to play the hand we've been dealt. It is vitally important that we all follow the letter of the law in order to protect what we have. Given the choice of defending the right of a grower to make a profit or the right of sick person to obtain the medicine they need then I stand with the patient.

 

When your primary concern is money then I believe your intent is to circumvent the law and you will hurt us all in the long run.

[TheBeagle]

Imo from the person who started this to me it sounds like you in it for the money... if that's the case you shouldn't be a caregiver. Correct me if im wrong but to me a caregiver takes CARE of their patients with money or not... how would you like it if say you were disabled and you cg said screw you ....no money no meds have some making whoopee class...

[TheBeagle]

On another note some one change this thread title to " just like bad caregivers....I am one"

[Croppled1]

I have not been feeling well so I cannot go into detail but people have very unrealistic expectations about the medical cannabis business and patients in general . There are allot of complexities and current pricing from the black market is not appropriate for patients or anyone to be honest . You can drive a 100k car or a 10k car they both get you from A to B . We can do much better and have to in lowering costs . Whatever it will take our Legislators have to be made aware of it . I know increasing weight limits would help as would reasonable expense policy for taxation of the business activity . Currently no expenses are allowed the full amount is considered taxable under Schedule C . Cannabis for medicinal use should not be taxed just like any other prescribed ( recommended ) medicinal item in Michigan . This is about patients if and when recreational use is explored we can set up parameters for that differently .

 

I have never met Mr Cain but I agree with most his views , learn and believe he cares about patients though maybe price controls need to be in place to incentivize caregivers to keep both expectations and costs under control . Recreational and medical users often have similar user profiles needing only a 1/8 to 1/4 ounce a week or less . However many medicinal users require 2/3 even more ounces per week for severe pain , oil treatment for cancer . Insurance covers zero costs we must seriously look for ways to control and reduce the cost of medicinal cannabis for the patients . This isn't from me but from Jorge Cervantes that has stated in his Grow Bible cannabis can be grown outdoors for $80 a pound and others have stated Sensi Indoors ( medical grade seedless buds ) at $25 a ounce ( 400 a pound ) . From my experience with the latter this is true not counting ones time . I know my room is set up to require no more then 30 minutes a day and it doesn't always get that . I sometimes go down in illness for up to 3 or 4 days in a row but I get by so others can too . I understand its hard to leave home but it can be done in emergencies if your in dirt . Legislators should allow patients to have a agent tend grows if necessary .

 

I believe in my heart if we have storefronts that create a liquid cash market and fair tax treatment $100 -$200 a ounce cannabis is possible with some patients requiring and receiving true compassion well under that based on need .

 

To give a historical perspective in 1975 gas was 48 cents a gallon min wage 2.10 and a bag of commercial Columbian red was $30 . Good Green called Maui wowie the same to $40 .

 

2011 gas $3.90 Min Wage $7.40 and commercial street cannabis $200 medical grade $400

 

 

The ratio of a gallon of gas to min wage is very telling . 4.375 in 75 1.9 gallons per hour worked in 2011 things are rough .

 

in 1975 a person worked 19.04 hours to buy a ounce of Maui Wowie 14.2 for Columbian red . Now that is equating to 54.05 hours or more and at our Farmers Market Model $200 27.02 hours . Can we get that down ? As you can see that leaves a full time worker only 13 hours to feed , ;pay for shelter and medical expenses if they use 1 ounce a week which for the suffering and dieing is very little .You can see where $100 cannabis or less is sorely needed . Over 50% of program patients can't work at all let alone 40 per hours a week .

 

We can do better for patients I so wish the nuns in Monroe would take this up and show us all how to do it with compassion . .

 

We have to get over our childish treatment of this plant as a Society .

 

http://www.infopleas...a/A0774473.html

 

 

http://www.ask.com/w...&o=102269&l=dir

 

http://hightimes.com/lounge/ht_admin/7146

http://www.dol.gov/w...ca.htm#Michigan

 

I hope this doesn't offend but expands peoples thought process and compassion .

[plcultivator]

I have not been feeling well so I cannot go into detail but people have very unrealistic expectations about the medical cannabis business in general . There are allot of comlexities and current pricing from the black market is not appropriate for patients or anyone to be honest . You can drive a 100k car or a 10k car they both get you from A to B . We can do much better and have to in lowering costs . Whatever it will take our Legislators have to be made aware of it . I know increasing weight limits would help as would reasonable expense policy for taxation of the business activity . Currently no expenses are allowed the full amount is considered taxable under Schedule C . Cannabis for medicinal use should not be taxed just like any other prescribed ( recommended ) medicinal item in Michigan . This is about patients if and when recreational use is explored we can set up paramters for that differently .

 

I have never met Mr Cain but I agree with most his veiws , learn and believe he cares about patients though maybe price controls need to be in place to incentivize caregivers to keep both expectations and costs under control . Recreational and medical users often have similar user profiles needeing only a 1/8 to 1/4 ounce a week or less . However many medicinal users require 2/3 even more ounces per week for severe pain , oil treatment for cancer . Insurance covers zero costs we must seriously look for ways to control and reduce the cost of medicinal cannabis for the patients . This isnt from me but from Jorge Cervantes that has stated in his Grow Bilble cannabis can be grown outdoors for $80 a pound and others have stated Sensi Indoors ( medical grade seedless buds ) at $25 a ounce ( 400 a pound ) . From my experience with the latter this is true not counting ones time . I know my room is set up to require no more then 30 minutes a day and it doesn't always get that . I sometimes go down in illness for up to 3 or 4 days in a row but I get by so others can too . I understand its hard to leave home but it can be done in emergencies if your in dirt . Legislators should allow patients to have a agent tend grows if necessary .

 

I believe in my heart if we have storefronts that create a liquid cash market and fair tax treatment $100 -$200 a ounce cannabis is possible with some patients requiring and receving true compassion well under that based on need .

 

To give a historical perspective in 1975 gas was 48 cents a gallon min wage 2.10 and a bag of commercial columbian red was $30 . Good Green called Maui wowie the same to $40 .

 

2011 gas $3.90 Min Wage $7.40 and commercial street cannabis $200 medical grade $400

 

 

The ratio of a gallon of gas to min wage is very telling . 4.375 in 75 1.9 gallons per hour worked in 2011 things are rough .

 

in 1975 a person worked 19.04 hours to buy a ounce of Maui Wowie 14.2 for columbian red . Now that is equating to 54.05 hours or more and at our Farmers Market Model $200 27.02 hours . Can we get that down ? As you can see that leaves a full time worker only 13 hours to feed , ;pay for shelter and medical expenses if they use 1 ounce a week which for the suffering and dieing is very little .You can see where $100 cannabis or less is sorely needed . Over 50% of program patients can't work at all let alone 40 per hours a week .

 

We can do better for patients I so wish the nuns in Montroe would take this up and show us all how to do it with compassion . God Bless .

 

We have to get over our childish treatment of this plant as a Society .

 

http://www.infopleas...a/A0774473.html

 

 

http://www.ask.com/w...&o=102269&l=dir

 

http://hightimes.com/lounge/ht_admin/7146

http://www.dol.gov/w...ca.htm#Michigan

 

I hope this doesn't offend but expands peoples thought process and compassion .

love the time and research you put into this post!!!...hope you feel better soon!!!....I'm curious about the cost of electricity back in 1975 and now..I'm sure the difference is huge...let's face it the utility companies are a monopoly with very little regulation as we all know (even though they tell us differently}...I'm sure you read my prior post...and you are all over designating to train a patient or another caregiver to tend to your grow in absence..this is a great idea!!!...me and my wife are advid campers, this year ....we went camping once for 5 days...within 20 miles of our home so I could go home to tend plants (due to a spider mite infestation) I grow all naturaly and treat any infestations with no pesticides...which makes it harder...I don't want to give my wife meds with any carcinegeons...which is why I don't buy from discpenseries....PLEASE...I'm not saying all meds are full of carcinegions ...I just feel better knowing I grew her and my meds!!!...I would love to get some advice from you on how to cut my time down in the grow room...again I hope you feel better soon!!!peace out...plc

[plcultivator]

love the time and research you put into this post!!!...hope you feel better soon!!!....I'm curious about the cost of electricity back in 1975 and now..I'm sure the difference is huge...let's face it the utility companies are a monopoly with very little regulation as we all know (even though they tell us differently}...I'm sure you read my prior post...and you are all over designating to train a patient or another caregiver to tend to your grow in absence..this is a great idea!!!...me and my wife are advid campers, this year ....we went camping once for 5 days...within 20 miles of our home so I could go home to tend plants (due to a spider mite infestation) I grow all naturaly and treat any infestations with no pesticides...which makes it harder...I don't want to give my wife meds with any carcinegeons...which is why I don't buy from discpenseries....PLEASE...I'm not saying all meds are full of carcinegions ...I just feel better knowing I grew her and my meds!!!...I would love to get some advice from you on how to cut my time down in the grow room...again I hope you feel better soon!!!peace out!!!

[plcultivator]

sorry about the double post...it's been one of those days...peaceout..plc

[Petyr]

Why does everyone ignore the risk growers and dispenseraries take when talking about prices? This is still illegal according to federal laws, and the local police will use any tiny legal loophole to blast the grower in the donkey. Not to mention rippers and robbers. I doubt a patient with their 2.5 ozs of weed worries much about home invasions, but for caregivers it is a real possibility. People have died.

 

Asking people who risk their freedom and safety to then turn around and sell their product at cost is ridiculous. Security systems and lawyer retainers are not free.

 

Its understandable that patients don't realize this. Deal with your heart skipping a beat every time their is a knock on the door for a few months and then come back here and ask for meds at cost.

[plcultivator]

Why does everyone ignore the risk growers and dispenseraries take when talking about prices? This is still illegal according to federal laws, and the local police will use any tiny legal loophole to blast the grower in the donkey. Not to mention rippers and robbers. I doubt a patient with their 2.5 ozs of weed worries much about home invasions, but for caregivers it is a real possibility. People have died.

 

Asking people who risk their freedom and safety to then turn around and sell their product at cost is ridiculous. Security systems and lawyer retainers are not free.

 

Its understandable that patients don't realize this. Deal with your heart skipping a beat every time their is a knock on the door for a few months and then come back here and ask for meds at cost.

Petry you are exactly right this is still illegal on the federal level...and with people getting they're houses being raided,dogs shot and grow rooms destroyed...I live in a state of paranoia every day, just the other day had a neighbor tell me there was a county sheriff that was out front of our house snooping around @10:00p.m.....I'm not worried on the state level,I keep everthing legal to the letter of the law (which seems to changing by the day)but what are you going to do if they prosecute you federaly...I tell you what you're going down! and just think about this...the patient who takes his meds home and happens to tell the wrong person about where it came from and your caregiver is facing a gun in his face and wanting all your meds!!! believe me it can happen!!!