I Believe The State Can No Longer Require The Id Card

[peanutbutter]

You will fight for every protection and right so long as you are not the test case. I believe that was the point of Cel's posting.

 

Dr. Bob

 

I've been the test case for a very long time. I survived an outdoor grow inspection ordered by Bill Schuette.

[peanutbutter]

 

 

But you're not protecting patients, you're putting them in more danger by giving advice that could put them in jail and acting as if it's fact. Your almost just as bad as Leo or Schuette because you are sending people to jail that follow your advice. It's sick. Why anyone would listen to some of the insane interpretations you have of the law, is beyond me. You even have lawyers telling you that you're wrong and you still insist on spreading bad information. You're the very worst thing that could happen to our community. You're like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

I guess that's your opinion.

[Celliach]

No that's fact. If people follow your advice/opinion they could end up in a courtroom and could go to jail. Fact, not an opinion.

 

...and how does your outside grow inspection impact the subject of not having an ID card? WTF? You're changing the subject again because you're wrong. It's a tactic I've seen you use many times.

[Highlander]

This is all silly talk. The constitution of the State of Michigan gives the governor the authority to rearrange the executive departments. To somehow suggest that because MDCH no longer exists that the MMMP is no longer viable/legal is a pretty big leap.

 

People, take a look at the other laws that currently refer to MDCH still. The Public Health Code, for example. If we take the position that the demise of MDCH means the end of the MMMP, then we also have to be willing to give up the following programs that are still legally under the MDCH umbrella, for example:

 

The crippled child program;

The Healthy Michigan program;

The lead paint program;

The Michigan Health Iniative Program;

The Chronic Disease Advisory Program, including newborn screening;

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. We'd also lose a whole generation of licensed health care professionals. Our entire health care system in Michigan would shut down in a heartbeat....and for what?

 

Is this what we want?

[Dr. Bob]

I guess that's your opinion.

 

See my previous discussion on Faith Based Logic. Runs right with 'legally compliant farmers market'. You can't change this Cel, it will continue to make the rounds as long as there are those that will listen to what they want to hear. This is just the latest in a long line of leaps of logic. Remember the multipage argument on whether grows need to be locked? There will always be an audience for this type of 'presentation' (not I did not use the term discussion or argument).

 

I believe these types of 'presentations' are put out there simply to cause a reaction. The clear implication there is that they are put out to play to an audience of folks that don't know better so that it is viewed as some kind of viable justification for questionable actions.

 

Dr. Bob

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dr. Bob

[+kurt klaas]

Peanutbutter:

 

“I don't want to be any test case.”

 

Celliach:

 

“....and yet you continuously give advice on this forum that could make someone else a test case. If you wouldn't do it, don't post it as advice.”

 

Response:

 

“I continuously give my opinion. I refuse to let anti logic go unanswered. I refuse to allow a single protection dwindle away because people forgot it was in OUR law.”

 

Observation:

 

It cannot be disputed that Peanutbutter, at times, gives advice that could put someone in legal jeopardy.

 

I want to warn anybody reading the legal opinions—and therefore, advice—of Peanutbutter that he is not a lawyer. Any lawyer, except the few incompetent ones (there are incompetent people in every profession--every ), would advise their clients not to engage in behavior that might place them in a position of becoming a test case in the legal system, regarding a point of law that has not been clearly defined, not by the supposed point of law on the books, but by an actual judicial system test of that law.

 

I respect Peanutbutter for all the sacrifices and time he has contributed to the cause. Our movement needs people like him, to prod and poke, among other valuable efforts.

 

Nevertheless, on this one particular topic, about which he is very wrong, I do not expect him to change his view. And the evidence is clear in his evasive, indirect response to the charge of hypocrisy.

 

Actually, I don’t need to point this out, because most people reading this stuff will see right through it without having to be told what to see. I just think it might help Peanutbutter to rethink his position on the matter of pushing the legal envelope to its extreme limit and not warn people at the same time of the possible consequences.

 

At the same time, I give thanks for all the good that Peanutbutter does do.

 

Kurt

[peanutbutter]

LOL I CAN'T believe the two faced judgement you have ..

 

Anyone says something here it is an opinion unless it's me .. then it's advise.

 

Go to hell.

[Dr. Bob]

Well said Kurt. You are far more diplomatic than I am, and that limits my effectiveness at times.

 

Dr. Bob

[+mayorherb]

I have a client who is a patient and was staying at a casio hotel for a conference. Went to her car for a med hit, drove to a quiet corner of the parking lot. Security saw something (flame?) on cameras and sent the tribal cops. Tribal cops hauled her to management. She was told in no uncertain terms that she was not protected with her MI card at the casino. Yet, everyone agreed that she should go about her merry way if she: 1.) waited a few hours before driving away, 2.) checked out of the hotel, and 3.) didn't come back for 30 days.

 

Cards carry a lot of weight - might not be 100% foolproof, but we are hearing more and more stories of FEDERAL cops who don't want to haul a patient to the slammer for medical use. SOME LEOs hate marijuana. MOST don't want to deal with it anymore. I firsthand heard a PA utter, in response to a MMJ case, "I wish they'd just legalize this shyt already."

 

I have yet to hear of the MSP taking the lead on any organized sting/bust. I think these bears have plenty to deal with already and don't want to get elbows-deep in an MMJ case. In fact, I have another client, also a patient, who was growing his own. 12 beauties in the flower room. He had suffered a break-in where rippers took only his previous flowering plants. So he was concerned about keeping the cycle going and got some cuttings a couple weeks before harvest. He fell upon bad luck when a State cop pulled in his driveway after seeing his car in the driveway and mistaking it for one involved in a high-speed car chase. The girlfriend answered the door, MSP female cop smelled marijuana, and pushed her way in. Just then the local LEO involved in the car chase showed up and said "no that's not the car. I was chasing a MAROON camaro; that one is RED." MSP was already in the home and on the way to the basement. Counted 12 plants and a bunch in Rapid Rooters in the cloner. She plucked a few out, and found a couple with root stubs and then pulled the rest. They took the plants and a gun and shipped it all to MSP crime lab. Fem MSP LEO said "There's a 50/50 chance they will prosecute."

 

That was a year ago. Still no charges.

 

MOST of the time the card works. MOST of the trouble patients and caregivers are enduring is at the hand of LOCAL LEOs who have an axe to grind already - either against marijuana in general or against specific people they already don't like. The local Chief LEO in my town of about 15,000 residents once said "we have a list of about 40 people we keep track of. They cause 90% of the trouble in our area." Guess what, if you are involved in MMJ and you are already in local LEO's sights, you will at some point probably get harassed. BS? probably, but for god's sake, stay off LEOs informal "out to get you list," and probably you won't ever hear from LEO.

 

Final thoughts: Who has heard of any charges filed in MI by the feds, other than the Lansing-area matter with the federal supbeona to MDCH that Bill S bent over on? I don't believe that there were any other federal arrests. John Roberts was raided, and his stuff taken by the feds, but no charges filed. A dicky thing for the feds to do, but by in large, the 100,000+ patients in Michigan have seen only negligble trouble from the state and federal LEOs. It is all at the county and local level.

 

Learn to play the game.

 

There are about 120,000 patients in Michigan. A reasonable estimate as to charges brought against patients for growing/possessing but still within the Act is about 300 cases since the law too keffect. That's one quater of one percent.

 

Your card is 99.75% effective.

 

We have come a long way in Michigan, and we need to spend more time emphasizing this.

My girl friends uncle has been pulled over 2 times..BOTH times the cop mentioned he was a patient.2nd time he got to explain he was a cancer patient and had beat Prostate cancer..They let him go..My other friend went to Renew her drivers licenses..the lady told her she needed to get off drugs...HOW do they know? How are they getting our info? This might be a great reason for some to not get a card..Just a Opinion..

[Celliach]

 

 

Go to hell.

 

Well that says it all, doesn't it? If you don't agree with peanutbutter's unsubstantiated opinion then you can just "go to hell."

 

Nice. Do you really expect people to take you seriously when you act like that?

[+Annnie]

LOL I CAN'T believe the two faced judgement you have ..

 

Anyone says something here it is an opinion unless it's me .. then it's advise.

 

Go to hell.

[Celliach]

My girl friends uncle has been pulled over 2 times..BOTH times the cop mentioned he was a patient.2nd time he got to explain he was a cancer patient and had beat Prostate cancer..They let him go..My other friend went to Renew her drivers licenses..the lady told her she needed to get off drugs...HOW do they know? How are they getting our info? This might be a great reason for some to not get a card..Just a Opinion..

I usually don't base my opinions on unsubstantiated rumors of people visiting the DMV. I've never ever heard of anything like that before, and I honestly doubt it's veracity. Not to say it didn't happen. The person might be remembering events incorrectly.

[Celliach]

It's important to remember that we really need to deal with facts in this movement. Opinions, emotions and rumors have no place in law enforcement, and it's LEO that we have to deal with on a firsthand basis. An individual officer couldn't care less about how you think the law should be implemented. He also doesn't care if you're sick or if you heard from someone else on an internet forum board that what you're doing is legal. They don't care about any of that.

 

If you want to stay safe you must base your actions strictly on what we know to be factual interpretations of the law's implementation.

 

Does that mean I agree with it? NO! If it were up to me patients coould medicate at the bus stop and obtain medicine at the corner convenience store. Unfortunately, I'm not in charge of the law's implementation so I have work within the confines of what we already know to be completely legal while work through the proper channels to change the implementation of the law.

[Dr. Bob]

They don't, it is a scare tactic, perhaps to try and justify not registering. Note the original story about someone that just had to medicate in the parking lot of a casino. Hope folks know better than to do that on federal land by now, and/or they are smart about it and use medibles for example.

 

I agree we don't need stories about 'my girlfriend's friend's cousin had this or that happen to them', especially when it is a rather bad example, like someone medicating in a casino parking lot by smoking, at night, on a security camera- and then making note that no charges were pending. This implies that there was some reason they weren't charged other than the obvious reason, if it even happened, that they were very lucky and 'let off' by the tribal cops. The DMV is pure nonsense. The ONLY way I could remotely see that happening is related to the story out of Flushing about the cops reporting folks to the federal database.

 

The source is just unreliable.

 

Dr. Bob

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dr. Bob

[+Annnie]

The Sec 8 Aff Defense is not available to ppl in violation of section 7b of our law. Never in public ppl..

[+kurt klaas]

Peanutbutter states:

 

"LOL I CAN'T believe the two faced judgement you have ..

 

Anyone says something here it is an opinion unless it's me .. then it's advise.

 

Go to hell."

 

Dear Penautbutter:

 

Thanks for the advice and opinion.

 

 

 

Maybe some humor at my own expense might help.

 

Of course, maybe I am mistaking myself for someone else, like LEO, for example.

 

At any rate, I have actually already been to hell many times. And it's true, it's a very unpleasant place, full of burning fire and emotion. One hell I find very repulsive, but find myself regularly entering in this world anyway, is the hell of nonrational communication. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to experience precisely what you have advised, which is the very exact same thing as your opinion.

 

Kurt

[Nemosity]

bottom line is you don't need a card to use afirmative defense now that the ruling from the Supreme Court came down; this means you'll be arrested, where you can use section 8 of the law if you have a doctors rec no card is needed as you are an "unregistered patient"

 

If your going to go about your treatment without registering, just understand that you can still be arrested, just make sure you are following other laws as well or you will have more than a mm charge in which section 8 will not help you

[bobandtorey]

Madison Heights Couple Challenge Warrant in Medical Marijuana Case

 

 

Thu, Apr 23, 2009 3:23 pm

 

 

 

Prosecutors were ready to move forward with their case Wednesday against a Madison Heights couple accused of illegally growing marijuana, but lawyers convinced a judge they need more time to prepare a defense under Michigan's medical marijuana law.

 

Attorneys for Robert Redden and Torey Clark said Wednesday they plan to challenge the search warrant and affidavit filed by Madison Heights Police in the case and to file a motion outlining the couple's defense against the felony charges.

 

Redden and Clark are physician-certified to use medical marijuana to treat their health problems and are seeking immunity from prosecution under the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act, which was approved statewide by voters Nov. 4.

 

Defense attorney Matthew Abel said the charges should be dismissed because Redden and Clark were legally permitted to possess the plants on March 30, the day police entered their home. Abel says the law took effect Dec. 4, according to the language of the statute -- not April 4, which was the day the state released its regulations on the law.

 

On Thursday, state officials further clarified their stance on the legal necessity of state-issued ID cards for medical marijuana users by saying patients are required to be registered and have the IDs. James McCurtis, Community Health Department spokesman, said that while the language of the statute does not specifically state this, "it is understood you need to have your card on your person to be protected under state laws."

 

Redden and Clark are charged with manufacturing more than 20 marijuana plants.

Edited June 17, 2012 by bobandtorey

[bobandtorey]

O'Connell's opinion is paving the way for the Rick Snyder way of handling Medical Marijuana in Michigan. Making it impossible and the pharm. companies and possible industrial growers more powerful.

Redden and Clark are clearly within the law: They did not have state issued cards yet, however, if you read the statute, it clearly states right on the state website:Complete applications, change forms and reapplications for previous denials are then processed in the date order in which they are received. If a denial letter is not received, then the application is deemed valid. The statute currently allows for a copy of the application submitted to serve as a valid registry identification if the card is not issued within 20 days of its submission to the department.

The raid was well after the 20 days after their applications were submitted, also cancelled checks serve as additional proof. NOwhere in the opinion or the case was this mentioned. WHY?

Credible doctor: THe statute calls for a licensed physician in the state of Michigan determining the patient will benefit from its use. The doctor relationship? well my husband just had a Microenscopic Discectomy, and spent all of 15 minutes with the physician that did the surgery. Never met him before in our lives and cut my husbands back open. Further, up in northern Michigan any doctor that has hospital privileges with Munson Medical center is FORBIDDEN from "recommending" the use of Medical Marijuana. THey will loose their hospital privileges. THere is a cancer patient who cannot leave his house. His Munson affiliated doctor was forbidden from recommending the use of MM. He had to answer an ad and use one of the traveling doctors. So for the Appeals court to be using this as another reason to remand the case is an outrage.

Lastly the reasonable amounts. The statute is the statute, they were within their legal limits, actually under. Combined they can have 5 oz at any time and up to 24 plants. THey had 21 plants and 1.5 oz. Are judges allowed to rewrite the law?

Rick Snyder and his cronies and the newly republican leaning supreme court to hear this case will make it virtually illegal to possess Medical marijuana. The law will be and is being completely ignored by the higher court, Paving the way for the politicians to control the industry, profit from it and control who gets it and who does not get it.

These patients are no longer using horrible prescription drugs. they hate the side effects. Perkacet, vicadin, valium, etc.... Pharma companies hope for medical marijuana users to be scared and get away from MM and keep using their toxic drugs. To think this case is not a political pawn is naive. The original court was correct in their verdict. The prosecutor and the Appeals court have pockets to pad, that is the only explanation for a raid on this little couple and their little plants and product. Its obvious and disgusting.

 

Only 2 issues in the statute are unclear: 1: where is it legal to buy and sell safely without feeling like you are doing a back yard drug deal 2. are patient to patient sales ok, black and white, clearly spelled out.

The amounts, the doctor, and what constitutes approval from the state IS clear, and the lower court had it right in the first place. REDDEN/ClARK were political pawns and they need to be restored to where they were, and be left alone.

[Willy]

Agreed!!

[knucklehead bob]

Madison Heights Couple Challenge Warrant in Medical Marijuana Case

 

 

Thu, Apr 23, 2009 3:23 pm

 

 

 

Prosecutors were ready to move forward with their case Wednesday against a Madison Heights couple accused of illegally growing marijuana, but lawyers convinced a judge they need more time to prepare a defense under Michigan's medical marijuana law.

 

Attorneys for Robert Redden and Torey Clark said Wednesday they plan to challenge the search warrant and affidavit filed by Madison Heights Police in the case and to file a motion outlining the couple's defense against the felony charges.

 

Redden and Clark are physician-certified to use medical marijuana to treat their health problems and are seeking immunity from prosecution under the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act, which was approved statewide by voters Nov. 4.

 

Did you ever get the name of the Judge that actually signed your Search Warrant Bob ? Or is that still a mystery ? ! ?

[pic book]

PB, Thankx for pointing out the error of the state's ways.

[bobandtorey]

Did you ever get the name of the Judge that actually signed your Search Warrant Bob ? NO Or is that still a mystery ? ! ? Yes

it is their is no name under the signature so back then the judge said he didn't sign it

[peanutbutter]

It cannot be disputed that Peanutbutter, at times, gives advice that could put someone in legal jeopardy.

 

I want to warn anybody reading the legal opinions—and therefore, advice—of Peanutbutter that he is not a lawyer. Any lawyer, except the few incompetent ones (there are incompetent people in every profession--every ), would advise their clients not to engage in behavior that might place them in a position of becoming a test case in the legal system, regarding a point of law that has not been clearly defined, not by the supposed point of law on the books, but by an actual judicial system test of that law

 

There are two different kinds of questions asked here.

1 what does the law say

2 how do I avoid problems with the system.

 

Many times the nature of a thread may be around number 1 AFTER the person has a problem with the law.

 

I don't see how discussing the law within that context is advise.

 

We're asked what we think here and we answer what we think. Our opinions.

 

So then .. please show me one location where I was giving advise on a legal subject.

 

What I deeply resent is you trying to claim that any time I post any little thing at all it instantly becomes legal advise. Note that you give yourself a blank check to discuss your "opinion" while it is evil to express my "advise."

 

Just in case I had to explain that two faced thing to you.

 

See .. this is my response to that ~"pb obviously gives out legal advise here."

 

NOW THEN .. Before this latest SC case not one single iota of the law had been tested all the way.

By your criteria, it was a sin to talk about the law at all before that.

[Croppled1]

Criminality and regulation that currently surround the program is hurting patients as well as the constant argueing all due to improper implementation in good faith to create a fully functional program with adequate sources of legal supply from safe access points . Personally anyone on disabillity will have issues because bureauchracy will create them at the State and Federal agencies patients depend on . Some individuals in Government and rehabillitation will never accept this law nor people who are dieing , being neglected , and injured by barberic medical treatments of our time and purposely cause patients difficulty . It is amazing our legislature has not investigated and fixed the improper time delays at LARA on cards , denials , and other necessary legal support mechanisms . Everyone is focusing on who might abuse the law and nobody is focusing on the patients . People in rehabillitation are upset because they can't place program participants in employment . I would never recommend this program to anyone that can work or see's that as a possibillity in their future based on the treatment individuals have received these past 4 years . If I was on the program I would obtain a card and do my best to stay within limits though I have found it necessary to destroy or aquire medication at high expense 99% of patients cannot afford . There is no excuse for 4 years after initiation of this program for it to be so confusing and difficult for the disabled to participate and understand their legal status at all times . Nor is there a excuse for all the individuals who acted in good faith to try to follow this act and have been thrown in the legal , jail or foster care systems which are also horrendously administred for patients with those that have been there often terrified preferring death then to be cared for there while helpless to defend oneself in illness or injury and be abused again . People have no idea how terrible it is to be a intractable / undiagnoseable severe chronic pain patient no matter what the source of disease or injury is . It is obvious our AG won't step up and help patients preferring to work against and overturn this law . Who in State Government will lead and protect the ill and injured ? Who can organize LARA to meet proper time frames and make sure patients who are dieing or suffering to the point of diminished capacity and most qualify for this program have simple easy to follow rules the disabled can follow and comply with ? Most patients that gravitate towards this program have been horrendously injured by the medical system through treatments that did not work even made them worse nobody can or will make right with reasonable comfort or have no current options in our time . They are hanging on by a thread trying to remain financially solvent despite a broken for profit medical system that often seeks to expliot them for profit or ego . How do we help them it is apparent the current choas is injuring many .

Edited June 19, 2012 by Croppled1