The Importance Of Decarboxylation In Edible Making

[Catfinger]

"Finally, HPLC is the only valid method for testing products intended for oral consumption."

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Not the only way.........I found that putting it in my mouth, swallowing it and waiting an hour is a valid test also. Science is science but you dont need a lab to tell you when something is working or not, just consume it....you'll know if its right.

[Northern Lab]

"Finally, HPLC is the only valid method for testing products intended for oral consumption."

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Not the only way.........I found that putting it in my mouth, swallowing it and waiting an hour is a valid test also. Science is science but you dont need a lab to tell you when something is working or not, just consume it....you'll know if its right.

 

I think what Zach means is that you don't know for sure that you have fully activated all the cannabinoids in your edible unless you have HPLC analysis done. You could do your own test like you describe, but you still don't know for sure if you have leftover THCA in your edible. If you do, you're leaving some potency on the table.

[Cannalytics]

"Finally, HPLC is the only valid method for testing products intended for oral consumption."

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Not the only way.........I found that putting it in my mouth, swallowing it and waiting an hour is a valid test also. Science is science but you dont need a lab to tell you when something is working or not, just consume it....you'll know if its right.

 

If you're making your own products that's fine. But I've spoke to several patients who have been disappointed that edibles haven't worked for them and also a great number of patients who unknowingly consumed much more than their comfort threshold and have had severe panic attacks. By ingesting tested products, patients can predict the effects and plan their consumption accordingly. The main point that I was trying to make was that HPLC is unique in its ability to determine the degree of THC activation/decarboxylation compared to GC. Dan from Northern Labs is correct that products will still work without full decarboxylation but in order to properly quantify active THC in products and to optimize production processes HPLC is the best method. Thanks for all of your input on this thread Dan!

[Dilligaf]

I don't know much about GC but doesn't it involve heating the sample to vaporize it? One would think that if the sample is heated then some decarboxylation would occur during the heating process. In my limited mind this would skew the testing results. Anyone that is more in the know care to expand on this theory?

 

Mike

[Cannalytics]

I don't know much about GC but doesn't it involve heating the sample to vaporize it? One would think that if the sample is heated then some decarboxylation would occur during the heating process. In my limited mind this would skew the testing results. Anyone that is more in the know care to expand on this theory?

 

Mike

 

During GC analysis, all of the THCA will be converted to THC before it reaches the detector since the column is located within a temperature controlled oven. For plant material and concentrates intended for vaporization or smoking, this doesn't present any problems and GC is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable method.

 

For products intended for oral consumption, liquid chromatography is the only valid method because the THCA and THC can be independently quantified, whereas a GC would combine these two values leading to an overestimate of the amount of activated THC which for some products could be significant considering they are only minimally activated.

[Cannalytics]

[Northern Lab]

Good stuff here Zach! Thank You for all this info and your extensive research into this subject!

[cristinew]

I am wondering if this machine will decarboxylat and keep most of the terpenes since its recommended not to open this machine until it has cooled. i think testing is needed,

 

Here is the ISO machine, it does the heating without releasing the the good into the air,

http://i40.tinypic.com/auuwxt.jpg

 

I think Rick Simpson cooks alot off into the air

Edited February 13, 2012 by cristinew

[Cannalytics]

I am wondering if this machine will decarboxylat and keep most of the terpenes since its recommended not to open this machine until it has cooled. i think testing is needed,

 

Here is the ISO machine, it does the heating without releasing the the good into the air,

http://i40.tinypic.com/auuwxt.jpg

 

I think Rick Simpson cooks alot off into the air

 

You are correct that most RSO will be devoid of terpenes. The only way to compare different methods is to test the products that each produces! My guess would be that you may be able to retain more terpenes if you were to remove the extraction solvent with minimal heat under in a negative pressure (vacuum-driven) system, followed by decarboxylation in a sealed, high-pressure vessel. Or you can always spike your RSO with food-grade terpenes!

[DocSmiles]

Hello-

Thank you for the posts I've been searching for something like this. I use cold water hash for my edibles. Durning the extract is any of the THCA turned into THC? I was wanting to make a raw product and was wondering if there was any other way other than cooking that can decarboxylate the THCA? I was also wondering more about the testing methods themselves. Did you create your own standards; and if so standards strain specific?

Thank you so much for your help to the cause

-DocSmiles

[peanutbutter]

There's a sliding scale involved.

 

The warmer the THC is the faster it activates.

 

Body temperature will activate about 25% of the THCa during the normal transit time used to exit the body.

 

300F and a few moments may do.

[t-pain]

i think docsmiles was asking if he could use a food dehydrator set belween 95F-140F to decarb the thca.

dehydrating food at a lower temp, around 100F is common amongst raw food diets. since a lower dehydrating temperature will keep the nutrient level higher in foods.

 

i guess the only way to be sure is to make some samples and have them analyzed.

one sample at 2 hours at 100F , one sample at 4 hours at 100F etc.

 

it would also be interesting to see if the turpenes were saved by this method. and if the dehydrator fan blows too much of the trichomes off.

 

finally, check out the thread about 'juicing raw cannabis leaves' , theres a documentary about it, and how it helps some people. so ingesting the thca does give some people theraputic benefits. whether these results are better or worse than thc is up to your body. like regular raw foods, you may have to juice fresh cannabis leaves to get the most thca. it may break down or oxidize into some other chemical over time. i dont think the science has caught up on everything yet. we're all kind of shooting in the dark and guessing based on what juicing does to regular fruits and veg.

Edited September 20, 2012 by teethpain

[DocSmiles]

Thank-you both.

 

I'm going to fiddle around with different methods and then I'll post my findings. I know of a few labs around me though I am unsure if they are accurately testing.

 

What questions should I be asking a lab to make sure that they are testing correctly? Is every lab making there own standards, or is there a relable facility to purchase them from?

 

I do like the idea behind the juicing of cannabis leaves and this is another thing i need to experiment with.

 

once again thank you for having this forum and checking it frequently. Kudos

[coconutoil]

Do your recommend chopped weed or bigger chunks of weed for "decarboxylation"?

[Northern Lab]

Thank-you both.

 

I'm going to fiddle around with different methods and then I'll post my findings. I know of a few labs around me though I am unsure if they are accurately testing.

 

What questions should I be asking a lab to make sure that they are testing correctly? Is every lab making there own standards, or is there a relable facility to purchase them from?

 

I do like the idea behind the juicing of cannabis leaves and this is another thing i need to experiment with.

 

once again thank you for having this forum and checking it frequently. Kudos

 

If you are looking at levels of decarboxylation, the only lab in the state with that capability is Cannalytics, because they use High Pressure Liquid Chromatography. Gas chromatography cannot tell the difference between THCA and THC, as all the THCA is converted to THC in the act of testing.

 

As far as I know, Cannalytics purchases their standards from Restek and possibly other lab supply houses, same as us.

[Buzz]

I have been decarbing buds for some time and love it! I can either use it in no bake recipes or just put it into a 00 gel cap and it knocks me out! I have a question about the trimmings though.....I decarb my ground bud in a glass baking dish at 300 degrees for 15 minutes. I have some 'sugar leaf' trim (the small leaves that are trimmed off the buds). Can I use the same setup and get the same results and use them for capsules? The trim is dry and jarred up, so I want to use it up! Don't need any butter, just want to do some caps. I assume they won't be 'as strong' as the decarbed buds but it should be close, no? Same time and temp???

[GrowGoddess]

 

If you are looking at levels of decarboxylation, the only lab in the state with that capability is Cannalytics, because they use High Pressure Liquid Chromatography. Gas chromatography cannot tell the difference between THCA and THC, as all the THCA is converted to THC in the act of testing.

 

As far as I know, Cannalytics purchases their standards from Restek and possibly other lab supply houses, same as us.

 

Thank you. It helps knowing that. For me at least. You just saved me a lot of money and some risk too.

 

When making RSO, I only use the rice cooker because it works perfect for me with decarbing. I have noticed that when my oil is done, the same oil, 2 to 8 weeks later it seems twice as potent. The potency change almost happens overnight, it is weird. I can't predict when it will happen, but it always happens within 2 to 8 weeks with all of the oil I have made. The more gentle I was in making the oil, especially when purging, it seemed to take longer for it to finish decarbing naturally. Simply stored in syringes in a cool, dark, ventilated area. I am pretty confident using 99% iso and the rice cooker, you want it to decarb around 70%. Trying to decarb any further will cause damage to the THC. Then allow it to sit after it is completely purged, for at least 6 weeks before use. That is what I do anyway. I believe that the remaining THCa, after the first process, within the 8 weeks it naturally changes to THC without damaging the initial THC.

 

After three years straight, not running out, I am 100% confident that this is true, at least with my oil and experience.

 

Thanks again for pointing that out. I was considering having comparison tests done. I see that those tests might not carry much value since I was looking for THCa and THC percentages. Is there a particular test that  you can recommend that would confirm those results with the oil? For example, have a fresh batch sample tested within a week of making and have a sample from the same batch tested 7 weeks later. This would be to confirm the differences if any. I sure do notice a difference when using it.

[+Malamute]

Sounds more like CBN increase.

[Norby]

Iron labs does decarb testing.  I was thinking of taking in some of my caps.

 

Wouldn't degradation to CBN take a lot longer than 2-8 weeks if stored properly?

[+Malamute]

Naw. It increases from the day it grows... ;-)  But definitely increases as the days progress from first cutting th eplant down, then add in all that processing and such with heat, pre- decarbox, then cooking it,... cbn is sky high and increasing rapidly.

[+Malamute]

CBN actually negatively effects my heart so I would never use that process. I use ice extraction then simply melting the kief into whatever oil based product I am cooking at that moment.  Keeps CBN as minimal as possible.

 

 Many people like CBN though(those that generally prefer oil/hash).  To each his own aye. :-)

[Norby]

Oh, so you don't decarb?

 

That stinks that it affects your heart.  Sorry to hear that.  That adds an extra layer of precision in working with your meds, huh.  Do you have to worry about flowers too(keeping them around for months) or just the extracts your eating?

[trichcycler]

I know for me I'm not interested in any buds harvested more than a month ago. My patients feel the same way. Extracts keep longer for me, under vacuum in dark glass. but they have a shelf life for us also, about 3 months. color changes are my first indicator in trichomes, and absolute or concrete extractions.

[cristinew]

Wonder if   hash oil will decarb on its own over time?

[Norby]

You can vacuum seal buds too.  I keep mine in vacuumed mason jars.  If I'm still growing it it goes into medibles after a month or so.  I still have some lemon75 that's over 3 mos. and still as good.