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Need An Electrician


Sinsemillaplease

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Last night one of my roommates ignored my cautionary words and plugged in his space heater to the same circuit as 1500 watts of light. Now none of the outlets along the circuit work. We had a friend over to check the breakers and they are all still working. He told us that one of the outlets is likely burned out but we can't find it. I need help from an electrician that can be trusted. Anybody know what might be wrong? Any electricians on the board?

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If you had an outlet burned out, ( I assume you mean it shorted out?) , that would trip the breaker. Some outlets have seperate trip protection too, if so it will have a reset button on the outlet. When the breaker trips, that de powers all the outlets on that circuit. How do you know the breaker is good? You can switch breakers with another of the same amperage to see for sure. With the breaker out or in the tripped position pull each outlet and check for problems, loose wires and so on. If your comfortable enough you can replace the outlet yourself, again with the breaker pulled. If your not comfortable call someone......shredder

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need a circut tester to check the outlets. ive seen breakers trip, and still appear to be in the on position. flip that breaker, off then turn it back on, if it immediately trips the breaker when it goes on, you have a dead short somewhere as you noted.

 

but if you didnt turn the breaker off, then back on physically, it may be fooling you. Im not sure its an issue, but if it doesnt retrip when you turn it back on, i would replace the breaker just to be sure.

 

im not an electrician, but ive electrocuted my self a plenty and im still here. lol

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If it was working fine until the space heater was plugged in most likely it was overloaded from the heater. Check the breakers like Timmahh said. Easiest is to just flip them all to off then back on as sometimes it is had to tell that one tripped.

 

After that then you need to start looking at the outlets. It could have overheated on the terminals of one of the plugs and caused an "open" in which one of the conductors is no longer making connection. It will either be at the last working outlet on the circuit along the line or the first non working outlet on the circuit. If you take the plug out and look at the terminals it will be obvious as you will see black melted plastic or some charring from the heat. You will need to replace that plug and turn the breaker back on.

 

Do you know which breaker controls that circuit? If so you could test all the outlets and see which are working, just walk around with a plug in light fixture or lamp if you don't have a tester. Then turn the breaker off and test again. Now you should be able to guess which one was the last working outlet and which was the first non working outlet. Most of the time, not always, the wiring will follow a logical pattern if you understand how the home was constructed. In other words the first non working outlet should be the one closest to the last working outlet.

Edited by jayt
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What I've done: First thing I did was reset all the GFCIs. They're all working fine. Either none of them are on the problem circuit or they're all before the outlet that isn't working. I've tripped all the breakers multiple times and had them all tested with a multimeter. Breakers are fine. Tried to find the last working and first non-working outlet. Not sure if I've found it yet but I've found one that looks a little burned out and doesn't work. It might be the one.

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you are on to it. what happened was a wire had a weak point (warning that you are exceeding safety limits) - where it connected to a outlet or bathroom fan. Wires fail where they were wrapped around a post, bent, or roughly stripped - the metal is weaker there.

Lights have their own circuit, outlets, motors like bathroom fans have their circuit - so that means you don't have to inspect light fixtures.

 

You have to remove and inspect each outlet as you work from the damaged outlet to the breaker. My problem occurred exactly like this - when a bathroom fan seized and caused the circuit to exceed limits - but it fried the wire at a outlet about 10 feet away - that was not even in use!

 

Reconnecting the wire is ok, but you need to find out why it blew - usually it was overloaded. On a 15 amp circuit, 80% of the load is roughly 10amp, a 1k watt light can pull almost 9 amps. Look for old fan motors in the grow room, they might have seized.

 

DN

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you are on to it. what happened was a wire had a weak point (warning that you are exceeding safety limits) - where it connected to a outlet or bathroom fan. Wires fail where they were wrapped around a post, bent, or roughly stripped - the metal is weaker there.

Lights have their own circuit, outlets, motors like bathroom fans have their circuit - so that means you don't have to inspect light fixtures.

 

You have to remove and inspect each outlet as you work from the damaged outlet to the breaker. My problem occurred exactly like this - when a bathroom fan seized and caused the circuit to exceed limits - but it fried the wire at a outlet about 10 feet away - that was not even in use!

 

Reconnecting the wire is ok, but you need to find out why it blew - usually it was overloaded. On a 15 amp circuit, 80% of the load is roughly 10amp, a 1k watt light can pull almost 9 amps. Look for old fan motors in the grow room, they might have seized.

 

DN

 

I'm pretty sure we have lights and outlets on the same circuit. Several lights no longer work as well as outlets. The path of the circuit doesn't make much sense... 8 light receptacles and 4+ outlets.

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The problem could be in one of the light switch boxes or depending on the age of your home in the fixture ceiling boxes. At one time it was very common for the electrician to run power up to the ceiling box in a room then down from their to each receptacle box on the wall. If you have been opening up receptacle boxes and are only seeing one "romex" coming in to the box then it's time to start looking at the ceiling fixture boxes. We stopped doing this decades ago as it's a pretty poor wiring method.

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I discovered that the problem outlets aren't on our main breaker panel. They connect to the basement main panel. Yes we have two meters and two service entrances for the one building. Until our landlord trips the other panels breaker, I can't find out if anything is actually wrong.

 

New dilemma: I want to wire up a 120/240v subpanel for my hid lights. Here's my plan so far. Replace two 20 amp 1 pole pushmatic breakers on the main panel with tandem 20 amp pushmatic 1 pole breakers to make space. Then I'll add a 2 pole 40 amp pushmatic breaker and run 8/3 nm-b from the new 40 amp breaker to a 40 amp GE subpanel. I'll put a 20 amp 2 pole breaker on the subpanel and run 12/2 from there to 2 (or 3) daisy chained 240v outlets.

 

My question is how can I daisy chain 240v outlets when they only have one set of connections on them? I could only use one outlet but then I would need a Powerbox or something of the like to power more than one light... unless 240v power strips exist.

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If you get 220 outlets with back wire terminals then you can connected two wires to each terminal. Each terminal will be a screw with a pressure plate, or washer. The wire is connected under the pressure plate and the screw tightens down the plate making a secure connection. If you can only find outlets with a screw that needs the wire wrapped around it then you just make little six inch "pigtails" off the plugs and wire nut them together.

 

The sub-panel is a good idea. That way you will have access to the breakers and can add new outlets and circuits easier.

Edited by jayt
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I discovered that the problem outlets aren't on our main breaker panel. They connect to the basement main panel. Yes we have two meters and two service entrances for the one building. Until our landlord trips the other panels breaker, I can't find out if anything is actually wrong.

 

New dilemma: I want to wire up a 120/240v subpanel for my hid lights. Here's my plan so far. Replace two 20 amp 1 pole pushmatic breakers on the main panel with tandem 20 amp pushmatic 1 pole breakers to make space. Then I'll add a 2 pole 40 amp pushmatic breaker and run 8/3 nm-b from the new 40 amp breaker to a 40 amp GE subpanel. I'll put a 20 amp 2 pole breaker on the subpanel and run 12/2 from there to 2 (or 3) daisy chained 240v outlets.

 

My question is how can I daisy chain 240v outlets when they only have one set of connections on them? I could only use one outlet but then I would need a Powerbox or something of the like to power more than one light... unless 240v power strips exist.

I have a Helios 3 lighting controller from Titan. I ran one 240v line to the controller and it runs all 4 of my 1000 watters on 240v. It has a timer and a 110v timed outlet on it also. No daisy chaining. Simple 10 minute installation. It has a 30 amp breaker built in for safety. Its a heck of alot easier than fishin walls and patching drywall. Mine was right around $200. Medcnman.

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I have a Helios 3 lighting controller from Titan. I ran one 240v line to the controller and it runs all 4 of my 1000 watters on 240v. It has a timer and a 110v timed outlet on it also. No daisy chaining. Simple 10 minute installation. It has a 30 amp breaker built in for safety. Its a heck of alot easier than fishin walls and patching drywall. Mine was right around $200. Medcnman.

 

 

:thumbsu: :thumbsu: :thumbsu: :thumbsu: :thumbsu: :thumbsu:

 

http://www.titancontrols.net/products/lighting/helios-3.aspx

Edited by Nemosity
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I have a Helios 3 lighting controller from Titan. I ran one 240v line to the controller and it runs all 4 of my 1000 watters on 240v. It has a timer and a 110v timed outlet on it also. No daisy chaining. Simple 10 minute installation. It has a 30 amp breaker built in for safety. Its a heck of alot easier than fishin walls and patching drywall. Mine was right around $200. Medcnman.

Did you run the same system on 110 and what is the cost difference. My electric bill went up $150 for two thousand watt lights and two fans to cool them. Then i have a 125. Watt CFL and a couple of 25 watt CFLs running. If i cqn save money changing to 220 i might consider it.

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My question is how can I daisy chain 240v outlets when they only have one set of connections on them? I could only use one outlet but then I would need a Powerbox or something of the like to power more than one light... unless 240v power strips exist.

 

If the outlets you have can not be daisy chained, take them back. As Jayt said, you need ones that have the duel set of screws on the back.

Chances are the ones with the duel set of screws on the back are rated for higher loads. I found this out the hard way when I wired up a set of 110 outlets for my 600 watters. Went to Home Depot and bought the basic 110 duplex outlets they have in the bins for about a buck. They also do not have the extra backwire screws. No matter I said, they have holes for three prongs in the front and it says 15 amp, 110v. Turned out they melted. Or at least one did. That would be one too many. I latter talked to an electrician friend who pointed out that the outlets labelled "industrial" have heavier duty spring contacts inside to prevent arcing which can be followed by melting. I should have bought the $2 duplexes instead of the $1 ones.

 

Anyway, point of the post is go back to the electrical supply store and buy the better outlet. Consider it paying for the education that the electrician that you did not hire already had.

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There is no way to install that Titan controller in a home and be code compliant. It's not a listed device and it's a code violation to install a 30 amp light circuit in a home. The reason it isn't listed is because the manufacturer knows that there is no way it would ever pass the way it's constructed.

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I have a Helios 3 lighting controller from Titan. I ran one 240v line to the controller and it runs all 4 of my 1000 watters on 240v. It has a timer and a 110v timed outlet on it also. No daisy chaining. Simple 10 minute installation. It has a 30 amp breaker built in for safety. Its a heck of alot easier than fishin walls and patching drywall. Mine was right around $200. Medcnman.

 

I looked at all the Powerbox, Helios and CAP models yesterday. As I suspected, they're all outside of my price range... and they require 30 amp 240 circuits. I'm not sure how I could install one without fishing wire and patching drywall though.... those are still things I have to do. I live in Ann Arbor.

 

If the outlets you have can not be daisy chained, take them back. As Jayt said, you need ones that have the duel set of screws on the back.

Chances are the ones with the duel set of screws on the back are rated for higher loads. I found this out the hard way when I wired up a set of 110 outlets for my 600 watters. Went to Home Depot and bought the basic 110 duplex outlets they have in the bins for about a buck. They also do not have the extra backwire screws. No matter I said, they have holes for three prongs in the front and it says 15 amp, 110v. Turned out they melted. Or at least one did. That would be one too many. I latter talked to an electrician friend who pointed out that the outlets labelled "industrial" have heavier duty spring contacts inside to prevent arcing which can be followed by melting. I should have bought the $2 duplexes instead of the $1 ones.

 

Anyway, point of the post is go back to the electrical supply store and buy the better outlet. Consider it paying for the education that the electrician that you did not hire already had.

 

I have not purchased any outlets... just doing research so I don't make any mistakes along the way. 240v outlets with extra screws are not available at my local hardware stores because 240v are for dedicated circuits, with few exceptions. Duplex 240v do not exist as far as I know. This is a NEC code issue... major appliances that run on 240v must be on a dedicated circuit.. I'm just going to pigtail them. Of course I'll be getting 20 amp outlets... which is why I'm running 12/2 to each receptacle and a 20 amp breaker on the sub panel.

 

Did you run the same system on 110 and what is the cost difference. My electric bill went up $150 for two thousand watt lights and two fans to cool them. Then i have a 125. Watt CFL and a couple of 25 watt CFLs running. If i can save money changing to 220 i might consider it.

 

The difference between 120v and 240v is current (amperage) not power consumption. I'm doing this so I can add more lights and accessory and stay under 80% of the 70amps my main breaker panel can support. I'm not planning to save money and I likely won't.

 

 

So far this is what I have on the way:

 

40 amp 240v pushmatic breaker (will control the whole subpanel)

 

!B6zv-KgBGk~$%28KGrHqN,!hUEyrvBoq1LBMyc6W1mLg~~-1_12.JPG

 

(2) 20 amp 110v tandem breaker (will consolidate 4 20 amp circuits to these 2)

 

!B9yKj8!B2k~$(KGrHqF,!lkEy+jC1OjmBM6w1H1NCQ~~0_12.JPG

 

 

40 amp GE main lug load center

 

0217f081-f089-4694-b71b-e993eabfd329_100.jpg

 

When I'm done I'll probably make a tutorial thread. I've spent somewhere around 10 hours researching how to do this without burning my house down or completely defying NEC code. Hopefully it won't take the next person so long.

Edited by Sinsemillaplease
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If you're running aluminum wire for your sub you have to have certain breakers that will hold on to it. The aluminum expands and contracts and works its way loose from normal breakers. Also i would get the same brand panel as your main, as long as your main is a GE, Square D, Cutler and Hammer, or a Seimens, just so you can switch the breakers back and forth and such. Good luck with everything.

 

WLP

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More important than whether or not the aluminum expands and contracts is how it reacts with other metals. Whether or not you can use an aluminum wire with a particular breaker will have to do with the metal used for the wire terminal. If you were to say splice copper to aluminum they will corrode quickly and causing arcing and overheating. I've seen several fires caused from this type of splice. Running copper eliminates that problem all together.

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