State's Doctors At Odds Over Medical Marijuana: Compassionate Solution Or A Reckless Leap?

[AKenewell]

Years of debate and fine-tuning in the state legislature over allowing medical marijuana still have not settled all the questions Connecticut doctors have about medical marijuana. Is it, as some contend, a humane solution for patients who can't get relief from other medicines, or a reckless move toward something that hasn't been fully tested scientifically?

 

The Connecticut State Medical Society, which has a membership of about 7,000 practicing and training physicians, opposed the bill.

 

"On one hand, we're asked to be scientific and use evidence-based medicine," said Dr. Michael Krinsky, the medical society's president. "On the other hand, we're being legislated to by people who don't practice medicine, telling us this is fine to do, based on rather flimsy evidence."

 

While it may be true that marijuana could be medically beneficial for some patients, there hasn't been enough research to confirm this, Krinsky said. "The science is not quite there yet."

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The fact that federal regulations do not recognize medical marijuana also causes some concern.

 

"That's a very difficult position to put a physician in," he said.

 

In 2009, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said he would not prosecute physicians or patients acting under state medical marijuana laws, as long as they did so in good faith. The federal government maintained a hands-off approach to state marijuana laws until late last year, when federal agents began cracking down on California dispensaries.

 

"I think there's some anxiety about what the federal government's attitude will be about it," said Dr. Andrew Salner, chief of the department of radiation oncology at Hartford Hospital, who has long been an advocate for medical marijuana.

 

Salner said he doesn't believe federal regulations will be a problem in Connecticut.

 

"Clearly, there's a groundswell that this is the right thing to do for people who don't respond to other medications," he said.

 

The federal actions in California caused Delaware Gov. Jack Markell to end the state's regulated marijuana dispensary program in February, less than a year after the state created it.

 

But the California crackdown hasn't caused any concern in Maine, which has allowed marijuana dispensaries since 2009, said Andrew MacLean, deputy executive vice president at the Maine Medical Association. For one thing, he said, Maine is much smaller than California. Also, he said, Maine has kept much tighter control over the dispensaries and the relationship between medical marijuana practitioners and patients.

 

Since 1999, Maine had allowed doctors to issue certificates for the use of medicinal marijuana, but there was no place for patients to legally obtain it until 2009. Originally, MacLean said, his organization and most doctors in the state opposed medical marijuana. But the move toward regulated dispensaries — plus 10 years of public discussion — changed that.

 

"I would say that, yes, [doctors] were resistant," MacLean said. "We opposed the legislation the first time around, but I think opinions among physicians, as among the general public, have evolved."

 

While conventional medications go through a rigorous approval process from theU.S. Food and Drug Administration, Krinsky said, marijuana hasn't had the same kind of scrutiny. He also wonders how dosages of marijuana would be prescribed.

 

"Does a physician prescribe one toke or two?" he said.

 

As for dosages, Salner said, "I think each person needs to do that by trial and error to see what works for them. Generally speaking, a small amount will work."

 

Salner said he estimates that 1 percent of the patients he sees can benefit from medical marijuana. He has for the last few years occasionally suggested it to patients.

 

"I'll recommend it, and some patients say, 'Oh, yeah, I know where I can get it,'" he said. "Others have said they've already tried it. And other patients say, 'I wouldn't dare, that's illegal and I wouldn't put myself or family at risk by going to someone on the street.'"

 

A law allowing medical marijuana would eliminate that risk, Salner said.

 

"If I tell a patient that they might benefit from medical marijuana for their nausea and pain, I put myself at risk and making that recommendation puts [patients] at risk," he said.

 

Dr. Kelly Johnson-Arbor, a toxicologist at Hartford Hospital, said allowing medical marijuana in the state "is a good idea in principle," but adds that she has several questions about it. For instance, how would pharmacies dispensing marijuana protect themselves against robberies, and how would residents react to a marijuana dispensary in their neighborhood?

 

"I think there are so many details that have to be worked out," she said.

 

As the bill is written, doctors would be allowed to issue a certificate for marijuana to patients diagnosed with cancer, glaucoma, HIV, AIDS, Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis, damage to the nervous tissue of the spinal cord with objective neurological indication of intractable spasticity, epilepsy, cachexia, wasting syndrome,Crohn's disease orpost-traumatic stress disorder. Pharmacists licensed by the state would dispense the marijuana.

 

If Gov.Dannel P. Malloysigns the bill, as expected, officials from the state Department of Consumer Protection will devise details about how dispensaries would be run and regulated. Claudette Carveth, spokeswoman for the department, said those details would be available by summer, if the bill is signed. The law would take effect Oct. 1.

 

Dr. Angela Kueck, a gynecologic oncologist at the University of Connecticut Health Center, said she practiced medicine in Michigan shortly after that state passed its own medical marijuana law.

 

"Among a lot of the physicians who were not in support of it, there was a fear of abuse," she said, adding that these concerns were unfounded. "Things were running pretty smoothly. There were not a lot of signs of abuse or misuse."

 

Kueck said opinions may be different in other fields of medicine, but among oncologists she has spoken to, most are overwhelmingly in favor of allowing medical marijuana. And with more education about the medical use of marijuana, Kueck said, she expects more doctors to be in favor of it.

 

http://www.courant.c...0,4825322.story

[Dr. Bob]

Sound familiar?

 

Dr. Bob

[HEMP4LIFE]

While it may be true that marijuana could be medically beneficial for some patients, there hasn't been enough research to confirm this, Krinsky said. "The science is not quite there yet."

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OK do you buy it

no lets re phrase his own words

 

while it may be true that marijuana is medically benefical to most all patients, there hasn'tbeen enough money to confirm this,

the science has not quite been allowed to research it yet due to big goverment and big pharmaicia yet.

and we may never be able to conduct the proper research until they figure out how to make money and control this useful medacine.

 

then lets move on to paul harveys rest of the story

 

The fact that federal regulations do not recognize medical marijuana also causes some concern.

 

"That's a very difficult position to put a physician in," he said.

 

LETS READ BETWEEN THE LINES

 

re pharse again

 

the fact that federal regulations have not provided a way to patten the use of a plant for medical purposes has stopped the federal reccoginition of medical marijuana.

 

 

 

"That's a very difficult position to put a physician in," he said.

 

in lieu of the OATH THE DOCTOR TOOK TO PROVIDE THE CARE NEEDED TO SICK PATIENTS

NEVER EVEN MENTIONED FEDERAL LAW BUT ONLY SPOKE TO THE OBLIGATION TO A PAITENTS WELL BEING

 

dr bob

please tell us the oath you took to your profession

did it talk about the law

did it swear to provide best care possible

in your professionl opnion

can you hold up the oath of your office knowing what you know today without mmj

or is it too risky to endanger your pratice and sick patients well being for the laws of this great country who has the best intrest of its citizens in mind.

[Croppled1]

Thats about the truth of it . They coulldn't just let patients grow and use in a responsable manner to help control symptoms of injury and disease not solveable in our times . As far as the kids we all have to learn not to walk into the street infront of a car . There is a balance . Nothing in excess and as a rule you don't use drugs without medical need . Though I understand how responsable people could advocate for recreational use of this relatively benign substance .; The world didnt' fall apart according to the written historical record going back over 5000 years before 37 . Being , included involved and active in ones community pretty much always controlled substance abuse by todays definition , current prohibition policies litterly encourge people to go underground and develop real problems .

 

I had a good dose of Joel Olsteen this morning , he always helps me find a good frame of mind when its' to hard to get out or perhaps illegal if internal possession isn't protected for patients and from what I hear it isn't . Time for a walk , then some meds both allopathic and naturopathic . Super important to be drinking lots of fluids that last few days ( water ) .

 

As a severe chronic pain patient the Govermenet regulations have done little to help and littelry created a nitemare of extra suffering and a inability to obtain what is required for proper care which includes periods of weaning and narcotic rotations . Without patient input being given the heaviest weighting no medical care will ever be successful and mental pain from treatment will continously be out of control causing patients to pull back from care . .

[HEMP4LIFE]

While it may be true that marijuana could be medically beneficial for some patients, there hasn't been enough research to confirm this, Krinsky said. "The science is not quite there yet."

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OK do you buy it

no lets re phrase his own words

 

while it may be true that marijuana is medically benefical to most all patients, there hasn'tbeen enough money to confirm this,

the science has not quite been allowed to research it yet due to big goverment and big pharmaicia yet.

and we may never be able to conduct the proper research until they figure out how to make money and control this useful medacine.

 

then lets move on to paul harveys rest of the story

 

The fact that federal regulations do not recognize medical marijuana also causes some concern.

 

"That's a very difficult position to put a physician in," he said.

 

LETS READ BETWEEN THE LINES

 

re pharse again

 

the fact that federal regulations have not provided a way to patten the use of a plant for medical purposes has stopped the federal reccoginition of medical marijuana.

 

 

 

"That's a very difficult position to put a physician in," he said.

 

in lieu of the OATH THE DOCTOR TOOK TO PROVIDE THE CARE NEEDED TO SICK PATIENTS

NEVER EVEN MENTIONED FEDERAL LAW BUT ONLY SPOKE TO THE OBLIGATION TO A PAITENTS WELL BEING

 

dr bob

please tell us the oath you took to your profession

did it talk about the law

did it swear to provide best care possible

in your professionl opnion

can you hold up the oath of your office knowing what you know today without mmj

or is it too risky to endanger your pratice and sick patients well being for the laws of this great country who has the best intrest of its citizens in mind.

 

OK now were sitting at the board of directors table a closed session would look something like this

 

dr.xyz

we cant let a bunch of hippies run around this country and take care of themselves with this pot thing.

we just ramped up several billoins of dollars in our medical infastructure we cant just sit back and let them self medicate grow their own cures and cut us out of the deal.

we want them sick

we need them sick

we must put a stop to this hippie crap and get on with business as stated.

now it is up to all of you to stop this crime get them back into our health system and lets make some money

[Dr. Bob]

Well two questions to answer. First the lack of studies. There are a crap load of them, and funding for additional ones is running into problems. There are many sites on the net to find them. BUT we are starting a new, non-commercial site to specifically address ignorance of the science of medical cannabis called www.justsayKNOW.org. It should be up and running in a few weeks, to provide PRIMARY SOURCE data to doctors, lawyers, government officials, patients, and the general public. Journal articles, case decisions, laws, pending bills will be presented from the source to be used as a research tool leading to the truth.

 

Second, about my oath- Do no harm, that includes not setting patients up to sit in jail.

 

The focus of my practice this year is reducing the need for it by educating primary care doctors, and the general public. Wish me luck.

 

Dr. Bob

[Kevin]

Cannabis cures but I don't know what 'marijuana' does. I don't use it.

 

The 'm' word reeks with decades of hatred, racism, greed, lies, yellow journalism, back room politics, and as the Germans did with the word 'swastika', the 'm' word should be removed from the English language.

 

Who would call their vintage wine or premium single malt by the name 'booze' or 'rotgut' as it's an insult to a fine liquor. The 'm' word is in the same way degrading to that sacred healing cannabis plant and its use perpetuates the decades of bad juju associatred with it. But what do I know.

 

 

 

Peace.

[Fat Freddy]

One sure way to resolve this is to have independent studies without government or big pharm interference or influence.

The results must meet scientific guidelines and be reproducible in a lab setting. Then all of this useless debate stops.

[Croppled1]

Well two questions to answer. First the lack of studies. There are a crap load of them, and funding for additional ones is running into problems. There are many sites on the net to find them. BUT we are starting a new, non-commercial site to specifically address ignorance of the science of medical cannabis called www.justsayKNOW.org. It should be up and running in a few weeks, to provide PRIMARY SOURCE data to doctors, lawyers, government officials, patients, and the general public. Journal articles, case decisions, laws, pending bills will be presented from the source to be used as a research tool leading to the truth.

 

Second, about my oath- Do no harm, that includes not setting patients up to sit in jail.

 

The focus of my practice this year is reducing the need for it by educating primary care doctors, and the general public. Wish me luck.

 

Dr. Bob

 

I will wish you luck Bob and I hope your wishing Joe luck over in Jackson with the Farmers Market a distribution model with many advantages and one which is the least likely to involve high priced cannabis whose revenue in a non profit environment is diverted and abused . Many of the participants who are being tolerated by local law enforcement there would be more likely to be outside the law without the outlet for their wares . The Farmers Market is more within the Federal Guidelines then any dispensary with middlemen ever will be . From caregiver direct to patient without any conspiracy to deliver amounts in excess of the Michigan program limits by anyone . Though I am sure Joe worries for himself and whoever owns the building due to the forfeiture abuses that go on in the Country currently .

 

At the Hospital this week one of my Doctors of 15 years offered for the first time to sign my recommendation . They had never offerred before and the wording of what it consisted of was a little confusing but it was a change and they offered . Last year and every year before they refused though they didn't remember it that way - it's ok they were afriad and I am a pain patient that makes people suspicious even with the swelling still being visable from a injury that is almost 16 years old . I myself would never believe suffering as high as is occuring was possible in anyone for so long and so many suffer the same agonizing pain daily - if I wasn't living with the pain . It is so sad cannabis is so safe , eases pain for many yet is not given credit for it's medical uses and has been criminalized due to predjudice against groups often identified with it .

 

When you say you owe it to your patients to keep them out of jail sadly just being on the program puts one at risk and we often discuss that if you use medables ( inert ingrediants ) , or harvest a whole plant because it is at the proper ripeness you will most often have weight issues . It also is ridiculous as tight as supply is to be throwing cannabis away - law enforcement should be reasonable and in most cases they are .

 

I guess right now anyone selling anywhere outside a direct patient recorded relationship is suspect though the Farmers Markets with local police approval ( tolerance in principle ) would be the next best alternative for those willing to accept the risk . Those with positive net worths , who couldn't defend themselves due to illness in court or take incarceration really could be blindsided if AG Schuette went after them . I don't think he will they are good sources of intelligence for keeping tabs on people who are more interested in profiting then helping others .Yet , they allow those who want to help to do so and keep everything safe and out in the open not in alleys or forcing patients or caregivers to let people they dont' know into their homes or communities .Medical use is conducted in a safe manner as it should be . Again good luck with your goal of putting yourself out of business when it comes to being a recommendation only Doctor who travels the State to fill a void in access to the program for patients . Patients who along with their choice of treatment are cut off from normal treatment under law .

[Dr. Bob]

What part of the state is your hospital located?

 

Dr. Bob

[Croppled1]

Superior Township just outside Ann Arbor . This is where I was also taken into emergency after being cold turkeyed by a Doctor who said withdrawls wouldn't be dangerous or severe off of 10 mg oxycontin tablets . Obviously I have some predisposition to severe withdrawls and need a elevated level of care as do many other patients on dependent medications legally . People like Mr Hoffman who died in Dayton Ohio by his own hand . My experiences have instilled a distain for how anyone legal or not is treated in the State who suffers from addiction or dependency . I like many other patients wish nobody ever had to be exposed to dependent medications especailly layers of them often utilized in treatment . I dont question their need just patient support when tolerance and thus effectiveness change or any anxiety is felt because of their use .

[Dr. Bob]

Reason I asked is that I had spoken to a few doctor groups and I was wondering if it had any effect. I agree that it is wrong to cold turkey patients without a taper.

 

I guess you will have to make up your own mind about me.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, not going to get into a debate about Joe or the FM, I've made my position clear. Great idea a FM is but not currently supported by the Act. I support self growing patients or caregiver to THEIR patient (not any patient, that isn't covered by the Act and involves risk) transfers only at this time. That may change when other legal methods become available, if they ever do. Until then, I advise people to stay with what is clearly legal under the Act. We've had enough people go to jail and taken enough bad publicity.

[Dr. Bob]

Many of the participants (FM) who are being tolerated by local law enforcement there would be more likely to be outside the law without the outlet for their wares .

 

I've discussed this 'I'm above the law, let me do this or I will just break the law' mentality. You will destroy the act for the rest of the patients if it continues. I can't believe folks try and spoon feed that garbage to folks. Schuette loves it. You just don't get it. 'Tolerated' , do the police have to 'tolerate' legal activity? You know it isn't legal. Yet if it isn't there, folks will just conduct criminal activity?

 

It is just this sort of abuse of the Act the anti's love to point out. Are you actually pretending to speak for the communtiy? Is this how you want us seen? OK I'll spell it out for you....

 

Republicans and Democrates in Lansing cannot agree what time to break for lunch, yet they came together and voted 75% to 98% in favor of the 4 bills amending the MMMA or related laws. WHY? WHY DID THEY COME TOGETHER???????? What united them against us, rather than brought them to our side to support our right to use 'God's Plant'.

 

Many of the participants (FM) who are being tolerated by local law enforcement there would be more likely to be outside the law without the outlet for their wares .

 

Read it again and see if you have a CLUE as to what brought them out against us.

 

Dr. Bob

[Croppled1]

Many of the participants (FM) who are being tolerated by local law enforcement there would be more likely to be outside the law without the outlet for their wares .

 

I've discussed this 'I'm above the law, let me do this or I will just break the law' mentality. You will destroy the act for the rest of the patients if it continues. I can't believe folks try and spoon feed that garbage to folks. Schuette loves it. You just don't get it. 'Tolerated' , do the police have to 'tolerate' legal activity? You know it isn't legal. Yet if it isn't there, folks will just conduct criminal activity?

 

It is just this sort of abuse of the Act the anti's love to point out. Are you actually pretending to speak for the communtiy? Is this how you want us seen? OK I'll spell it out for you....

 

Republicans and Democrates in Lansing cannot agree what time to break for lunch, yet they came together and voted 75% to 98% in favor of the 4 bills amending the MMMA or related laws. WHY? WHY DID THEY COME TOGETHER???????? What united them against us, rather than brought them to our side to support our right to use 'God's Plant'.

 

Many of the participants (FM) who are being tolerated by local law enforcement there would be more likely to be outside the law without the outlet for their wares .

 

Read it again and see if you have a CLUE as to what brought them out against us.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Your no better then Schuette Bob there has to be a legal way to distribute a medical supply period . One that covers everyone in a safe manner and provides for immeadiate needs . You force one to be without what is needed or go to illegal dealors in a unsafe environment . Further you yourself said it is a grey area in one post before . Until every aspect of medical use is coverred by a legal mechanism we have no medical use Act that is viable in the State ..The City of Jackson has declared their support of the Farmers Market as the standard for their community . Same with Ann Arbor and Flint for dispensaries and only prohibitionists stand between them and legality .We know they control the House , Senate and Judiciary Branch most important the Courts of Appeal and Supreme Court . You should be ashamed of yourself Bob supporting everyone to hide to protect your law and be without what is needed unable to access supply and don't give me that crap about get a caregiver patients can't afford these for profit caregivers and people are scared to meet strangers one on one when their sick in their homes or in libraries with cameras running . Some just need occassional or emergency help .But every patient needs more then one source of affordable supply and being legal black market prices should not exist it is the argueing that is creating the support for them .

 

To my knowledge there are only 3 Farmers Markets in the State and it is a dispensary that will settle the caregiver to patient transfer question . Sadly our legislature would let patients suffer before they create a workable set of law or rules for patients that cover all medical use in a reasonable manner like any other over the counter herbal treatment . They are the most uneducated and discriminatory sub group on practical in practice medical cannabis in the State against accomplishing anything workable to support the voters intent . IF they wanted to do that at the State level we would have a rulebook that coverred how to conduct all necessary activities in a legal manner already .Have a good night truly I am too sick to argue First weedbay then the bumper sticker zero tolerance driving protest . You would think most here would understand where you really are on the issues . You can sign up all the patients you want but if they can't access legal supply what do they have ? And blaming anyone in the cannabis community is so wrong the truth is Bill Schuette orgainized his forces against the ACt using unlimited State money and there is a lot of State and Federal substance abuse money also deployed . You have two generations of zero tolerance educated individuals to battle through also who aren't sick . Yet .

 

I do agree with you we do not need anymore people being arrested that do not understand what their getting into or are naive about it . We need to educate more in that regard . It is amazing how well the FM worked when Joe was around to keep prices reasonable . He made mistakes but he was doing allot of good too . We all are trying to be good Citizens and be legal under a very difficult framework .

 

I cannot see where the bills passed the Senate today can someone please post so we can all read the final wording . Thank you .

[Dr. Bob]

Again, your argument goes back to the what 'should' be card. Mine is based on what 'is'. We do have a distribution system, it is called self growing patients or if that is not desired, the caregiver system. 1 patient 12 plants. 1 caregiver 5 patients. That is what is, not necessarily what should be.

 

I have said this before, and will restate. The FM concept is a good one, it is simply NOT covered under the Act. I would prefer that farmers markets and even dispensaries be available in the supply chain, they are clearly needed, so long as they are an addition to rather than a replacement for self growing patients and the caregiver system (recall the language in AZ that says you can grow so long as there isn't a dispensary within 25 miles- I don't want to see something like that).

 

But the problem is folks are missing the point. What I really object to is all this 'justification' and 'loose interpretation' that is PERCEIVED by the public as 'cowboys abusing they system'. 47 'dispensaries' in Lansing- how many looked like a pharmacy rather than a warehouse or a head shop? What do you expect the public to see them as? The other REALLY troubling aspect of your arguement is the overall attitude of 'we are getting away with it' in certain locations and if we don't let them we are 'forcing them' to be criminals on the black market.

 

Is anyone 'forcing' you to grow 'overages' to sell outside the Act? I don't think so. If you have 'overages', you have a compassionate and legal argument to simply 'give' them, free of charge, to a needy patient. Isn't that compassion, neighbor helping neighbor? Or are you insistant on selling those overages for money to those same sick people? Which one would the public and juries understand and agree with? Is your argument that you should be able to farm marijuana commercially whether the Act allows it or not, or you do it anyhow and be 'forced' to be a criminal?

 

Public support for marijuana has eroded as a direct result of your argument. That is shown by the lack luster response to the signature drive for legalization, and the unification of the legislature against us. Your friend Joe and his farmers market had a hand in it. So did 200+ plant grows trying to claim 'medical' status. So did my skypes (more so because I didn't do a good job explaining them than because they are wrong), the mills selling signatures, the compassion club leaders shouting 'acquit ALL marijuana cases and we don't support Dr. Bob', and for that matter, lawyers bringing unsympathetic cases to the wrong courts (can't argue that it is their job to defend their clients- but for example Koon was driving more than 20 over the speed limit, had alcohol and marijuana in his system, and really wasn't the poster child for the team).

 

I understand frustration. I understand pain and illness. I don't understand why we, as a community, don't learn lessons from missteps and defeats and turn them to our advantage with a little political skill and understanding of perception. We need to work on our PR, and the argument that something is 'tolerated' in isolated locations therefore we should do it everywhere, and by extention it is 'legally compliant' and if it wasn't there we would be 'forced' to simply break the law and be criminals to sell our overages just isn't valid.

 

Again, a cop doesn't 'tolerate' me driving 35 in a 35 zone. He may 'tolerate' me doing 42 in a 35, but I am breaking the law and he can stop 'tolerating' me ANY TIME HE WANTS. Medical marijuana is 'low hanging fruit' to law enforcement- an easy case to convict (though we may now have a right to the section 8 defense if the bills pass). The problem is we not only are low hanging fruit, we are doing our best to be unsympathetic to the general public by these types of attitudes. We are making an easy job for the cops and prosecutors even easier.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, did you ACTUALLY compare me to Bill Schuette? I guess all the opposition I gave him in the Saginaw News and elsewhere counts for nothing to you, or you didn't even bother to research it. Or perhaps you were part of the crowd here that was too busy trying to ban and defame me to notice the work I was doing on behalf of the community and the rights of medical marijuana patients.

[Croppled1]

The people involved in the Farmers Markets believe their legal and their reasons were posted on this site . Mr Schuette has picked the Kalamazoo dispensary as his test case of caregiver to patient transfers . It has been stated as such in the press .

 

Just so everyone is clear it also been stated that non remunerated transfers may not be legal they haven't ruled on that either as stated on this site Someone needs to create a reference manual explaining the truth of where things stand inspite of them changing almost monthly . People must choose what risk their willing to take for their beliefs and situation .

 

Though it may be unitentional ( I doubt it ) I notice everytime you do not agree with a person you always threaten them by inferring from your imaginination they did something illegal like you have supreme knowledge . This is not proper . Please consider your words carefully and remember your dealing with patients and patients who are in a severe disadavantage often having periods of severe physical and mental impairment . All of us here are trying to work within a political environment that truly doesn't care about our specific needs for protections and what is fair .

 

Your statements seem to infer I have made transfers to a FM , dispensary or sought to be involved for financial gain which is untrue . I am a patient who believes for this activity to truely be legal there must be a accepted way for all steps of medical use to be accessed by any qualified participant through more then one source in a safe area known and supported by law enforcement .

[Dr. Bob]

The court case on transfers without compensation is from Barry County and has been discussed on this site. To break it down, transfer is covered under the MMMA, transfer plus compensation has been ruled sale and is not covered by the MMMA. In the Barry County case, transfer involving less than 2.5 oz between two patients without compensation was held, with reservations by the court, to be allowed under the Act and the criminal case was dismissed. That was a local court ruling, it is not the rule of law, but it is helpful to defend a patient. I've clearly stated if you are going to transfer, do it within the caregiver to designated patient framework. The example used was one that had a compassionate and legal basis, and it was clearly stated it was to make a point about dealing with 'overages' vs selling them, which is clearly illegal. It was never presented as a recommendation, merely as a way of having some grounds to stand on if it was questioned to avoid the stigma of being a 'dealer' in front of a jury.

 

As for pulling from my imagination, if that is what you call my quoting statements and explaining them I suppose you are right. I don't pretend to know what is in anyone's mind, but making a logical inference based on what they are stating is clearly proper. I have no idea if you are involved in the farmers market and don't really care. We all decide on what risk we are willing to assume, and attempt to justify our positions based on our understanding of things. Some times that understanding is flawed, as I have pointed out. As for your actions, if you believe what I said applied to your situation, so be it. I was speaking in general terms about a thought process, not directing my remarks to you. The thought process directly related to your quote about something being tolerated and if it wasn't folks would be 'forced' to be criminals. No one is forcing anyone to be a criminal, stay within the guidelines of the Act. 1 patient, 12 plants. 1 caregiver, 5 patients. That is clearly defined.

 

I feel I've made my position clear, you have made yours clear, and it is up to the folks reading this thread to decide what they believe.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

OK now were sitting at the board of directors table a closed session would look something like this

 

dr.xyz

we cant let a bunch of hippies run around this country and take care of themselves with this pot thing.

we just ramped up several billoins of dollars in our medical infastructure we cant just sit back and let them self medicate grow their own cures and cut us out of the deal.

we want them sick

we need them sick

we must put a stop to this hippie crap and get on with business as stated.

now it is up to all of you to stop this crime get them back into our health system and lets make some money

 

Yeah, we doctors are all conspiring to keep people sick.

 

I think about all the years I spent in school, the expense, the parts of my life put on hold. The countless hours at the bedside of sick patients, the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of care I gave patients that couldn't afford it. I once spent 18 hours at the beside of a corpse, keeping it 'alive' until the harvest team arrived from Columbia so that 5 or 6 people could get kidneys, corneas, and a heart. The patients I saved, and the ones that died despite everything I did. I still see Garrett at night. He was 9 and couldn't swim. I was a 19 year old EMT.

 

And despite all that, and the countless other stories any doctor can relate to you about what they went through, there is this conspiracy theory that we are uncaring, out to get patients, and just in it for the money.

 

Well tell ya what, when you are a broken man, in a broken car, overturned on the side of some highway in the UP and I roll up, I'll be there to help you. I'll be there for your parents, your spouse, your kids. And I'll be there for this community. Because I believe in things and the goodness of people. I've devoted my life to serving them. That is what a doctor does.

 

Bob- I'll leave off the DR to avoid offending you.

[CaveatLector]

The doctors are out there to keep you sick so they can make money.

The lawyers are out there to sue everyone so they can make money.

The waiters spit in your food when they're angry, when they know you won't tip them big so they can make money.

The carpenters do shoddy work because that's the fastest way to complete a project and make money.

The teachers are not teahcing because it requires too much work, so our kids are dumb.

The ditch diggers' ditches are, on average, 2.37 feet more shallow than they were 75 years ago because they're all so lazy now.

The cops are out to steal our rights.

The legislators are out to help big business.

 

Everyone is out to get you! Stay indoors with a HEPA filter, a Brita filter, and a hydroponic garden. Do everything by mail. Get one of those army surplus decontamination boxes. Disconnect the tv, radio, and cell phone. Line the walls with lead. Wear a tinfoil hat.

 

Oh to be back in the roaring 20s when marijuana was legal, big pharma didn't exist like today, everyone was your friend, doctors didn't conspire to hold us down, and life expectancy was in the low to mid fifties.

 

Are we safe yet? I guess not until we all go to med school so we can avoid those conspiring doctors. Life would be so much better if those doctors would stop holding us down.

[Croppled1]

Dr Bob your arguement against FM's is legality ? I wish you could address the claim by Joe that they were legal and where his thought process is flawed . When we discus legalities as a reason to abort having proper protection for patients and rules for all aspects of this as legal activity how is it ok for you with your concience to recommend cannabis when clearly it is in violation of Federal Law putting patients at risk ? Do you believe in State and Local community rights ? I just can't bring your logic back to find protection for everyone or guidance . Sadly there is no way to be protected 100% and participate currently because this is a Citizens Constitutional Ammendment with discriminatory resistance to the change . There are shades of grey depending on where you live and how " reasonable " or " tolerant " your community is towards cannabis because of opposition to the law which also exists in the Courts . Patients this helps can't just give up or pretend it isn't so ether .

 

We both agree clear rules covering all aspects of medical use need to be understood by people in Government and participants as well as risk where they do not . As a patient i am hanging on by a thread and with all your doing I imagine you are too . I hope you have a wonderful holiday and we find a way to have everyone 100% protected eventually . We agree on that .

 

I really like you for what your trying to do we are both in a bad spot . The AG has stated they will not rest until this law is overturned instead of helping to enact it in a workable fashion . Can we agree on that and how it is hurting everyone in the State ?

[CaveatLector]

Dr Bob your arguement against FM's is legality ? I wish you could address the claim by Joe that they were legal and where his thought process is flawed . When we discus legalities as a reason to abort having proper protection for patients and rules for all aspects of this as legal activity how is it ok for you with your concience to recommend cannabis when clearly it is in violation of Federal Law putting patients at risk ? Do you believe in State and Local community rights ? I just can't bring your logic back to find protection for everyone or guidance . Sadly there is no way to be protected 100% and participate currently because this is a Citizens Constitutional Ammendment with discriminatory resistance to the change . There are shades of grey depending on where you live and how " reasonable " or " tolerant " your community is towards cannabis because of opposition to the law which also exists in the Courts . Patients this helps can't just give up or pretend it isn't so ether .

 

We both agree clear rules covering all aspects of medical use need to be understood by people in Government and participants as well as risk where they do not . As a patient i am hanging on by a thread and with all your doing I imagine you are too . I hope you have a wonderful holiday and we find a way to have everyone 100% protected eventually . We agree on that .

 

I really like you for what your trying to do we are both in a bad spot . The AG has stated they will not rest until this law is overturned instead of helping to enact it in a workable fashion . Can we agree on that and how it is hurting everyone in the State ?

That is kind of the point and I guess you are missing it huh? Patients are advised that it is against federal law to use so they do so fully informed of the possible consequences. They assume the risk.

 

That farmers' market was run and marketed, for so long, as being "legally compliant." In other words patients weren't informed of the possible risks. Being told by the mmma admin that it was "legally compliant" was seen, by many, as a legal way to obtain marijuana. I think those opposed to that would have displayed much less opposition had the owner of the market been forthright and explained that this "legally compliant" conclusion was based on shakey interpretations of the law. Rather than do that the owner chose to line his pockets. Sound like someone else you are currently complaining about? Oh yeah, big pharma...

[Dr. Bob]

Dr Bob your arguement against FM's is legality ? I wish you could address the claim by Joe that they were legal and where his thought process is flawed . When we discus legalities as a reason to abort having proper protection for patients and rules for all aspects of this as legal activity how is it ok for you with your concience to recommend cannabis when clearly it is in violation of Federal Law putting patients at risk ? Do you believe in State and Local community rights ? I just can't bring your logic back to find protection for everyone or guidance . Sadly there is no way to be protected 100% and participate currently because this is a Citizens Constitutional Ammendment with discriminatory resistance to the change . There are shades of grey depending on where you live and how " reasonable " or " tolerant " your community is towards cannabis because of opposition to the law which also exists in the Courts . Patients this helps can't just give up or pretend it isn't so ether .

 

We both agree clear rules covering all aspects of medical use need to be understood by people in Government and participants as well as risk where they do not . As a patient i am hanging on by a thread and with all your doing I imagine you are too . I hope you have a wonderful holiday and we find a way to have everyone 100% protected eventually . We agree on that .

 

I really like you for what your trying to do we are both in a bad spot . The AG has stated they will not rest until this law is overturned instead of helping to enact it in a workable fashion . Can we agree on that and how it is hurting everyone in the State ?

 

I am not going to argue with Joe, no point in it. Mom warned me about arguing with folks like that.

 

My position is clear.

 

Patient safety first, follow the Act, 1 patient 12 plants, 1 caregiver 5 patients.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

As for the rest of your post, you are attempting to restart a debate that has already been held in the hopes the outcome will be different. The answers to your questions are clearly listed, both in this thread and others, and I am not going to take the time to review them again. Enough is enough.

 

In the end, do what you wish. But I am not going to try and justify my recommendations other than to say the feds have clearly indicated that they are not interested in prosecuting patients following their state's medical marijuana law, federal law is being debated and the tide is clearly turning in our favor (17 states and counting with federal court cases being argued), and the US Supreme Court has made it clear the recommendation of medical marijuana is a freedom of speech issue.

 

The question is not my attitude or my certifications, it is the attitude shown by you and others that you don't feel bound by the Act and can do what you want with cannabis. Bringing other issues in does not change what the question is, and it has nothing to do with federal law or certifications. It has to do with following the Act and not being a cowboy.

 

Dr. Bob

[Croppled1]

"The question is not my attitude or my certifications, it is the attitude shown by you and others that you don't feel bound by the Act and can do what you want with cannabis."

 

Please explain where I have ever broken the act ? Or I am some cowboy that thinks they can do whatever they want . I am terrified and isolated in my home praying I can keep a non interupted supply while obeying section 4 amazed that a section 8 defense is not recognized and jury trials have all been overturned by the COA 16-0 . I am amazed a Doctor is discussing and supporting positions that will end up hurting patients by reducing supply , as well as phase out models of distribution supported currently by local communities that desire them . Some who have had pre act existing medical ordinances .I am not giving false hopes of monoploy regulated profits to patient caregivers denied any employment rights without regard to how patients can afford it nor proper tax treatment under law . I didn't try to promote weedbay , a bumper sticker zero tolerance protest for patients that still drive inspite of the COA's Koons decision nor turn course and say medical cannabis patients do not have the same rights to the benefits of telamedicine or skype that others do . Believe me I have absolutely the same respect for you as you have given me and the real needs of patients to be covered legaly in all aspects of medical use necessary to conduct this as a legal activity under State Law .

 

I can't do anymore to be legal then I have and quite frankly it is ridiculous because of individuals that assume everyone is doing something wrong . I am starting to have about the same respect for this program as Schuette . This sure isn't what I voted for . First and formost was patient saftey and access to the same level if not improved care that existed before .

[Dr. Bob]

So now I am responsible for Walmart Joe and the loss of telemedicine? And you don't like justsayknow.org. And toss a little personal attack in as well? OK.

 

I withdrew the concept of weedbay when it turned out to be a bad idea. I think there is a lesson for you. At least I was trying to find a solution to a problem.

 

Now I see where your are coming from.

 

Dr. Bob