Patients And Demands

[tooldini]

LOL just don't wanna say free cause then it would be expected and not respected they would not enjoy the free so much then

[kathys]

Confused. What do you mean you are growing one plant per month for your patients??? Aren't you allowed to grow 12 plants per patient???

 

Also, it is common to negotiate lower package prices for those who are on SSDI, SSI, military veterans and such. This is not called "free medicine". CG can negotiate with their patients. I also have a hard time justifying the current so called "market rates". Since all CG have different grow systems, how the hec can everyone have the same budget and thus the same price for their medicine? Prices for medicine are based on a budget per law.

 

Does the law specify how much you charge for grower fees? I am reaching back in the recesses of my mind and I thought it was a "nominal" fee. What exact guidance does the law give you for charging for your services?

 

Thanks for your input! Just trying to sort this all out in my mind.

Edited August 12, 2012 by kathys

[Restorium2]

What exact guidance does the law give you for charging for your services?

 

I asked a very good attorney this question back in '09.. His answer was that I better be able to justify, to a judge, that the price reflected growing supply cost, utility costs, and reasonable labor costs. Lets say you are around $200 an ounce. At that price it's very easy to come up with a believable set of figures to show if challenged. If you are charging twice that it might be a little harder to explain. So the real line in the sand is what you can explain on paper. That's what the excellent attorney said. It boils down to that it's up to the grower to decide what they want to charge, within reason. The person that should be worried is the one who didn't grow it and is selling it. They have no legal legs to stand on. You can't do that legally.

[Highlander]

The law allows for a CG to be "compensated for cost."

 

According to Webster, "cost" means,

 

"the outlay or expenditure (as of effort or sacrifice) made to achieve an object"

 

When a CG is compensated for his cost to provide meds, his effort and sacrifice are relevant. So if he is a Dr., then his sacrifice is whatever time he could have spent Doctoring. If he is a mechanic, then his cost includes the time sacrificed that could have been spent fixing cars - for $20 to $50 per hour. And maybe if he is only employable as a cashier, then his time sacrificed is worth $8 per hour.

 

That is why cost is all over the map.

[kathys]

What exact guidance does the law give you for charging for your services?

 

I asked a very good attorney this question back in '09.. His answer was that I better be able to justify, to a judge, that the price reflected growing supply cost, utility costs, and reasonable labor costs. Lets say you are around $200 an ounce. At that price it's very easy to come up with a believable set of figures to show if challenged. If you are charging twice that it might be a little harder to explain. So the real line in the sand is what you can explain on paper. That's what the excellent attorney said. It boils down to that it's up to the grower to decide what they want to charge, within reason. The person that should be worried is the one who didn't grow it and is selling it. They have no legal legs to stand on. You can't do that legally.

 

What caused you to interject the statement that "the person who should be worried is the one who didn't grow and is selling it" I mean, I feel offended, like I am some kind of idiot? Who the hell needs to be told THAT is illegal, if you don't know that basic fact than you have no business in the business.

[Restorium2]

What caused you to interject the statement that "the person who should be worried is the one who didn't grow and is selling it" I mean, I feel offended, like I am some kind of idiot? Who the hell needs to be told THAT is illegal, if you don't know that basic fact than you have no business in the business.

I was quoting the attorney. He interjected that too. Why would you feel offended? And for your information, you would be surprised what some people feel is legal. I don't feel offended that you decided that I was giving worthless advice that everyone knows. Chillax. I was just answering your question. You're welcome.

[SFC]

She sure is touchy. But still avoiding answering any direct questions.

[imiubu]

I do not know anything about price fixing. I only have the experience w/ my only caregiver, that I mentioned prior in this thread.

 

My cg has a 'day' job, same one as always. We were friends prior to our agreement/ s as cg/pt. I am privy to his life, his

 

wife and i had known each other for years.

 

He went from renting his brothers house for 600$ per month, to in less than 2 yrs of being my cg, being able to

 

purchase a lovely home on a lake for the tidy sum of 250k.

 

There are 2 sides to this 'coin' ... actually, this is a mulit faceted subject, imho.

[Highlander]

I do not know anything about price fixing. I only have the experience w/ my only caregiver, that I mentioned prior in this thread.

 

My cg has a 'day' job, same one as always. We were friends prior to our agreement/ s as cg/pt. I am privy to his life, his

 

wife and i had known each other for years.

 

He went from renting his brothers house for 600$ per month, to in less than 2 yrs of being my cg, being able to

 

purchase a lovely home on a lake for the tidy sum of 250k.

 

There are 2 sides to this 'coin' ... actually, this is a mulit faceted subject, imho.

 

Well unless he paid cash for he place, they he had to get financing, which would mean that he and his wife would have had to show an income sufficient to qualify for a mortgage on a $250,000 house anyway, so it would be hard to conclude that caregiving pays for such a home.

[imiubu]

Well unless he paid cash for he place, they he had to get financing, which would mean that he and his wife would have had to show an income sufficient to qualify for a mortgage on a $250,000 house anyway, so it would be hard to conclude that caregiving pays for such a home.

 

True and, i should have elaborated more.

Would that hold the same if you were purchasing from a family member (mother) ?

 

 

I have never disputed that cgs should get compensated, and that is an agreement between cg/ pt.

 

I find it ironic in my case as during a conversation on this subject, I had said that as long as

my cg doesn't end up buying a house for 250k , then I'm good.

[SFC]

I cannot help but feel offended that the minute someone does something responsible and clearly betters their situation people that are supposed to be their friends turn on them. I highly doubt you CG bought a 250G house strictly from caregiving. It may well take a dent out of his payment but seriously, this is beyond reality.

[solabeirtan]

What exact guidance does the law give you for charging for your services?

 

I asked a very good attorney this question back in '09.. His answer was that I better be able to justify, to a judge, that the price reflected growing supply cost, utility costs, and reasonable labor costs. Lets say you are around $200 an ounce. At that price it's very easy to come up with a believable set of figures to show if challenged. If you are charging twice that it might be a little harder to explain. So the real line in the sand is what you can explain on paper. That's what the excellent attorney said. It boils down to that it's up to the grower to decide what they want to charge, within reason. The person that should be worried is the one who didn't grow it and is selling it. They have no legal legs to stand on. You can't do that legally.

 

Just to clarify things, we are allowed to "aquire" product wherever we can find it, legally. However as your attorney correctly pointed out the guy selling it is not technically legal, however as soon as the transaction is complete and provided he is clean, then, everyone is kosher.

 

Last I heard that was the deal.

 

I cannot help but feel offended that the minute someone does something responsible and clearly betters their situation people that are supposed to be their friends turn on them. I highly doubt you CG bought a 250G house strictly from caregiving. It may well take a dent out of his payment but seriously, this is beyond reality.

 

I think you are too easily offended my friend. The events are purely circumstantial, yet you assume that he "acted responsibly" and go so far as to say he "clearly betters himself ". How this event affects his life most likely will not be known for some time. Even if he cashed the house out, was it a sound investment? If not what kinda mortgage terms did he get? If 30yrs he will pay back over $500,000. Will the property be worth it then in 2042 ? Even when you pay it off then, will you be able to pay the property taxes on it? If not say bye bye to your biggest investment of your lifetime after not paying them for 2yrs.

Edited August 13, 2012 by solabeirtan

[imiubu]

I cannot help but feel offended that the minute someone does something responsible and clearly betters their situation people that are supposed to be their friends turn on them. I highly doubt you CG bought a 250G house strictly from caregiving. It may well take a dent out of his payment but seriously, this is beyond reality.

 

you missed my point.

 

i was not the one that turned on my friend either.

Edited August 13, 2012 by imiubu

[Dr. Bob]

Just to clarify things, we are allowed to "aquire" product wherever we can find it, legally. However as your attorney correctly pointed out the guy selling it is not technically legal, however as soon as the transaction is complete and provided he is clean, then, everyone is kosher.

 

Last I heard that was the deal.

 

 

The only problem I've heard of with it is that you are allowed to obtain for YOUR medical use, not resale to another patient. That was why the chains were shot down, resale is not medical use. Not saying there is no way to do it, but you are going from level 1 to level 2-3 risk if you obtain for your use and resell it to someone else. Best be your registered patient that you are transferring it to.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Dr. Bob

[SFC]

I may have missed the point Imi, but that was the way your post came across to me. Sorry if it was actually the other way. And sola, seriously? I keep it in general terms and you start talking mortgage rates, lol

[Restorium2]

Back to reality here. You can have up to 5 patients. How much can 5 patients pay? Then you subtract the expenses. Who's going to pay more than a few hundred a month tops for their meds? Then you subtract over half of that for expenses. A full load of 5 patients, each paying $300 a month, nets a caregiver about $9000 a year income if they are 100% successful. That's the job. The legal one. There's plenty of work with 5 patients. WORK. Rich people don't do that unless it's for another reason than money.

 

When someone drops the line about buying some expensive new house, and links that, even remotely, with caregiving, you have just talked a bunch of new people into doing something that will never work like they are dreaming. We have enough of that already, false hopes of large piles of cash from patients. Patients don't have all that cash. That's the bottom line. If you dance on over into illegal activity there is more money, sure. But it's short lived and there's a whole world of hurt waiting there for you. I know a guy in jail for that right now. His wife will serve right after he gets his time done. It all started with taking his extras to the dispensary so he could realize his dream cash.

[kathys]

I was quoting the attorney. He interjected that too. Why would you feel offended? And for your information, you would be surprised what some people feel is legal. I don't feel offended that you decided that I was giving worthless advice that everyone knows. Chillax. I was just answering your question. You're welcome.

 

Sorry, perhaps I took your answer in the wrong spirit. I do not wish to offend anyone. Thank you very much for trying to answer my question.

[kathys]

She sure is touchy. But still avoiding answering any direct questions.

 

Was this meant for me? What direct questions? And if its for me, yes I am very touchy. I am in level 9-10 pain, getting constant injections in my back, was re-injured in a physical therapy program which then gave me a femoral hernia and the repair was unsuccessful and I have been on bedrest for three months. To top it all off, my CG at the time (mind you, she wrote the contract and set prices) gave all her patients that were on the SSDI program 7 days to either pay more money or find a new CG. My new CG wouldn't start our plants until we renewed with him as CG (his preference, my loss) and now I rarely have enough money to buy my medicine. Really not out to offend anybody.

[Restorium2]

Was this meant for me? What direct questions? And if its for me, yes I am very touchy. I am in level 9-10 pain, getting constant injections in my back, was re-injured in a physical therapy program which then gave me a femoral hernia and the repair was unsuccessful and I have been on bedrest for three months. To top it all off, my CG at the time (mind you, she wrote the contract and set prices) gave all her patients that were on the SSDI program 7 days to either pay more money or find a new CG. My new CG wouldn't start our plants until we renewed with him as CG (his preference, my loss) and now I rarely have enough money to buy my medicine. Really not out to offend anybody.

Your caregiver having to resort to making you pay more was probably a direct result of bad information they believed was true when they signed you up. We have had a lot of trouble trying to get real information out to caregivers so they could be realistic with their patients right off the bat when they sign them up. Giving away free(or very low price) meds in the contract actually set most receiving patients back in the long run. If they would have been paying what it costs to produce, then the relationship might have been sustainable for a longer period of time. We had some folks telling the press that a caregiver could clean up with $50000 a year income too. That all hurts the caregiver/patient relationship when it's impossible to pull off legally with your 5 patients. Hopefully, we can get a better handle on the actual real numbers people can expect, and have less heartache in the community.

[phaquetoo]

Back to reality here. You can have up to 5 patients. How much can 5 patients pay? Then you subtract the expenses. Who's going to pay more than a few hundred a month tops for their meds? Then you subtract over half of that for expenses. A full load of 5 patients, each paying $300 a month, nets a caregiver about $9000 a year income if they are 100% successful. That's the job. The legal one. There's plenty of work with 5 patients. WORK. Rich people don't do that unless it's for another reason than money.

 

When someone drops the line about buying some expensive new house, and links that, even remotely, with caregiving, you have just talked a bunch of new people into doing something that will never work like they are dreaming. We have enough of that already, false hopes of large piles of cash from patients. Patients don't have all that cash. That's the bottom line. If you dance on over into illegal activity there is more money, sure. But it's short lived and there's a whole world of hurt waiting there for you. I know a guy in jail for that right now. His wife will serve right after he gets his time done. It all started with taking his extras to the dispensary so he could realize his dream cash.

 

I think at the beginning many people thought they were going to get rich as c.g's including my own who I dont have to pay anything to! People that have grown for many yrs (underground before the law) I think about 50% of them figured they could quit their day job, take on 5 pts and keep dealing to their under ground connections who they have been dealing with for yrs!

 

I have been there and back, I dont want to make any money off of my grow, I want to save money, Now that is gonna be hard for me to do, seeing how I get mine for Free! but after a few yrs now being with my c.g, Im trying to save him money! and grow my own and what ever I want to, and have the sugar leafs for oil and medibles, heck id like to make alot of dif tinctures from budd, but that prob wont happen, because I only have one pt, and we live together, so she has been being supplyed by my c.g thru me all along! Realy all I want is more choice of meds, I dont want to use the same mm like I had to for the last yr, I like a lil variety, I want something for day time and something for nite time, I want, I want I want, so I will do it myself! and not involve others, I have purchased some seeds and been given some good beens (hopefully) ive not started from seed yet, im trying to get a lil ahead of the game (stock) before i start from seed, plus I have some one willing to give me plants that have already been vegged and ready for the budd room!

 

Im not realy sure what I have into my whole grow room, but its getting to be rite around 2k, yep thats it, thats all the equipment, nutes, buckets, you name it I got it all for around that price, but im doing it in tents also, I purchased tents that came with lites and fans and you name it for dwc, the only thing ive changed is im not doing dwc any longer, im using promix, so I only needed to drill holes in the buckets I have, and box up a bunch of bubblers and my recent purchase of a high velocity 6" inline duct fan, im now able to put oh shoot at least 5 fans back in boxes, that one fan that ran me 100.95 bucks got rid of 3 inlines and 3 other fans just to circulate the air! and it is realy pulling on my room divider, (i have my room split with the white/black plastic from floor to ceiling) and on other side i have a budd tent and a grow smaller veg tent, I have the new inline hooked to my budd tent, moves 424 cfm, wow im loving it, but im kinda afraid its gonna suck my tent apart lol, my plant buckets are hovering around 1' off the floor now lol!

 

Bottom line is im not in it for the money, im in it for the convienence (can you remind me what is more convenient than free?) all I want to do is lay low stay under my limits, there is no such thing as overages, and I truly wish people would quit talking about overages! when some one says how do i only get 2.5 x 2 out of 12 plants, well that will be very hard, I guess you can skip the veg stage and go rite to budd and do a sea of green, or hey I got an idea, only grow a few of the 12 plants per pt, or maybe you can take care of all of your pts and yourself if your a pt with 12 or 20 plants! hmmmmmmm

 

 

Peace

Jim

[kathys]

Your caregiver having to resort to making you pay more was probably a direct result of bad information they believed was true when they signed you up. We have had a lot of trouble trying to get real information out to caregivers so they could be realistic with their patients right off the bat when they sign them up. Giving away free(or very low price) meds in the contract actually set most receiving patients back in the long run. If they would have been paying what it costs to produce, then the relationship might have been sustainable for a longer period of time. We had some folks telling the press that a caregiver could clean up with $50000 a year income too. That all hurts the caregiver/patient relationship when it's impossible to pull off legally with your 5 patients. Hopefully, we can get a better handle on the actual real numbers people can expect, and have less heartache in the community.

 

Great Post!

[Restorium2]

Jim Quote; I dont want to make any money off of my grow, I want to save money,

 

You nailed that one! I'm saving a ton of money. I was buying those cartel bags, ala hood style, with the knot in the top back in '08. It was really taxing my household budget. It's such a relief to get away from that. Better medicine that I can grow myself. A little piece of heaven fell right in our laps.

[phaquetoo]

Jim Quote; I dont want to make any money off of my grow, I want to save money,

 

You nailed that one! I'm saving a ton of money. I was buying those cartel bags, ala hood style, with the knot in the top back in '08. It was really taxing my household budget. It's such a relief to get away from that. Better medicine that I can grow myself. A little piece of heaven fell right in our laps.

 

oh god yes! plus it so much better!, but my c.g provides awsome meds, Im kinda feeling bad he didnt get what he wanted, but alot of people didnt get what they wanted pt and c.g alike! (see my c.g was realy compassionate and I wanted him to succede and get rich)

 

when the coa ruling came and shut down dispenses and p2p and c.g to any p that popped a bunch of peoples dream balloons eh? Like I said, Im gonna be 50 to soon here, and all I want is to do my own thing and not realy be involved in the b.s, dont get me wrong, I have pt friends id be more than happy to help out if need be, but I pretty much just want to be self sufficient, and i made sure everything i have can be ran on my generator (which i already had for camping) if need be.

 

Peace

Jim

Edited August 13, 2012 by phaquetoo

[GanjaWarrior]

oh god yes! plus it so much better!, but my c.g provides awsome meds, Im kinda feeling bad he didnt get what he wanted, but alot of people didnt get what they wanted pt and c.g alike! (see my c.g was realy compassionate and I wanted him to succede and get rich)

 

when the coa ruling came and shut down dispenses and p2p and c.g to any p that popped a bunch of peoples dream balloons eh? Like I said, Im gonna be 50 to soon here, and all I want is to do my own thing and not realy be involved in the b.s, dont get me wrong, I have pt friends id be more than happy to help out if need be, but I pretty much just want to be self sufficient, and i made sure everything i have can be ran on my generator (which i already had for camping) if need be.

 

Peace

Jim

 

 

jim i dont wanna get this thread off line...could you pm me the court ruling that says ...."when the coa ruling came and shut down dispenses and p2p and c.g to any p" or the link to it lol ty very much.

[Restorium2]

jim i dont wanna get this thread off line...could you pm me the court ruling that says ...."when the coa ruling came and shut down dispenses and p2p and c.g to any p" or the link to it lol ty very much.

I know a good guy that is in jail for trying to move his extra to a dispensary. His wife will serve time when he is done with his sentence. Is that enough for you? What more proof do you want that doing this is not an option?