Photo-period Findings: Flowering From Seed Vs From Clones?

[pic book]

When observed side-by-side, indica seed plants begin to flower when they get less than 15 hours of light, whereas indica clones begin to flower when they get less than 13 hours of light. Same cannabis strain, same room, same growing conditions, only diff is plants from from seeds or clones?

It seems to hold true even if the seed plants are much older and as much as twice as big as the clones. Clones just by their being clones, are triggered to flower by a lesser light period.

This suggests that cannabis plants for outdoors should be grown from seed. Seed will wait to begin flowering on about August 30 (at 13 hours of light). The seed plants will veg longer, get bigger, and fruit bigger, whereas the clones will trigger on July 18 (at 13 hours of light). Of course, clones will finish sooner by about 6 weeks than plants grown from seed?

If observed by others to be true, this finding should be good for seed bank sales?

[Bison]

You did this photoperiod experiment, pic book? What strain were you using and how long did you leave the seedlings and clones under 15/9?

[phaquetoo]

pulling up my chair to check this one out! Thanks

 

Peace

Jim

[abe supercro]

this is an interesting concept. is it more than a hypothesis?

[pic book]

My shared experience on the 2011 crop and this year's so far, Aug 10, 2012. It's our (not mine alone) current hypothesis to explain what has happened both years with ig13, duck foot (aka rambo), 5-pounder, purple kush, lemon cake (which is 70% sativa, not predom indica), afghani, blue widow, white widow, and uk cheese (and some of them may also be predomintly sativa), I can't remember.

Last year I thought maybe we shocked the clones when transplanting them (the seed plants were not transplanted), but now it has happened a second year, and only the clones have set bud while the seed plants haven't yet begun to flower. Weird, huh?

[GanjaWarrior]

so your saying clones are a faster turn around than seed plants?

[Bison]

It is strange, although clones do finish sometimes 2 weeks faster than the seedling from which they originate indoors, but I have never run less than 16/8 in veg indoors instead dropping straight to 12/12 when I want to flower.

[Celliach]

It is strange, although clones do finish sometimes 2 weeks faster than the seedling from which they originate indoors, but I have never run less than 16/8 in veg indoors instead dropping straight to 12/12 when I want to flower.

 

Probably because the clone starts life as an individual plant weeks after the mother plant was planted. In other words, the clone was already a few weeks old when it was started and continued it's life on that schedule.

[rhinoman]

Hey Pic, how come you dont grow plants that have been acclimated to grow in the big green thumb?

[Bison]

And clones will always turn around faster than seeds given same strain and phenotype. They simply show sex one or two weeks faster than seedlings, after that they pretty much grow the same.

 

Celliach, that's pretty much the idea, also part of the reason clones typically have alternating nodes immediately and seedlings have even nodes until they have sufficiently matured.

 

What surprises me is the flowering under 15/9 without being ruderalis...

[pic book]

It is strange, although clones do finish sometimes 2 weeks faster than the seedling from which they originate indoors, but I have never run less than 16/8 in veg indoors instead dropping straight to 12/12 when I want to flower.

The sun is not subject to any timer but its own. July 18 sunlight dropped below 15 hours and plants from cuttings (clones) have set buds. The plants from have seed have not and (if they do as last year) they will not start to set buds until about aug 30 (when sunlight drops to 13 hours)?

[pic book]

Hey Pic, how come you dont grow plants that have been acclimated to grow in the big green thumb?

I

For that I'd clone a short-season cold-resistant northern European strain.

Edited August 11, 2012 by pic book

[pic book]

I thought outdoors needed to finish earlier in Michigan to avoid mold?

Anywhere can produce mold. The warmer and wetter the environ the more likliehood. Mold thrives on warm dead air plus moisture. Whether at the Thumb or the Mitten, in MI, or wherever. A basement or greenhouse (due to being closed up) are commonly much the worse areas than outdoors, with its natural ventilation--wind. (How many moldy trees do you see out your window?) Also especially heavy undergrowth strains (very berry, big bud, five-pounder) without relatively dry conditions (55% relative humidity or less), and without forceful ventilation risk mold more so than lesser undergrowth strains (skunk #1).

[pic book]

Sept 8: In green houses under sun only--plants from seed have now been in flowering for a week, while those from clones (same strain side-by-side) have been adding buds since end of July. Those from seed are bigger and taller, even taller than the seed bank advertised they'd get and naturally so--they spent August vegging.

[phaquetoo]

got any pics?

 

Peace

Jim

[The Digital Nomad]

Celliach is correct - the clone was a copy of a plant that had grown past its pre-sex stage. Seedlings you have to wait until they express pre-sex before you can flower. I grew from seeds from Attitude Seed bank - this process took about 4 weeks minimum - that is four weeks you don't have to worry about with a clone.

 

 

Seeds have that extra step.

[DLD420]

Digital is correct, you can start flowering a clone as soon as it roots because it is already the age of its mother. Seedlings need to go at least a month before you can flower them. Not to sure of the hours needed to start flowering being different but I think I'll try and see for myself, good info if it's not strain specific.

[The Digital Nomad]

DLD, Celli said it first ; )

 

Now, the issue of photo period that causes flowering - have we considered that the seeds could be from Phenotype -

"Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.

 

The theory of Phenotype means that the same strain grown indoors vs outdoor will express different phenotype even though they have the same genotype

" genetic makeup of an organism or group of organisms with reference to a single trait, set of traits, or an entire complex of traits."

 

The plant grown indoors, and then bred for seeds could express a PHENOTYPE characteristic of requiring ABSOLUTE darkness, and 12/12 hours to flower

While the same plant - grown outdoors, and then bred for seeds could express a Phenotype of accepting moonlight and flowering at 15 hours of daylight.

 

 

(wiki used for definition, books and conversation used for knowledge )

Edited September 16, 2012 by The Digital Nomad

[pic book]

Celliach is correct - the clone was a copy of a plant that had grown past its pre-sex stage. Seedlings you have to wait until they express pre-sex before you can flower.

 

The clones began flowering mid-July, so because veg ended 6 weeks sooner than the palnts freom seed, are much smaller than the plants from seed, and yield is looking much less.

as the quote above, and posts below, suggest, the mothers had expressed pre-sex prior to being cloned, but that was for size of cuts, not to see pre-sex, as the seeds were fem (Both as to mothers and to the seed plants put in the grow).

As listed in OP, grow is both indica and pre-dom sativa

Edited September 16, 2012 by pic book

[restlesslegs]

Curious if you see much difference in yield? Great topic

[The Digital Nomad]

Even if seeds are feminized you still cannot flower them until they express the pre-sex. Trying to flower before they show pre-sex will take just as long as if you waited for the plant to show pre-sex, but you will have stressed it out due to cutting back the light when it needed it the most for growing.

 

Yes, clones can be cut at 8" to 10" giving the small plant a start on growth.

 

The yield should not be effected by clone vs seed - if they both are healthy, happy, and grown to harvest same time, etc.

 

Now, I am growing from seed and I do have to admit - I am seeing the vigor from seed plant that I did not have in clones - the seed plants are bigger in size and grew faster, bushier and taller. It is possible the seeded plant can yield more than the clone due to this vigor. I guess I will report on this as I clone from this plant I grew from seed.

Edited September 18, 2012 by The Digital Nomad

[pic book]

Sept 21--Clones finished this week, seed plants stopped veg growth and show new growth only in budding.

Yield looks to be 40% greater from seed plants than clones.

Seed plant sativas are foxtailing on upper tips while seed plant indicas continue budding throughout, no foxtailing.

Plants in ground show 30% greater veg and bud growth compared to plants in pots

and greater health, in addition to greater size.

Plants in ground showed greater resistance to white powdery mildew versus plants in pots.

Notes for next year in greenhouse:

1) Plants from seed only, not clones

2) Plants in ground, not in pots

3) Chem #4 x g13 (chemg)strain for its vigor, size, yield

[symbiote420]

Pic, you are correct in your findings I've grown outdoors for many years and I wondered when I had my Sour D's outside, some from seed the others from cuts and the cuts finished before Oct. while the seed plants didn't finish until close to Nov.

I breed my SD cut with a BCBD the Purps male and I noticed indoors the hybrids I made finished faster and in that particular grow I had a couple light leaks .....but no problems from the plants at all. My LA Con did the same thing seeds vs clones too! Most of the peeps I know who put cuts out this year have already or are harvesting right now ......the seed poppers will be going a few more weeks I just hope the weather holds up for everybody else, it's been cold as a mofo over the past week.