Link To The Fence Over Top Bill

[Hayduke]

they want a wire or equal cover so no one can get inside by climbing over the top. The versions I have seen do not require slats or fabric over the top, just link fencing or the like...

 

It is not law yet and may not ever pass. In terms of time, they have one day of session in Oct (the 17th), and a dozen or so days after the election but before the end of the year (that is the lame duck).

 

We can't control whether the bills are voted on or not. So we are concentrating on staying on top of the language, and prepping to gather support in the House to defeat 4834 in the event we are given the time necessary to do that. In the lame duck things move fast. All I can say is we are still tryin...

[Kingpinn]

Better cover your upside down also. And most of all cover that hide side !!

Edited October 11, 2012 by Kingpinn

[The Digital Nomad]

So we agree - secure and enclosed means all sides, and that includes the top and the cage itself cannot be lifted off.

[Fat Freddy]

So we agree - secure and enclosed means all sides, and that includes the top and the cage itself cannot be lifted off.

 

Works for me as long as I am not required to place a view obstructing covering over the top I am good with the rest.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Fat Freddy

[Restorium2]

Works for me as long as I am not required to place a view obstructing covering over the top I am good with the rest.

Doesn't matter what works for you. We are figuring out what the law says, to understand better what will have to work for all of us, if the law passes.

[Timmahh]

I think Larry King would disagree. as his Dog Kennel was enclosed on all SIDES, but open on the Top. When defining Structures, Sides, Floor and ROOF ALL have different Meanings and Positions. The Side always means the lateral part of the structure. One will never see ROOF, TOP, or COVER used to define a side, nor will one ever see SIDE or WALL or UP Standing used to depict Roof, Top or Cover.

 

They are as distinctly Different in the world of construction as Brief and Warrant are in a legal Sence.

 

 

A prison is a locked, enclosed facility. Even without armed guards, the prison yard is also a Locked Enclosed facility. Yet the Prison Yards have ZERO for a TOP, COVER, or ROOF.

 

The MMMA does NOT mandate the GROW AREA be in a Domicile, Home, Building, or even a NON OUT OF DOORS enclosure. It Simply states "Enclosed Locked Facility". Black's Law Dictionary give pretty much no definition of facility that is suitable to this discussion, other than

To Surround or Enclose; to fense or hem in on all sides; to place something in a parcel or envelope.

Note the LACK of the Terms Roof, Top or Cover, and that is the LEGAL Definition. now for the Common Man meaning of Miriam Webster, which states

 

fa·cil·i·ty

 

noun \fə-ˈsi-lə-tē\

plural fa·cil·i·ties

 

 

 

 

Definition of FACILITY

 

1

:

the quality of being easily performed

2

:

ease in performance

:

aptitude

3

:

readiness of compliance

4

a

(1)

:

something that makes an action, operation, or course of conduct easier —usually used in plural <

facilities

for study>

(2)

:

lavatory

2 —often used in plural

b : something (as a hospital) that is built, installed, or established to serve a particular purpose

 

 

Now the Commen Man definition of Enclosed by Miriam Webster

 

 

 

 

en·close

transitive verb \in-ˈklōz, en-\

 

 

 

 

Definition of ENCLOSE

 

1

a

(1)

:

to close in

:

surround

<

enclose

a porch with glass>

(2)

:

to fence off (common land) for individual use

b

: to hold in :

confine

2

:

to include along with something else in a parcel or envelope <a check is

enclosed

herewith>

 

 

Now how about that ALL IN AGREEMENT about this meaning EACH of the 6 sides of an "ENCLUSURE", because you WILL NOT FIND a legal definition that mandates ENCLOSURE To include a Top, Roof, or COVER....

[Restorium2]

I think Larry King would disagree. as his Dog Kennel was enclosed on all SIDES, but open on the Top. When defining Structures, Sides, Floor and ROOF ALL have different Meanings and Positions. The Side always means the lateral part of the structure. One will never see ROOF, TOP, or COVER used to define a side, nor will one ever see SIDE or WALL or UP Standing used to depict Roof, Top or Cover.

 

They are as distinctly Different in the world of construction as Brief and Warrant are in a legal Sence.

 

 

A prison is a locked, enclosed facility. Even without armed guards, the prison yard is also a Locked Enclosed facility. Yet the Prison Yards have ZERO for a TOP, COVER, or ROOF.

 

The MMMA does NOT mandate the GROW AREA be in a Domicile, Home, Building, or even a NON OUT OF DOORS enclosure. It Simply states "Enclosed Locked Facility". Black's Law Dictionary give pretty much no definition of facility that is suitable to this discussion, other than

Note the LACK of the Terms Roof, Top or Cover, and that is the LEGAL Definition. now for the Common Man meaning of Miriam Webster, which states

 

 

 

Now the Commen Man definition of Enclosed by Miriam Webster

 

 

 

Now how about that ALL IN AGREEMENT about this meaning EACH of the 6 sides of an "ENCLUSURE", because you WILL NOT FIND a legal definition that mandates ENCLOSURE To include a Top, Roof, or COVER....

Nope. It's as simple as this;

(4) ENCLOSED ON ALL SIDES, EXCEPT FOR THE BASE,

 

You can't argue that the top isn't considered a side when the base obviously is considered a side. If the base is a side, the top also is a side.

[The Digital Nomad]

tim for safety sake - for clarity - your outdoor grow needs to be enclosed on all sides, and that means the top. The COA said that the dog kennel was fine - except it was not secure to the ground.

 

"In People v King, the Court of Appeals held that a registered qualifying patient under the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act (MMMA) may only avoid prosecution for cultivating marihuana under § 8 of the Act if he has complied with other applicable sections of the MMMA. Section 4 of the act allows a registered qualifying patient “to cultivate marihuana . . . in an enclosed, locked facility.” Defendant was growing marihuana in a dog kennel that was six feet tall, but had an open top and was not anchored to the ground. The sides of the kennel were covered with black plastic and the entrance to the kennel was secured by a lock. The Court of Appeals ruled that defendant failed to comply with § 4, determining that an “open, moveable, chain-link kennel” does not qualify as an “other enclosed area” under the act."

 

I have experience with an outdoor grow that passed inspected because it was enclosed on the top to be secure from anyone reaching in and over.

 

BTW - prisons have armed guards on patrol.

[Timmahh]

Its obvious Access has to be taken into account. But if one can not reach over the Top and just Grab Meds, then there is no access without illegal entry. I highly doubt plants up to the side of the fensing where they can be taken through the fencing would qualify, but a 3 or 4 ft perimeter SHOULD suffice. Same should hold true for any Top area. If one can not reach over the top of the fence and grab plants, then any entry into the "Facility" would constitute Illegal entry, regardless of what is IN the facility.

 

 

have Yet to find any court documents where a Facility or "enclosure" has a definition that Dictates Top, Roof, or Cover. That is not to say none exists, but just not yet located.

 

With that said, I am willing to bet we will never find a converging definition, because one can not exist outside the physical construction of Buildings.

 

In Building construction, you have Floors, Walls, Ceiling, Doors, Windows all having distinct and separate meanings in relationship to the Structure, Facility, Building or Enclosure itself.

One is not contracted to Shingle a Ceiling, or side a ROOF or Cover/Lid ect. One Singles the Roof in most cases, but occasionally, Walls can be shingled. one will not apply Siding to a roof. A Roof has a definition unlike that of a side or a well. Much of this is due to the fact a Roofing structure nearly ALWAYS needs to be waterproof as to not allow weather to gain access to the interior, mostly due to the possibility of electrocution.

 

and even without armed guards on patrol, the yard is considered an enclosed and locked facility. You cant get in, they cant get out, without illegally climbing the fence. So even IF no armed guards were there,

 

The act of freely entering or exiting the secure facility of a Prison yard is a CRIME unless you have authorization.

Does that sound like a pretty common sense statement?

Edited October 11, 2012 by Timmahh

[Fat Freddy]

Ok rest I will refrain from being snide, Looking at the examples given one thing stood out. The parcel or envelope used as an example.

Does it have a roof? Not per say does it have sides? Yes 6 sides. Does it have a floor? No, it does however perform the function of " enclosing and containing a given object.

Another way to look at this is: A letter posted through the usps would be considered a secure enclosed facility. Why? it is sealed from all but the recipients view. "Supposedly"

Any opening of said letter by persons other than the recipient without authorisation is a crime.

 

Thinking logically it would be a safe bet to view it this way. Yes I understand the prison analogy, One could make an argument that prisoners are far more a excape threat then a plant is. Tongue in check.....

Edited October 11, 2012 by Fat Freddy

[Restorium2]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if it even works right. It's just about words, not fence, or prisoners, or anything other than the words they give us. You are looking at the practicality, or usefulness, which is a bygone matter. Now we just need to look at the words. And they are quite clear;

(4) ENCLOSED ON ALL SIDES, EXCEPT FOR THE BASE,

 

That means it needs a top. No doubt, or debate, needed. At least they made it easy to understand like that.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Restorium2

[Fat Freddy]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if it even works right. It's just about words, not fence, or prisoners, or anything other than the words they give us. You are looking at the practicality, or usefulness, which is a bygone matter. Now we just need to look at the words. And they are quite clear;

(4) ENCLOSED ON ALL SIDES, EXCEPT FOR THE BASE,

 

That means it needs a top. No doubt, or debate, needed. At least they made it easy to understand like that.

 

Legislative intent is the key here, that is how the courts will view this matter. I refer the matter to the recent Sct ruling, which stated that the matter in question was to be considered from the voters intent. With this in mind how would a court view the intent of the bill if passed?

[Kingpinn]

In my book all sides means four sides. You dont see a top on the enclosure at any state pen around the state. NO ROOF

[Restorium2]

Legislative intent is the key here, that is how the courts will view this matter. I refer the matter to the recent Sct ruling, which stated that the matter in question was to be considered from the voters intent. With this in mind how would a court view the intent of the bill if passed?

8 simple words is all you need. That's all the courts will need. It would take a judge all of 10 seconds to understand those 8 words.

[Kingpinn]

people in he!! want ice water too . NO ROOF

[Kingpinn]

Let um prove it in court then. I know what my dictionary tells me and ROOF aint one of them

Edited October 11, 2012 by Kingpinn

[Restorium2]

In my book all sides means four sides. You dont see a top on the enclosure at any state pen around the state. NO ROOF

Come on man. You can understand those 8 words. I know you have been beating your head against the wall. But what good can you do with this line of thinking? Lets keep it real, think about other patients, not just yourself.

[Kingpinn]

Lets be seeing some tops put on some these State Enclosures

[Restorium2]

Let um prove it in court then. I know what my dictionary tells me and ROOF aint one of them

This is about NEW WORDING. Clear new wording. Not about you or your courtroom positions. This is wording that can make it so other patients don't fall into the trap you did. You shouldn't lay the fronds back over the pit filled with spikes. Leave it uncovered and clear for all to see the trap, and you laying impaled on the spikes. That is how you can help others at this point.

[Kingpinn]

You kind of sound like a YES MAN restorium. All about me right. Like to see you walk a mile in my shoes restorium

Edited October 11, 2012 by Kingpinn

[Restorium2]

You kind of sound like a YES MAN restorium

If I help one patient not end up where you are, then it is worth your abuse. Call me whatever.

[Kingpinn]

Tell me all about abuse restorium

[Restorium2]

Tell me all about abuse restorium

I know all about it. That's why it needs to stop with you. You understand that better than anyone else I can think of. If this wording gets implemented, then the next patient that does what you did will be in an even worse position than you are. Just think about that for a second.

[Kingpinn]

Best way I know is to look them right in the eye. And say I,m mad as He!! and I,m not take this any longer. Their evil thugs that need to be put back in their place.

 

End of my Rant

Edited October 11, 2012 by Kingpinn

[Restorium2]

Best way I know is to look them right in the eye. And say I,m mad as He!! and I,m not take this any longer. Their evil thugs that need to be put back in their place.

 

End of my Rant

Look at it this way;

If they had to add those 8 words to make it so we need a top, then were you wrong when you didn't have one before those 8 words? I would think this could be encouraging for someone in your position. Get on that, it's another foot in the door for your defense. But once those words get implemented, there will be no more confusion defense. Even if you are confused, the judge will not be.