Lab Testing.

[Northern Lab]

Well, I think what Restorium is trying to say is that we are in the middle of one of the largest tests of medical cannabis on live subjects that has ever been done, and that effective plants will be found from this experience. Figuring out why they work and determining, without a live test subject, whether or not a stain would possibly work for a given condition, for that we would need chromatography.

 

Patients are great indicators of telling you what works. Chromatography is a powerful tool that can be used to help you figure out why and identify other strains with similar characterisitcs.

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, do you?

 

That's a very low blow. And very inaccurate.

 

I guess that's to be expected from this crew, despite my efforts personally to help them dispel some of the BS being spewed by bad actors in the 'lab community', if there is such a thing.

[peanutbutter]

I guess that's to be expected from this crew, despite my efforts personally to help them dispel some of the BS being spewed by bad actors in the 'lab community', if there is such a thing.

 

I stopped posting. They need someone new to attack. Looks like you're it.

[Northern Lab]

It's more like a lack of respect, Chad. I don't appreciate the innuendo and tarring your only active member here that owns a lab with the actions of all labs across the state and country.

 

If we wish to have a discussion about the merits and shortcomings of cannabis chromatography, I'm perfectly willing to have it as long as the arrogance and accusatory tone are absent.

[peanutbutter]

Hotchkiss identified what she called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:^[6]

1. Shamelessness: Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
   
2. Magical thinking: Narcissists see themselves as perfect, using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to dump shame onto others.
   
3. Arrogance: A narcissist who is feeling deflated may reinflate by diminishing, debasing, or degrading somebody else.
   
4. Envy: A narcissist may secure a sense of superiority in the face of another person's ability by using contempt to minimize the other person.
   
5. Entitlement: Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
   
6. Exploitation: Can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
   
7. Bad boundaries: Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist are treated as if they are part of the narcissist and are expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist there is no boundary between self and other.
   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

[Restorium2]

Northern Lab Quote;

I guess that's to be expected from this crew, despite my efforts personally to help them dispel some of the BS being spewed by bad actors in the 'lab community', if there is such a thing.

 

Let me get this straight;

There is a concerted effort by the 'crew' here to stop you from helping patients against attacks from your part of the community, but you aren't actually buying that the attacks actually exist. Yet, you base your contribution to our community, on dispelling these imaginary attacks? We should hold you up above the rest of the lab community because you placate us dispelling imaginary attacks?

 

How about a simple answer instead of your over-dramatized version; You don't have the science on your side as of yet. I think the ramblings of a prominent lab spokesperson above, Halent, shows the ambiguity in your test results. He said SKEW IT to get the desired placebo effect so people can be happier(and labs make more money).

[Restorium2]

Well peanutbutter, why don't you tell us how testing has improved the lives of patients in Michigan?

Right, rather than painting a self portrait ala Hotchkiss Theory.

[Northern Lab]

So far, from what I have seen, similar cannabinoid profile does not mean similar effect. That means that it is likely something not even being measured that accounts for the differences.

 

I guess it depends on what sort of 'effect' you're talking about.

 

CBD content has been shown to have significant influence on the psychoactive effects of THC. The more CBD, the less euphoric it tends to be. Once you reach a THC:CBD ratio of about 1:1 there is virtually no discernable euphoria when it is ingested. That's why people are in search of CBD rich strains - they realize that not everyone enjoys the euphoria, especially from high doses of oil used in cancer treatment, for example. CBD also has this great side effect of being an anti cancer agent.

 

It appears we have two levels of 'effects' at play here - cannabinoids and terpenes. We all acknowledge that THC is the component that produces the 'high' in cannabis. Terpene content influences how THC interacts with the brain and has been shown to be integral in the type of 'high' you get from THC. Couchlock vs stimulating, for example.

 

It's not as clear how terpenes influence the effects of CBD, since there is no 'high' to be modified. I would expect a terpene that acts as a cannabinoid agonist, would enhance the effects of CBD similar to how it influences the effects of THC, but I don't think we really have a definitive answer to that yet.

[CaveatLector]

That's a very low blow. And very inaccurate.

How is it a low blow? When someone advocates for something the fact that they make money off that something is always relevant. ALWAYS. The fact that you call it a low blow says a lot about you.

[Restorium2]

I guess it depends on what sort of 'effect' you're talking about.

 

CBD content has been shown to have significant influence on the psychoactive effects of THC. The more CBD, the less euphoric it tends to be. Once you reach a THC:CBD ratio of about 1:1 there is virtually no discernable euphoria when it is ingested. That's why people are in search of CBD rich strains - they realize that not everyone enjoys the euphoria, especially from high doses of oil used in cancer treatment, for example. CBD also has this great side effect of being an anti cancer agent.

 

It appears we have two levels of 'effects' at play here - cannabinoids and terpenes. We all acknowledge that THC is the component that produces the 'high' in cannabis. Terpene content influences how THC interacts with the brain and has been shown to be integral in the type of 'high' you get from THC. Couchlock vs stimulating, for example.

 

It's not as clear how terpenes influence the effects of CBD, since there is no 'high' to be modified. I would expect a terpene that acts as a cannabinoid agonist, would enhance the effects of CBD similar to how it influences the effects of THC, but I don't think we really have a definitive answer to that yet.

Here's just one example of the lack of science as back up;

Show me the proof that when we reach a 1:1 ratio of CBD to THC there is no euphoria. You know that scientifically this statement doesn't make any sense. It's a conclusion reached out of searching for a way to bust into a new market rather than an example of science. You are swimming way over your head and looking for something to stand on to get your head out of the water. The science is drowning you.

[Northern Lab]

Here's just one example of the lack of science as back up;

Show me the proof that when we reach a 1:1 ratio of CBD to THC there is no euphoria. You know that scientifically this statement doesn't make any sense. It's a conclusion reached out of searching for a way to bust into a new market rather than an example of science. You are swimming way over your head and looking for something to stand on to get your head out of the water. The science is drowning you.

 

I love the accusations! Effing awesome!

[Restorium2]

I love the accusations! Effing awesome!

Are you trying to say that the lab community isn't trying to find new ways to make money by finding CBD rich strains? You actually want to call that an acusation rather than a given? I proved the 'acusation' with the Halent quote above. It's a given. You are overly defensive and that blinds you from the science. Why didn't you just meet the challenge like a scientist?

Edited November 19, 2012 by Restorium2

[Northern Lab]

Yeah, looking for CBD is clearly a money making gimmick. It has nothing to do with CBD's medical value at all.

 

Congratulations, you've exposed our conspiracy.

[Restorium2]

Yeah, looking for CBD is clearly a money making gimmick. It has nothing to do with CBD's medical value at all.

 

Congratulations, you've exposed our conspiracy.

When asked for scientific back-up for what you whip out there like it's fact we get sarcasm.

[Northern Lab]

When asked for scientific back-up for what you whip out there like it's fact we get sarcasm.

 

We? Who is this we you're always referring to? I don't thing folks would appreciate you pretending to speak for them.

 

I don't have any evidence that I can post online. I have done extensive testing with a vareity of patients, however.

 

If you don't want to take my word for it, that's fine. Do your own research and prove me wrong.

 

Of course, that would require you to actually use a lab service. Don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

 

Have a nice day.

[Restorium2]

We? Who is this we you're always referring to? I don't thing folks would appreciate you pretending to speak for them.

 

I don't have any evidence that I can post online. I have done extensive testing with a vareity of patients, however.

 

If you don't want to take my word for it, that's fine. Do your own research and prove me wrong.

 

Of course, that would require you to actually use a lab service. Don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

 

Have a nice day.

We = readers. As in 'we get sarcasm'. I thought it was obvious.

[Northern Lab]

We = readers. As in 'we get sarcasm'. I thought it was obvious.

 

The sarcasm was directed at you and your accusations, not the readers. I thought that was obvious.

[Restorium2]

The sarcasm was directed at you and your accusations, not the readers. I thought that was obvious.

I assure you that many more people than me are reading this.

[michaelscott]

I'm glad we are chasing someone else off that makes positive contributions to this site and community. Rest, I am a patient and you don't represent me so please stop pretending to do so. I had a cup of coffee this morning with cream and sugar. Suddenly I felt a big boost in energy. I'm guessing it was because It was served hot or maybe it was magic, who knows. Why would anyone want to know?

[Northern Lab]

And also, I hope it is obvious that I am speaking of the medical effects of CBD, not the "THC-antagonist" role. I am highly skeptical that there are large numbers of patients seeking out a way to make the THC in their strain less effective. I am speaking of the medical effects claimed for CBD: anti-psychotic, anti-convulsant, sleep-inducing, anti-anxiety, etc.

 

Many people on very high doses of decarbe'd extract would welcome some oil that doesn't make them uncomfortably high. That's primarily why I cultivate CBD rich strains.

 

Well, that and to make a brazillion dollars and retire in the Caymans...

[CaveatLector]

Nobody is chasing anybody off. Relax. If you don't agree, just join the conversation and ante up your opinion like the rest of us here.

Well put.

I, for one, appreciate the back and forth because I feel it ferrets out the truth. I step back from this and read rather than join the fray since I don't have expertise in the field and am not knowledgeable enough to offer anything. But I'm learning from this discourse.

[Restorium2]

Many people on very high doses of decarbe'd extract would welcome some oil that doesn't make them uncomfortably high. That's primarily why I cultivate CBD rich strains.

 

Well, that and to make a brazillion dollars and retire in the Caymans...

I have one patient that gets uncomfortably high from an oil that does nothing at all for another patient. The results are totally patient related, not CBD related. There are no common denominators that you can count on to recommend from one patient to another. If you had done the actual patient testing research you would have also found this by now. This is why labs have such a limited use for us. They are almost totally useless in the real cannabis patient world.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Restorium2

[Northern Lab]

I am also highly skeptical of this, since THC has been identified as the main tumor-shrinking agent in cannabis.

\

 

A simple google search of 'CBD and cancer' brought up these links:

 

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/can-cannabidiol-cbd-fight-metastatic-cancer-according-to-the-latest-research-the-answer-is-yes-170681736.html

 

A lot more if you care to look: https://www.google.com/search?q=CBD+and+cancer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Northern Lab]

I have one patient that gets uncomfortably high from an oil that does nothing at all for another patient. The results are totally patient related, not CBD related. There are no common denominators that you can count on to recommend from one patient to another. If you had done the actual patient testing research you would have also found this by now. This is why labs have such a limited use for us. They are almost totally useless in the real cannabis patient world.

 

I don't see how you could make that claim without testing. And you lecture me.

 

Yes, I have done this. I am unconvinced after reading.

 

ok.

[Northern Lab]

It is funny that the link you provided is to a press release from the only publicly-traded medical cannabis company in the US. You seem to be making Restorium's point.

 

Well, the fact that they're in business automatically disqualifies anything they have to say, I guess. Oh well.

[Northern Lab]

No it is not that. You should read a bit about the history of the company and its executives.

 

I will. In the meantime I'm going to try and test these claims they've made.