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Civil Disobedience In Light Of Mcqueen


lawyercaregiver
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

 

Les us form one body, one heart, and defend to the last warrior our country, our homes, our liberty, and the graves of our fathers.

Chief Tecumseh

 

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater

 

Freedom is never more than one generation from extinction.

Ronald Reagan

 

We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty.

John F. Kennedy

 

Any friend of freedom must be revolted by the prospect of turning the United States into an armed vision of jails filled with casual drug users and an army of enforcers empowered to invade liberty on the slightest evidence.

Milton Friedman

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I am not exactly an expert on Social Justice Movements but as a lawyer with a PhD in Sociology I do play one on TV.

 

So let me describe my understanding of the various levels of Civil Disobedience.

 

We begin with an unjust law that a large majority of the State voted to overturn- just hypothetically, of course. :butt2:

 

Then we are told our vote is not going to be counted. :notfair:

 

Is there anything that remains except civil disobedience? :camp:

I believe the state of affairs that exists today with the Supreme Court's RIDICULOUS AND COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS finding of "Asymmetrical Protection under the MMMA reverts us nearly to the point we were BEFORE the law passed.

 

Of course that is EXACTLY what the voters intended- they wanted a JUDICIAL STAMP ACT- sure you can buy marijuana without penalty. However, anybody who SELLS to you or even GIVES to you is a FELON. Got that? Really? That is what the people of Michigan decided?

 

Here is how I see it. There are many levels of CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: I define at least 5:

 

Level 1, the lowest level involves widespread disregard and open contempt for the law. This was the state of affairs before the MMMA passed with 63% of the vote. Here we speak and think (quietly) of Speakeasies and Blind Pigs and underground economies.

 

Level 2: After the futility of peaceful protests are demonstrated, widespread disregard of the law increases and ultimately turns into open acts of defiance against law enforcement in general. Rallies may deliberately shut down government buildings, protesters might lay down on the freeway and passively resist (by going limp) while police and soldiers bind, beat, and roughly carry off the protesters (and forcefully sieze any cameras that witnessed the brutality). Public unrest grows at the corrupt government. Think Dr. King and the African-American civil rights movement or possibly the Egyptian protesters of the Arab Spring.

 

Level 3, is when a segment of the protesting population turns to lawlessness and even violence as the only recourse left to re-establish justice. Violence is often directed at law enforcement, bombs in the trash cans outside of the police headquarters, unending "prank" phone calls threatening certain prosecutors and legislators, false bomb threats, crowds occupying government building, and general riots with crowds throwing bottles and steaming canisters of tear gas at police barricades. We saw this in the American Revolution (and indeed all revolutions) but recall the small number of men willing to "hang Tories by the thumbs" or "dump tea into the harbor" and more recently with the 1960's bomb throwing Black Panthers and the Weather Underground. I would not be surprised if there were those at this stage right now who would pay to see 4 Supreme Court Justices and a prosecutor hanging by their thumbs in front of a jeering crowd, spitting on them, pasting them with rotted, moldy cannabis leaf clumps.

 

Level 4, is when the violent protesters coalesce into a general resistance movement. We saw this recently in Libya and the drama continues in Syria. Armed confrontation to the death between the oppressive system and and oppressed population.

 

One could argue level 5 is when all hope of peaceful change or organized resistance is gone and asymmetrical warfare and terrorism against soft targets are the only options.

 

We are back at level 1. Say the word Blueberry- and we will be at level 2. I will lay down on the freeway, shut down government buildings, and throw back the canisters of tear gas at the corrupt forces of tyranny. I am ready. I will be part of a group that shuts down the capital building.

 

For those of you at level 3 I understand but at this point I would preach caution- after all I don't want the forces of tyranny to kick down my door and shoot my dogs and children (especially since the story will only be printed for the Sheeple on page 47D).

Edited by lawyercaregiver
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The Court Upheld our law, it states clearly in Section 6 d a caregiver can assist 5 patients with the medical use,,,, That is what we the people voted for '

I do agree with the part of only 5 but you left out the main part that the voters were asked

And that Question was ? Should this law protect Registered and unregistered

Patients answer is yes

 

Until that happens no one is being helped only jailed

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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

 

Les us form one body, one heart, and defend to the last warrior our country, our homes, our liberty, and the graves of our fathers.

Chief Tecumseh

 

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater

 

Freedom is never more than one generation from extinction.

Ronald Reagan

 

We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty.

John F. Kennedy

 

Any friend of freedom must be revolted by the prospect of turning the United States into an armed vision of jails filled with casual drug users and an army of enforcers empowered to invade liberty on the slightest evidence.

Milton Friedman

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

C

 

 

I am not exactly an expert on Social Justice Movements but as a lawyer with a PhD in Sociology I do play one on TV.

 

So let me describe my understanding of the various levels of Civil Disobedience.

 

We begin with an unjust law that a large majority of the State voted to overturn- just hypothetically, of course. :butt2:

 

Then we are told our vote is not going to be counted. :notfair:

 

Is there anything that remains except civil disobedience? :camp:

I believe the state of affairs that exists today with the Supreme Court's RIDICULOUS AND COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS finding of "Asymmetrical Protection under the MMMA reverts us nearly to the point we were BEFORE the law passed.

 

Of course that is EXACTLY what the voters intended- they wanted a JUDICIAL STAMP ACT- sure you can buy marijuana without penalty. However, anybody who SELLS to you or even GIVES to you is a FELON. Got that? Really? That is what the people of Michigan decided?

 

Here is how I see it. There are many levels of CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: I define at least 5:

 

Level 1, the lowest level involves widespread disregard and open contempt for the law. This was the state of affairs before the MMMA passed with 63% of the vote. Here we speak and think (quietly) of Speakeasies and Blind Pigs and underground economies.

 

Level 2: After the futility of peaceful protests are demonstrated, widespread disregard of the law increases and ultimately turns into open acts of defiance against law enforcement in general. Rallies may deliberately shut down government buildings, protesters might lay down on the freeway and passively resist (by going limp) while police and soldiers bind, beat, and roughly carry off the protesters (and forcefully sieze any cameras that witnessed the brutality). Public unrest grows at the corrupt government. Think Dr. King and the African-American civil rights movement or possibly the Egyptian protesters of the Arab Spring.

 

Level 3, is when a segment of the protesting population turns to lawlessness and even violence as the only recourse left to re-establish justice. Violence is often directed at law enforcement, bombs in the trash cans outside of the police headquarters, unending "prank" phone calls threatening certain prosecutors and legislators, false bomb threats, crowds occupying government building, and general riots with crowds throwing bottles and steaming canisters of tear gas at police barricades. We saw this in the American Revolution (and indeed all revolutions) but recall the small number of men willing to "hang Tories by the thumbs" or "dump tea into the harbor" and more recently with the 1960's bomb throwing Black Panthers and the Weather Underground. I would not be surprised if there were those at this stage right now who would pay to see 4 Supreme Court Justices and a prosecutor hanging by their thumbs in front of a jeering crowd, spitting on them, pasting them with rotted, moldy cannabis leaf clumps.

 

Level 4, is when the violent protesters coalesce into a general resistance movement. We saw this recently in Libya and the drama continues in Syria. Armed confrontation to the death between the oppressive system and and oppressed population.

 

One could argue level 5 is when all hope of peaceful change or organized resistance is gone and asymmetrical warfare and terrorism against soft targets are the only options.

 

We are back at level 1. Say the word Blueberry- and we will be at level 2. I will lay down on the freeway, shut down government buildings, and throw back the canisters of tear gas at the corrupt forces of tyranny. I am ready. I will be part of a group that shuts down the capital building.

 

For those of you at level 3 I understand but at this point I would preach caution- after all I don't want the forces of tyranny to kick down my door and shoot my dogs and children (especially since the story will only be printed for the Sheeple on page 47D).

 

Thank you for your time we will be rallying the troops soon

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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

 

Les us form one body, one heart, and defend to the last warrior our country, our homes, our liberty, and the graves of our fathers.

Chief Tecumseh

 

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater

 

Freedom is never more than one generation from extinction.

Ronald Reagan

 

We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty.

John F. Kennedy

 

Any friend of freedom must be revolted by the prospect of turning the United States into an armed vision of jails filled with casual drug users and an army of enforcers empowered to invade liberty on the slightest evidence.

Milton Friedman

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I am not exactly an expert on Social Justice Movements but as a lawyer with a PhD in Sociology I do play one on TV.

 

So let me describe my understanding of the various levels of Civil Disobedience.

 

We begin with an unjust law that a large majority of the State voted to overturn- just hypothetically, of course. :butt2:

 

Then we are told our vote is not going to be counted. :notfair:

 

Is there anything that remains except civil disobedience? :camp:

I believe the state of affairs that exists today with the Supreme Court's RIDICULOUS AND COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS finding of "Asymmetrical Protection under the MMMA reverts us nearly to the point we were BEFORE the law passed.

 

Of course that is EXACTLY what the voters intended- they wanted a JUDICIAL STAMP ACT- sure you can buy marijuana without penalty. However, anybody who SELLS to you or even GIVES to you is a FELON. Got that? Really? That is what the people of Michigan decided?

 

Here is how I see it. There are many levels of CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: I define at least 5:

 

Level 1, the lowest level involves widespread disregard and open contempt for the law. This was the state of affairs before the MMMA passed with 63% of the vote. Here we speak and think (quietly) of Speakeasies and Blind Pigs and underground economies.

 

Level 2: After the futility of peaceful protests are demonstrated, widespread disregard of the law increases and ultimately turns into open acts of defiance against law enforcement in general. Rallies may deliberately shut down government buildings, protesters might lay down on the freeway and passively resist (by going limp) while police and soldiers bind, beat, and roughly carry off the protesters (and forcefully sieze any cameras that witnessed the brutality). Public unrest grows at the corrupt government. Think Dr. King and the African-American civil rights movement or possibly the Egyptian protesters of the Arab Spring.

 

Level 3, is when a segment of the protesting population turns to lawlessness and even violence as the only recourse left to re-establish justice. Violence is often directed at law enforcement, bombs in the trash cans outside of the police headquarters, unending "prank" phone calls threatening certain prosecutors and legislators, false bomb threats, crowds occupying government building, and general riots with crowds throwing bottles and steaming canisters of tear gas at police barricades. We saw this in the American Revolution (and indeed all revolutions) but recall the small number of men willing to "hang Tories by the thumbs" or "dump tea into the harbor" and more recently with the 1960's bomb throwing Black Panthers and the Weather Underground. I would not be surprised if there were those at this stage right now who would pay to see 4 Supreme Court Justices and a prosecutor hanging by their thumbs in front of a jeering crowd, spitting on them, pasting them with rotted, moldy cannabis leaf clumps.

 

Level 4, is when the violent protesters coalesce into a general resistance movement. We saw this recently in Libya and the drama continues in Syria. Armed confrontation to the death between the oppressive system and and oppressed population.

 

One could argue level 5 is when all hope of peaceful change or organized resistance is gone and asymmetrical warfare and terrorism against soft targets are the only options.

 

We are back at level 1. Say the word Blueberry- and we will be at level 2. I will lay down on the freeway, shut down government buildings, and throw back the canisters of tear gas at the corrupt forces of tyranny. I am ready. I will be part of a group that shuts down the capital building.

 

For those of you at level 3 I understand but at this point I would preach caution- after all I don't want the forces of tyranny to kick down my door and shoot my dogs and children (especially since the story will only be printed for the Sheeple on page 47D).

 

Knock yourself out. Joe Cain is out of the game with his markets and agitating. We need hysterical laughter anywhere we can find it.

Edited by GregS
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The only option left to us is to push to get a vote of the citizens of Michigan that will LEGALIZE cannabis as has been done in Colorado and Washington State.

 

It is the only thing that will take all of the BS out of the issue of MMJ / Cannabis / Pot / Weed !

 

Even if legalized, the medical marijuana program will still exist and will still be used and will still be guided and restricted by the current language.

 

Legalization in Washington amounts to buying marijuana from a state run dispensary. Colorado only allows 1 ounce and 6 plants.

 

*shrug*.

 

Just because legalization happens does not solve the problems patients face.

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Is there some lack of BS in Colorado and Washington all of a sudden? I think their BS is just beginning!

I agree.. there are too many people with too much sway and influence(and deep pockets) who don't want to see cannabis liberated. They stand to lose to much. Our lack of personal freedom, is how they retain their economic control.
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Is there some lack of BS in Colorado and Washington all of a sudden? I think their BS is just beginning!

 

 

There's always going to be BS, Zap.

So, should we not try to change the MJ laws because 'shite happens'???

And if we sit back and 'just let shite happen' here in Michigan, we will get even more BS!

And it will be handed to us by those in Lansing... count on it. Just as it is being done right now.

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Even if legalized, the medical marijuana program will still exist and will still be used and will still be guided and restricted by the current language.

 

Legalization in Washington amounts to buying marijuana from a state run dispensary. Colorado only allows 1 ounce and 6 plants.

 

*shrug*.

 

Just because legalization happens does not solve the problems patients face.

 

BUT, it would help take the federal government out of the picture, in terms of busting people on federal charges and putting them in prison, for the use of either MEDICAL MJ or 'legalized cannabis for general use".

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Wow. OMG Lawyercaregiver. Knock yourself out. I'll be watching for your Section 8 case.

 

Just beware that we're not talking about the old school Section 8 defense................ "The term Section 8 refers to a category of discharge from the United States military when judged mentally unfit for service...[courtesy of wikipedia]."

 

Question of the day:

 

If a man who represents himself has a fool for an attorney, what happens when an attorney represents himself?

 

All in good fun. I hope your civil disobedience goes well. :unsure:

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I am definitely not proposing doing nothing, but simply continuing to work along the same lines as the law currently allows rather than getting impatient, blowing off any progress that has been made, and inadvertently supporting a commercial takeover of cannabis. It seems to me that the ballot initiative in Washington, at least, went a completely different direction than their medical marijuana program.

 

Yes, Zap, but you restate a very important point... Washington, even though it passed a law legalizing cannabis use, still has their medical marijuana law in place, THAT did not change.

 

MMJ patients are STILL protected under that MMJ law, to whatever extent the MMJ law gives them protection, regardless of the new law that legalized cannabis for general use.

 

If we all waited for perfection, NOTHING would get done.

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I think we need to educate Law enforcement and Prosecutors and encourage them to respect for the Act, the way it is now.. they are still treating Patients and CGs like criminals. Most LEO have not read the law, don't understand it, and in their eyes nothing has changed. We should gain acceptance for the law we already have.. If they will not respect and honor the current Medical mj laws, they will not honor any new laws. more innocent people would go to jail who wouldn't have otherwise.

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I think we need to educate Law enforcement and Prosecutors and encourage them to respect for the Act, the way it is now.. they are still treating Patients and CGs like criminals. Most LEO have not read the law, don't understand it, and in their eyes nothing has changed. We should gain acceptance for the law we already have.. If they will not respect and honor the current Medical mj laws, they will not honor any new laws. more innocent people would go to jail who wouldn't have otherwise.

 

Do you have a plan for how to do that?

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I think we need to educate Law enforcement and Prosecutors and encourage them to respect for the Act, the way it is now.. they are still treating Patients and CGs like criminals. Most LEO have not read the law, don't understand it, and in their eyes nothing has changed. We should gain acceptance for the law we already have.. If they will not respect and honor the current Medical mj laws, they will not honor any new laws. more innocent people would go to jail who wouldn't have otherwise.

 

That is just not true. LEO has come a long darn ways since 09. I for one am thankful for that.

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Just to get this straight.......Is this thread condoning everyone break the law because some people don't agree with it?

 

If so, is lawyercaregiver going to be the first person to flaunt the law? Can we all make our decisions about whether to follow his advice after we see what LEO and the courts do to him?

 

I hate it when people suggest you break the law because the courts will vindicate you. The appeals process isn't easy and is likely to gravely effect or destroy your life. Ask Bob what they've done to him and Torey for the past four years.

 

Don't tell people to break the law unless you are willing to be the person in the front of the crowd breaking the law first!

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The Court Upheld our law, it states clearly in Section 6 d a caregiver can assist 5 patients with the medical use,,,, That is what we the people voted for '

 

disp be damned...we voted on plain wording. the word transfer is in there, you and i both know what "transfer" means out side of a court room. i read the law, even read it to my mother before we voted. This ruling is whack, no way to make rso now, no way to get proven genetics, no way to try them before you commit time and resources to growing.... the list goes on and on. this may very well have been a shot at disp, but lots of us will be hit with shrapnel.

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That is just not true. LEO has come a long darn ways since 09. I for one am thankful for that.

I guess that would depend on where you live and what LEOs your dealing with. My experience tells me they do not respect the law and will use any avenue they can to persecute patients&CGs...illegal searches and seizures,,CPS,, encouraging civil action, ect.. but I'm glad things have been working out well for you.
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Do you have a plan for how to do that?

 

No I don't but it sure sounds like a great idea MCL 333.26428(b) (emphasis added). This limitation is further supported by the explicit exceptions that allow a person to assert the § 8 affirmative defense outside the criminal context. Section 8© allows a patient or caregiver to assert a patient’s medical purpose for using marijuana outside the context of criminal proceedings, but only as a defense to “disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau” or the “forfeiture of any interest in or right to property.” MCL 333.26428©.

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No I don't but it sure sounds like a great idea MCL 333.26428(b) (emphasis added). This limitation is further supported by the explicit exceptions that allow a person to assert the § 8 affirmative defense outside the criminal context. Section 8© allows a patient or caregiver to assert a patient’s medical purpose for using marijuana outside the context of criminal proceedings, but only as a defense to “disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau” or the “forfeiture of any interest in or right to property.” MCL 333.26428©.

 

it's not really an idea. It's pointing out a problem. LEO and the courts need to be better educated. that's the problem. We all knew that already. What we need is ideas, and people, to solve the problem.

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I guess my statement was a little harsh, and i shouldn't make blanket statements. I'm sure there are some intelligent, understanding LEOs out there who respect the voters wishes and treat the medical community kindly. I have been a CG since early 09 when the MMMA first took effect, and never had any trouble or a reason to show my card until late 2012. then less then three months later.. here they come.

 

I respect the law, I just wish some could get past their old way of thinking and see that most patients&CGs are decent law abiding people.

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