Medical Marijuana Absurdities In Michigan: Patients Can't Share

[solabeirtan]

And what do I do if I have a medical condition, one that meets the required guidelines for mj use and for which the Doc has certified, that lands me in the hospital?

 

Who do you call? A lawyer??

 

OK. That would be a Qualified Patient and has a Cert. Say he is in a car accident? Goes to the Hospital ? Whaddaya need a frickin Lawyer for ? Your in a Hospital, right. If your that bad off, I'd suggest calling the Preacher man. You dont need a Lawyer.  You need some power from above, the capabilities of something mere  mortals canNOT provide.   Good Luck ....

[GregS]

I thought you were smarter than that.

[GanjaWarrior]

You aren't supposed to share any of your medications. 

 

 You are not supposed to give your vicodins or pennicillin to other patients.

 

So it is not absurd... it is just a total bummer because of how the program is and it SHOULD be allowed for a patient to give cannabis to another patient. Unfortuntaely MPP did not write into our law that kind of transfer as they have in a few other states.

 

 So to me not absurd... just lame.

mal

when you say that you kinda open a can of discussion.... ok so i cant share meds, and to prove that you make a comparison. well theres a problem with your comparison.... the antibiotics and the pain killers.... prescription...they can kill you, could be addictive blabla....but prescription only.... now my meds...doctor just recommended, just like he did cough drops and vitamins... your wrong on this one. the doc can write me a note to get aspirin at the gas station and if you have a headache i sure as hell can share.

[bobandtorey]

I agree Ganja Warrior 

is it  a medicine or is it a Herb (MMJ) thats the fine line

[Wild Bill]

mal

when you say that you kinda open a can of discussion.... ok so i cant share meds, and to prove that you make a comparison. well theres a problem with your comparison.... the antibiotics and the pain killers.... prescription...they can kill you, could be addictive blabla....but prescription only.... now my meds...doctor just recommended, just like he did cough drops and vitamins... your wrong on this one. the doc can write me a note to get aspirin at the gas station and if you have a headache i sure as hell can share.

You can't compare it with either one. Remember, the Feds say it has no medical value and classifies it the same as heroin. Nothing to do with right or wrong, strictly legal or illegal.

 

So in court it will be perceived the same as sharing a fix. It's getting better but we still tread dangerous ground.

[bobandtorey]

Get your card and stay within your limits but also as Jim would say louse lips sink ships 

once we get these case's to a jury things won't get any better until then thats why the courts don't want it to go their and they will fight to the death for their WIN'S

[+Malamute]

mal

when you say that you kinda open a can of discussion.... ok so i cant share meds, and to prove that you make a comparison. well theres a problem with your comparison.... the antibiotics and the pain killers.... prescription...they can kill you, could be addictive blabla....but prescription only.... now my meds...doctor just recommended, just like he did cough drops and vitamins... your wrong on this one. the doc can write me a note to get aspirin at the gas station and if you have a headache i sure as hell can share.

 

 On a personal level I think cannabis should be grown next to your tomatoes for any adult.  On a common sense and reality level pertaining to medical marijuana... you are not allowed to share your medicine in Michigan without the risk of arrest due to the concept I have laid out for you.

 

 If we wish to change it... we must garner a 75% majority of both houses and risk the gutting of our law by requesting a bill that would address  what we merely hope will be a 1 sentence adjustment which in reality we know will end up like the Walsh bills did or worse.

 

 So effectively in Michigan until we either pass a new ballot initiative or risk our law we are not allowed to share medicine without the risk of arrest.  It is a schedule 1 drug.

 

 That is how cannabis as medicine works in Michigan.  We can discuss the recreational legalization and the ability to share amongst adults... but that is a different topic.

[bobandtorey]

No change

New Law 

Start writing 

[+Malamute]

Wrote it 4 years ago....

 

;-)

[GregS]

Soo. How about another ballot initiative?

[+Malamute]

Need money...

 

:-)

[Natesilver]

How about a bunch of successful section 8 defenses that would set a precedent?

 

:-)

[+Malamute]

So far, tossing endless cases into the court system hasn't improved the results in this war on drugs.

 

:-)

 

But yes, I do agree,... we can only hope that more and more cases are dropped due to Sec 8 and less attention is paid to simple patient medical use. :-)

[bobandtorey]

Need money...

 

:-)

How much $$$ the last one was Matt's baby he wanted $1,000 dollars from a 1000 people to getter done

[Natesilver]

But yes, I do agree,... we can only hope that more and more cases are dropped due to Sec 8 and less attention is paid to simple patient medical use. :-)

 

 

I agree too, section 8 is very powerful and underestimated. This case? Section 8. Most patient to patient transactions? Section 8. Most dispensaries or farmer's markets? Section 8.

Of course, do you want to be the one to use a section 8 defense in court? Of course not! It's a long and expensive process.

But the fact remains, we are a section 8 state.

 

:-)

[+Malamute]

And there are no guarantees with Sec 8.

 

It is merely a defense to a crime(justified murder for example) not an immunity or guaranteed privilege.  It is a guaranteed privilege to present it but not a guaranteed privilege to use it successfully.

 

But I suppose once a certain number of cases have been fought in the courts enforcement and prosecution will slowly back away and focus on more blatant violations of the rest of the Act.  But then again 800'000 cannabis arrests currently in the country per year and that doesn't seem to slow em down much. :-)

[GregS]

How about a bunch of successful section 8 defenses that would set a precedent?

 

:-)

They  are happening. Setting precedent will take time due to the nature of the AD, which must be applied on a case by case basis. Inasmuch as facts will differ, many times substantially, it is not one size fits all. We have been waiting on this point, and I have made mention over the years that enough successful sec. 8 defenses will make it, in large part, boilerplate.

 

There are other things that can get in the way. Take for instance Kingpinn in Shiawassee County. The Court is somehow stonewalling after having been told by the Supreme Court to get it right and let the guy plead the defense. Larry does not know why this is happening and cannot explain, other than to criticize, rightly I think, the Court, but not with any specifics. Can it be that he has ineffective or incompetent counsel in Matt Abel? Can the Court legitimately continue to drag it out? Whatever the case, I believe we are looking at judicial and prosecutorial misconduct.

 

Edited June 26, 2013 by GregS

[GregS]

Where p2p transactions are concerned, as long as the transferor can be demonstrated to be the transferee's unregistered caregiver, and as long as the transferee has a physician's recommendation to use, with or without sending that recommendation to the state, that transaction is covered under the AD.

[GregS]

Need money...

 

:-)

If an organization had the boots on the ground to solicit donations to a PAC or other activist purpose, to approach lawyers and doctors and any possible contributor, it might be done. For that matter, money is where you find it. Holding events, some for the expressed purpose of fund raising, and others for other purposes but with the expectation by attendees that the hat will be passed can be considered. You may be right. There are presently no organizations in the state prepared to do the work as there once were.

[LongHairBri]

until the docket has case law moving the interpretation of our law towards common sense and fairness, the best way to stay out of trouble is simple. act like the law was never passed, that the cards mark you as a criminal instead of offering protection, and that arrest statistics, forfeiture dollars and positive press are the primary motivating forces behind ALL actions taken by our states LEO & Prosecutors. it's how they're graded in job performance, how they balance their budgets and where the money they waste on.....night vision equipment, FLIR helicopters, automatic weapons, swat swag, fancy dare cars, trips to exotic places for "seminars", or, if you a Romulus cop, you would have even spent some on hookers, weed, boobie-bar-tabs...even a tanning salon for your wife. they're not stupid and don't just pull this crap out of thin air, they fight for their jobs, the wasteful spending on personnel, weapons and gear that has become the norm, and most importantly, they fight for their unlimited unaudited personal piggy banks. public service doesn't pay very well above board. it motivates every politician to reach for dirty PAC dollars, special intrest money and/or tainted campaign contributions, every cop to lie or fabricate in order to advance a case at any cost. and, every prosecutor to have a very narrow, twisted interpretation and application of the MMMP. every change or ruling is seen as a direct attack against their way of life. it IS personal to them. a fight for their reason for existence. ask yourself. why would it cost millions of dollars to run and be elected to a position that pays 50K? the only way and only reason to ever want to be elected in the first place is to accept cash/gifts/bribes/kickbacks any and everywhere you can. the lies have been told and re-told so many times it's actually brain-washed their narrow minds into believing the propaganda they spew. common sense/truth be damned....just think of the children!!!

 

change isn't going to be easy either. elections, lifestyles and retirement aren't free. it would take some DRASTIC , life changing events to get this system back on track. like a civil revolt/war, being invaded, occupied and controlled by a foreign army, loosing a world war, domestic nuclear attack, a plague or epidemic killing 80% of our citizens?? I would have to be big.........something that destroys the entire culture and installs a new mentality and set of rules

e

 

want it simple? pretend it's still illegal, hide it well, enclosed, out of sight and hopefully locked, never show or discuss your card until the cuffs are on, your locked in the back and the police car is being shifted into drive to take you to jail. when in public, anyone you don't personally know should be suspected as a cop or informant. (trust no-one, ever). and the #1 way to avoid trouble? KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. regular people don't need to know your business and cops WILL twist every word to get a conviction....it's their job, their future depends on it !! RARELY are crimes solved by investigation. crimes are solved by informants and statements made by suspects. someone tells them something, putting them on your trail. then your interviewed and give up some clue or info. that's used to deny your rights, exclude testimony and facts that could sway a jury. effectively eliminating your best defenses as your words get warped into a nice tidy conviction or plea. win at all cost, darn the truth or the plain simple language written into our law.

[bobandtorey]

until the docket has case law moving the interpretation of our law towards common sense and fairness, the best way to stay out of trouble is simple. act like the law was never passed,

 

that the cards mark you as a criminal instead of offering protection, and that arrest statistics, forfeiture dollars and positive press are the primary motivating forces behind ALL actions taken by our states LEO & Prosecutors. it's how they're graded in job performance, how they balance their budgets and where the money they waste on.....night vision equipment, FLIR helicopters, automatic weapons, swat swag, fancy dare cars, trips to exotic places for "seminars",

 

or, if you a Romulus cop, you would have even spent some on hookers, weed, boobie-bar-tabs...even a tanning salon for your wife. they're not stupid and don't just pull this crap out of thin air, they fight for their jobs,

 

 the wasteful spending on personnel, weapons and gear that has become the norm, and most importantly, they fight for their unlimited unaudited personal piggy banks. public service doesn't pay very well above board.

 

it motivates every politician to reach for dirty PAC dollars, special intrest money and/or tainted campaign contributions, every cop to lie or fabricate in order to advance a case at any cost. and, every prosecutor to have a very narrow, twisted interpretation and application of the MMMP.

 

every change or ruling is seen as a direct attack against their way of life. it IS personal to them. a fight for their reason for existence. ask yourself. why would it cost millions of dollars to run and be elected to a position that pays 50K? the only way and only reason to ever want to be elected in the first place is to accept cash/gifts/bribes/kickbacks any and everywhere you can. the lies have been told and re-told so many times it's actually brain-washed their narrow minds into believing the propaganda they spew. common sense/truth be damned....just think of the children!!!

 

change isn't going to be easy either. elections, lifestyles and retirement aren't free. it would take some DRASTIC , life changing events to get this system back on track. like a civil revolt/war, being invaded, occupied and controlled by a foreign army, loosing a world war, domestic nuclear attack, a plague or epidemic killing 80% of our citizens?? I would have to be big.........something that destroys the entire culture and installs a new mentality and set of rules

e

 

want it simple? pretend it's still illegal, hide it well, enclosed, out of sight and hopefully locked, never show or discuss your card until the cuffs are on, your locked in the back and the police car is being shifted into drive to take you to jail. when in public, anyone you don't personally know should be suspected as a cop or informant. (trust no-one, ever). and the #1 way to avoid trouble? KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

 

regular people don't need to know your business and cops WILL twist every word to get a conviction....it's their job, their future depends on it !! RARELY are crimes solved by investigation. crimes are solved by informants and statements made by suspects.

 

someone tells them something, putting them on your trail. then your interviewed and give up some clue or info. that's used to deny your rights, exclude testimony and facts that could sway a jury. effectively eliminating your best defenses as your words get warped into a nice tidy conviction or plea. win at all cost, darn the truth or the plain simple language written into our law.

 

WOW! very good and to the point

 

i agree trust no one tell no one 

 

I used to tell people all the time if me and Torey where not legal then no one is 

 

guess what happen to us

[Natesilver]

Where p2p transactions are concerned, as long as the transferor can be demonstrated to be the transferee's unregistered caregiver, and as long as the transferee has a physician's recommendation to use, with or without sending that recommendation to the state, that transaction is covered under the AD.

 

The law is very clear in this regard. I don't understand why some people are so resistant to section 8. Not resistant to embracing it, I sure wouldn't want to defend a section 8 case the way things stand right now. But resistant to actually acknowledge what section 8 covers. It's almost as if certain members wished section 8 didn't exist and the law ended at section 4. I see those who harbor this mindset as self-serving and quite uncompassionate. All too often, this very vocal minority is on full display here with no dissenting viewpoint permitted.

[GregS]

The law is very clear in this regard. I don't understand why some people are so resistant to section 8. Not resistant to embracing it, I sure wouldn't want to defend a section 8 case the way things stand right now. But resistant to actually acknowledge what section 8 covers. It's almost as if certain members wished section 8 didn't exist and the law ended at section 4. I see those who harbor this mindset as self-serving and quite uncompassionate. All too often, this very vocal minority is on full display here with no dissenting viewpoint permitted.

Believe me. There have been long and terse discussions about this behind closed doors here at the MMMA after repeated efforts to discuss it at large on the board, only to have those discussions censored. Arguments to ignore the defense and keep hushed about its provisions were put forth by some very visible people on the site. Your last sentence says it all.

 

Thank you for your accurate observation.

Edited June 26, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

I've been involved in a number of section 8 defenses, most recently this week (dismissal).  Section 8 works well if you have a good story to tell.  It does NOT work well if you do something you CLEARLY are not allowed to do, like P2P or any of this 'unregistered caregiver' nonsense our friend likes to talk about.

 

The problem with internet forums is that everyone is a jail house lawyer.  Especially if they are letting OTHERS take the risk for following their advice.  My approach is always conservative and safe.  It is designed to keep folks out of the courts and give the community mindset a chance to change- both with the general public and the medical community.  

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Oddly enough I will walk into a courtroom tomorrow as a family counselor for a close relative at which point we will begin section 8 proceedings. We are clear on our objectives and will bring them to bear.

 

Unregistered caregivers are protected from conviction, as long as the three prongs of the Affirmative Defense are met. How is that nonsense?

 

Sec. 8. (a) Except as provided in section 7(b), a patient and a patient's primary caregiver, if any, may assert the medical purpose for using marihuana as a defense to any prosecution involving marihuana, and this defense shall be presumed valid where the evidence shows that:

(1) A physician has stated that, in the physician's professional opinion, after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship, the patient is likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms of the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition;

(2) The patient and the patient's primary caregiver, if any, were collectively in possession of a quantity of marihuana that was not more than was reasonably necessary to ensure the uninterrupted availability of marihuana for the purpose of treating or alleviating the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms of the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition; and

(3) The patient and the patient's primary caregiver, if any, were engaged in the acquisition, possession, cultivation, manufacture, use, delivery, transfer, or transportation of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms of the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition.

 

3(h) (definitions) "Primary caregiver" or "caregiver" means a person who is at least 21 years old and who has agreed to assist with a patient's medical use of marihuana and who has not been convicted of any felony within the past 10 years and has never been convicted of a felony involving illegal drugs or a felony that is an assaultive crime as defined in section 9a of chapter X of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 770.9a.

 

There is no requirement that they be registered under the AD.

 

And yeah. We know that it is a potential pain in the asz, but we deal with those daily here.

Edited June 26, 2013 by GregS