Can An Unregistered Patient Have A Caregiver That Is Protected By Section 8?

[GregS]

These are the questions we are waiting for answers to. When we get them, the conversation is likely to end:

 

"Cav, why don't you touch on the difference between an unregistered caregiver selling to a patient and a street dealer selling to a patient?  I am curious as to how you would establish the connection for the unregistered caregiver.  I am also curious as to whether the unregistered caregiver would be bound by the limits a registered caregiver has, namely 5 patients, 60-72 plants, etc.

 

Under section 8 is the caregiver considered a separate and independent entity or is it 'patient/person and their primary caregiver'.  Is there any part of section 8 that involves a caregiver without an associated patient?  For example if the police observe two people exchanging money and cannabis, and the cannabis is in the possession of the patient in the end, if they let the patient go and arrest the caregiver how would the caregiver go about establishing an independent section 8 defense without involving the patient?

 

Dr. Bob"

 

"How much money does a circuit court defense, up to and including the evidentiary hearing,  at which point the case would presumably be dismissed, typically cost?"

 

"Is there a show cause requirement in sec. 8 Cav? Can a judge rightly order one?"

 

"soo. Will a notarized agreement like the one posted above, along with the supporting documents and a zip, provide a preponderance of evidence that would satisfy the requirements?"

Edited July 27, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Is that the best you can do? I've always considered you an intelligent and articulate guy. I don't see any of that here

 

Apparently Townsend and a few others did not get it the first, or second, or third time around, and insisted that I restate some points. I'm happy to oblige.

No, we got it, and told you that you were clearly wrong.  Then you keep repeating yourself despite being told and shown you were wrong.  Not bothering to do so anymore.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

No, we got it, and told you that you were clearly wrong.  Then you keep repeating yourself despite being told and shown you were wrong.  Not bothering to do so anymore.

 

Dr. Bob

Do you still maintain there is no such thing as an unregistered caregiver? If they were to exist would they not eligible to use the AD? My entire premise is that there are and they are. That is what you and your imaginary experts and other brilliant minds, like celli, have been telling me I am wrong about.

 

FWIW, a sec. 8 motion to dismiss is heard at at an evidentiary hearing. That is quite different from a show cause hearing. Google is uuber user friendly. You can tell resto all about it.

 

I believe the community sees you for the fraud you are. THAT is common sense.

 

When can I meet the patients you offered up that want me to sign on with them?

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Clare Sheriff's department, bring your 25 ounces.  That was already put out there.

 

Groundhog Day is right.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Clare Sheriff's department, bring your 25 ounces.  That was already put out there.

 

Groundhog Day is right.

 

Dr. Bob

My bank. Your ten patients, each with a valid physician statement on the required supporting documents, and 3k in hand. Delivery of one pound will be made when it is grown and dried. Those are my terms.

 

This is a brand new day.

 

Will you please answer the question? Do you still maintain that the law does not permit unregistered caregivers who are entitled to a sec. 8 defense? THAT, along with supporting facts, is precisely what I have been responding to in response to your repeated claim that they are neither permitted nor protected.

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

You don't get to make the conditions.  It is at the sheriff's department so you can stand behind your scheme.  If you are legal and right, you have nothing to worry about.

 

I find it interesting you want to go to a bank.  Goes right along with my assessment of your motivations.  

 

Ground Hog Day.  But no matter how many times you say the same thing, the answer doesn't change and you don't learn.  So until you are willing to risk your own skin and do this in the light of day, I don't feel the need to discuss it further with you.

 

BTW, I did discuss this with my lawyer, you are full of crap and will not only will your 'unregistered caregivers' go down, you might well be charged with criminal conspiracy if you actually open your farmers market on this model.  You don't get to escape responsibility and make others take the risk.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

You don't get to make the conditions.  It is at the sheriff's department so you can stand behind your scheme.  If you are legal and right, you have nothing to worry about.

 

I find it interesting you want to go to a bank.  Goes right along with my assessment of your motivations.  

 

Ground Hog Day.  But no matter how many times you say the same thing, the answer doesn't change and you don't learn.  So until you are willing to risk your own skin and do this in the light of day, I don't feel the need to discuss it further with you.

 

BTW, I did discuss this with my lawyer, you are full of crap and will not only will your 'unregistered caregivers' go down, you might well be charged with criminal conspiracy if you actually open your farmers market on this model.  You don't get to escape responsibility and make others take the risk.

 

Dr. Bob

My bank offers me free notary services which are necessary to conclude the required documents. Police departments don't offer any. Those are my terms. If you and they do not agree, the deal is off. Your call. I have already said to drop the market idea. This can work without it, and can be and is intended to be used in private agreements between any patient and any caregiver.

 

Does the law permit unregistered caregivers who are eligible to use the AD Townsend? Your repetitive harangues to the contrary has caused this discussion to go on this long. Answer the question please. That will help to end the matter.

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[Restorium2]

Does the law permit unregistered caregivers who are eligible to use the AD Townsend?

 

Only a judge can tell, and that's after you have been to jail for a few days or weeks. Knock it off Greg.  

[Celliach]

Notarized documents are inadmissable in court as hearsay evidence, Greg.  I keep telling you this and asking you to check with a lawyer to prove that I'm right.  PLEASE go ask a lawyer so you can finally understand what wrong with your idea.

[Dr. Bob]

I strongly doubt there is such a thing as an eligible unregistered caregiver.  The conditions for such a thing have been clearly listed- emergency, one time episode without exchange of compensation is a possibility where it could be raised, but it is VERY doubtful.  You are welcome to try at the sheriff's department.  Documents can be notarized in advance, but the point is that you have to personally take the risk of consequences by doing it in front of LEO.

 

This is a pointless conversation of a dangerous theory that could hurt patients.  All that needs to be said about it has been.  

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

He wont because he is a true believer and even his lawyer wont convince him of the errors in his logic.  Let him have his beliefs.  I just hope no one else puts themselves at risk because he keeps saying it as if it is true to the point they may actually start believing it is true.  It is simply a delusion and he is clinging to it to avoid losing face.  

 

Let it go, we can all post 'Greg you are right' and put an end to it.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Notarized documents are inadmissable in court as hearsay evidence, Greg.  I keep telling you this and asking you to check with a lawyer to prove that I'm right.  PLEASE go ask a lawyer so you can finally understand what wrong with your idea.

Christ. So I have to post this again. You apparently missed it the first two times. It is straight from a very good attorney, Mr. Schmid, and is again posted with required credit to the author. Is it out of your depth?:

 

 Methods of Proving the Elements of the Defense at Evidentiary Hearing   

Proving the Physicians’ statement: On the Cheap.   It is essential that this defense be presentable without live testimony from the doctor. The court will likely make defendant prove the “physician” is licensed, and so a certified record should be obtained early to avoid an MRE 902 emergency. Technically the patient can prove that the physician statement was made without hearsay objection, as the fact that the statement was made is the operative fact in question. As the law does not allow a Judge to second guess the physician[s professional opinion in this regard, so the defendant need only prove the statement was made, not whether it was reasonable.   However, prosecutor will argue that defendant needs also to prove that the statement was a considered one, and that may not be so easy.     The prosecutor will argue that the statute provides the statement must be made “after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and patient's current medical condition”, and that must being the course of a bona fide physician patient relationship. The defendant can testify on personal knowledge that he was there and observed the “complete assessment” taking place, and can establish the bona fide relationship, but will the showing be of sufficient weight to pass the preponderance test? Who is a patient to judge what constitutes a full assessment by a doctor? The Patient can testify that the doctor said he completed the full assessment, but if the question of whether that full assessment really took place is in issue, then such testimony would be hearsay because is would be offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted – that the full assessment was made.   Three solutions present themselves. MRE 803(6) Hearsay exception for regularly kept business records could get written medical reports into evidence to prove the complete assessment occurred, and even the bona fide relationship. This would merely require compliance with MCL 902(11), and the assumption that the doctor wrote it all down. [see MRE 902(11)] Certified records of regularly conducted activity.  The original or a duplicate of a record…of regularly conducted business activity that would be admissible under rule 803(6), if accompanied by a w r i t t e n d e c l a r a t i o n u n d e r o a t h b y i t s c u s t o d i a n o r o t h e r q u a li f i e d p e r s o n certifying that….the record is contemporaneous to the complete assessment, in the course of regular activity, and according to regular practice. Counsel should obtain this affidavit early, as prior notice of the declaration is a condition to self authentication. Of course, if seems obvious but that MRE 

803(4) would apply. “ Statements made for purposes of medical treatment o r m e d i c a l d i a g n o s i s i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t r e a t m e n t. Statements made for purposes of medical treatment or medical diagnosis in connection with treatment and describing medical history, or past or present symptoms, pain, or sensations, or the inception or general character of the cause or external source thereof insofar as reasonably necessary to such diagnosis and treatment.”   However, counsel may be confronted with the argument that the rule admits patient statements made to aid in diagnosis, not those of the Doctor made to express the completeness of the doctor’s assessment. Counsel may simply wish to argue that the element should be interpreted to mean that the “statement made” language includes the statement that the doctor made a full assessment of the history and current condition. That is, that he has stated,  “that, in the physician's professional opinion, after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician patient relationship, the patient is likely….” In this interpretation, the patient’s testimony would be admissible to establish the entire element, and sound something like this, “He stated he had made a full assessment of my medical history and current condition, and that he had formed a professional opinion…, which was that I was likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the use of marijuana to (treat or alleviate) my (serious medical condition or debilitating medical condition or symptoms thereof).” 

 

see the formbank where most of this has been done/considered

https://sites.google.com/site/medcannabis/freeformbank

 

And Bob. Yes you can.

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Pick the right numbers and you win the lottery.  Another non-argument.  Missed the basic point again.  For patients, prove your case, meet the prongs.  Caregivers protected via their patient, not independently.  

 

Groundhog Day again.

 

Maybe today the answer will be different, good luck.

 

Dr. Bob

[Restorium2]

He wont because he is a true believer and even his lawyer wont convince him of the errors in his logic.  Let him have his beliefs.  I just hope no one else puts themselves at risk because he keeps saying it as if it is true to the point they may actually start believing it is true.  It is simply a delusion and he is clinging to it to avoid losing face.  

 

Let it go, we can all post 'Greg you are right' and put an end to it.

 

Dr. Bob

Using history, like with p to p transfers, Greg does not care if it works. He likes the position of defending something everyone wishes would work. Then he can say he was our Champion. Isn't that cute? It's what he does. Just like peanutbutter does. Then you can be an internet hero without doing a thing but telling people what they wish were true.

[Dr. Bob]

Always easier to tell people what they want to hear and wish was true.  He has had many of these 'quests' in the past, p2p, etc.  Maybe one day he will have one that actually comes true.

 

Even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Does the law permit unregistered caregivers who are eligible to use the AD Townsend?

 

Only a judge can tell, and that's after you have been to jail for a few days or weeks. Knock it off Greg.  

The law states that any person can bring the defense in any prosecution in any case involving marijuana. Do you dispute that?

[phaquetoo]

These are the questions we are waiting for answers to. When we get them, the conversation is likely to end:

 

"Cav, why don't you touch on the difference between an unregistered caregiver selling to a patient and a street dealer selling to a patient?  I am curious as to how you would establish the connection for the unregistered caregiver.  I am also curious as to whether the unregistered caregiver would be bound by the limits a registered caregiver has, namely 5 patients, 60-72 plants, etc.

 

Under section 8 is the caregiver considered a separate and independent entity or is it 'patient/person and their primary caregiver'.  Is there any part of section 8 that involves a caregiver without an associated patient?  For example if the police observe two people exchanging money and cannabis, and the cannabis is in the possession of the patient in the end, if they let the patient go and arrest the caregiver how would the caregiver go about establishing an independent section 8 defense without involving the patient?

 

Dr. Bob"

 

"How much money does a circuit court defense, up to and including the evidentiary hearing,  at which point the case would presumably be dismissed, typically cost?"

 

"Is there a show cause requirement in sec. 8 Cav? Can a judge rightly order one?"

 

"soo. Will a notarized agreement like the one posted above, along with the supporting documents and a zip, provide a preponderance of evidence that would satisfy the requirements?"

so let me get this straight, Your waiting on cav's opinion and dr. Bob's opinion before you stop this nonsense?

 

Do you think you are the only one with heart problems and sugar diabetes? dude your not alone, why cant people look at the law and know what it means, some say it was a badly written law from the beginning, I say its getting worse, because people keep pushing things that are not legal,  You seem to be alot smarter than you are acting greg, Why dont you just leave it alone, start gathering donations so you can afford to hire some one to go to the capital and get parts of the law that the coa and sc ruled ilegal on us?

 

no offense to any of you, dr. bob, cav or you greg. move on and forward, dont try and get us to go back any more, I cant even beleive we are talking about a non registered c.g,,now tell my how that happens, are we talking about the guys out on the corner who have com weed in one pocket and crack in the other for sale?

 

Non sense this whole thread and the last one is nothing but total nonsense!

 

 

Peace

Jim

[bobandtorey]

And the Law also say's you can't be arrested if you have a card doesn't it ?

[GregS]

Using history, like with p to p transfers, Greg does not care if it works. He likes the position of defending something everyone wishes would work. Then he can say he was our Champion. Isn't that cute? It's what he does. Just like peanutbutter does. Then you can be an internet hero without doing a thing but telling people what they wish were true.

Wiil you produce something, anything, that quotes me as saying that I am your champion? There is nothing.

 

P2p has been resolved by the SC, and I agree with that decision based on the court's opinion. Many good people argued for it and I have no regrets.

 

The law states that any person can bring the defense in any prosecution in any case involving marijuana. Do you dispute that?

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[bobandtorey]

Wiil you produce something, anything, that quotes me as saying that I am your champion? There is nothing.

 

P2p has been resolved by the SC, and I agree with that decision based on the court's opinion. Many good people argued for it.

 it did work for Mr.Terry Provost

[GregS]

And the Law also say's you can't be arrested if you have a card doesn't it ?

I have not disputed and will not dispute that bob.

Edited July 28, 2013 by GregS

[GregS]

Even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.

 

Dr. Bob

Spoken from experience.

[bobandtorey]

I have not disputed and will not dispute that bob.

The AD is what we all have if you end up in a court room i can agree to that

[Dr. Bob]

so let me get this straight, Your waiting on cav's opinion and dr. Bob's opinion before you stop this nonsense?

 

Do you think you are the only one with heart problems and sugar diabetes? dude your not alone, why cant people look at the law and know what it means, some say it was a badly written law from the beginning, I say its getting worse, because people keep pushing things that are not legal,  You seem to be alot smarter than you are acting greg, Why dont you just leave it alone, start gathering donations so you can afford to hire some one to go to the capital and get parts of the law that the coa and sc ruled ilegal on us?

 

no offense to any of you, dr. bob, cav or you greg. move on and forward, dont try and get us to go back any more, I cant even beleive we are talking about a non registered c.g,,now tell my how that happens, are we talking about the guys out on the corner who have com weed in one pocket and crack in the other for sale?

 

Non sense this whole thread and the last one is nothing but total nonsense!

 

 

Peace

Jim

I agree.  Done with this.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

so let me get this straight, Your waiting on cav's opinion and dr. Bob's opinion before you stop this nonsense?

 

Do you think you are the only one with heart problems and sugar diabetes? dude your not alone, why cant people look at the law and know what it means, some say it was a badly written law from the beginning, I say its getting worse, because people keep pushing things that are not legal,  You seem to be alot smarter than you are acting greg, Why dont you just leave it alone, start gathering donations so you can afford to hire some one to go to the capital and get parts of the law that the coa and sc ruled ilegal on us?

 

no offense to any of you, dr. bob, cav or you greg. move on and forward, dont try and get us to go back any more, I cant even beleive we are talking about a non registered c.g,,now tell my how that happens, are we talking about the guys out on the corner who have com weed in one pocket and crack in the other for sale?

 

Non sense this whole thread and the last one is nothing but total nonsense!

 

 

Peace

Jim

Fuk Townsend's opinion. Gathering donations has not worked. Period. It will not work. Period. My intention is to operate a fund with incentives beyond feelgood theater to contribute. I aim to get results, and not lip service.