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Meeting Of The New Conditions Panel 8-6-13


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The definition of insanity is doing the same thing you've done before and expecting a different result.

Wow, that is a pretty telling post.

 

We have a new panel.  One that clearly approved PTSD by THEIR rules with the 7 votes they wanted.  It is off to a good start.  How they handle it will determine how much additional time and effort I and many others are willing to put in to this again.

 

Dr. Bob

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Parkinsons , to the best of my understanding, does NOT require a court order to be submitted. For some reason it just simply was NOT submitted at all to the new panel. Please correct me if I am wrong on this. But the fact that some things that were voted down by the PREVIOUS panel are now considered on its final vote with this panel yet things that were APPROVED by the PREVIOUS panel now have to start fresh tells me that this will NOT be a fair process. The State did not count on anything being passed with the first panel and as soon as it was they pulled the plug. Sickens me. It is all rigged and if it does not go the States way then they will re stack the deck. I know that they will explain that the no vote on asthma from the previous panel was not binding so it can count but what about the yes votes for the PTSD from the previous panel. In fact PTSD passed the final vote in the previous panel yet has to start  from scratch then why doesnt the others start from scratch?

 

Edited to add I am sure that if something that got a no vote by the first panel was to have gotten a yes vote by this panel then that would not be considered the final vote. It would be said that it was the first NON BINDING vote. It was only considered the final vote yesterday because it was a no vote and that is what the state wants this panel to do. Shoot everything down.

I would ask you to calm down and take a deep breath... many of your concerns have answers, and not all answers are going to make everyone happy.  There is no conspiracy against medical mj on this panel in my opinion.  Yes, there are people opposed and people in favor.  But the vast majority lie in the middle.  This is a talented group just like the first group.  I am not willing to burn it down just to make a point that I am unhappy.  And truthfully I am not unhappy, I am bouyed that PTSD the first "psychological" condition has take some baby steps forward.  And I realize even if it passes our panel, Mr. Arwood can still knock it down.  But it was huge the Dr. Davis the chief medical examiner in the state and our chair, voted in favor.

 

I fully expect in the next weeks to come there will be further dialogue on how things went on first votes and final votes.  But to go nuclear over it could scuttle PTSD, and that I really do not wish to do either.  Autism was hurt by the fear of giving mmj to children.  Asthma was hurt by the fears about smoking.  Both were critically injured in April when NO FREAKIN PEOPLE came and testified.  Gersh was about it, and he did a fine job, but the people who put in the petitions did not show up.  That alone was a devastating blow.

 

I do not know what happened on Parkinson's and have not been told anything as of today.  I suspect the original petitioner did not refile or step up again.  The information on a court order info was NOT in re Parkinson's, it was in regard to Asthma and Autism....

 

But Oz, I feel the glass is half full... not half empty.  I am trying to make points, follow decorum, learn as much as possible, and vote with integrity.  This has been contentious and tough to even get off the ground, and considering the false start, I am hopeful that the participants will do their heartfelt duty on the panel.  And truthfully, in the end, that is all we can ask for....

Edited by Hayduke
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I would ask you to calm down and take a deep breath... many of your concerns have answers, and not all answers are going to make everyone happy.  There is no conspiracy against medical mj on this panel in my opinion.  Yes, there are people opposed and people in favor.  But the vast majority lie in the middle.  This is a talented group just like the first group.  I am not willing to burn it down just to make a point that I am unhappy.  And truthfully I am not unhappy, I am bouyed that PTSD the first "psychological" condition has take some baby steps forward.  And I realize even if it passes our panel, Mr. Arwood can still knock it down.  But it was huge the Dr. Davis the chief medical examiner in the state and our chair, voted in favor.

 

I fully expect in the next weeks to come there will be further dialogue on how things went on first votes and final votes.  But to go nuclear over it could scuttle PTSD, and that I really do not wish to do either.  Autism was hurt by the fear of giving mmj to children.  Asthma was hurt by the fears about smoking.  Both were critically injured in April when NO FREAKIN PEOPLE came and testified.  Gersh was about it, and he did a fine job, but the people who put in the petitions did not show up.  That alone was a devastating blow.

 

I do not know what happened on Parkinson's and have not been told anything as of today.  I suspect the original petitioner did not refile or step up again.  The information on a court order info was NOT in re Parkinson's, it was in regard to Asthma and Autism....

 

But Oz, I feel the glass is half full... not half empty.  I am trying to make points, follow decorum, learn as much as possible, and vote with integrity.  This has been contentious and tough to even get off the ground, and considering the false start, I am hopeful that the participants will do their heartfelt duty on the panel.  And truthfully, in the end, that is all we can ask for....

 

 

Thanx for responding Hayduke I think you know by now that i do appreciate it.......

 

You are correct about not wanting to derail what HOPEFULLY is on the right path........ I get that and agree........

 

The point I was venting about and it is obvious that the State is trying to stack the deck......  They have done many things to work against implementing, honoring and even doing what the law has tasked of them. Including doing what the politicians also reiterated what they should be doing. They STILL do not do it. Forgive me if I am a little skeptical on their motivations or the reasons they have made so many "mistakes". Last I heard was that the panel STILL was not seated correctly. Is this true?

 

I truly do not wish to burn the panel down or the process........ I thank all of you for the work you are doing and along with many patients appreciate it to no end............

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You can defend them all you like Hay, but the fact still remains that there was not one MEDICAL reason to NOT pass Asthma. I watched the video several times and those panel members all poo pooed on it for stupid and unfounded reasons. You were the only one who voted yes. The rest all took the pound of flesh. You can testify about real medical facts about asthma and cannabis for a million hours and not even come close to refuting their vote reasons because they didn't have real medical reasons. To place blame on anyone who didn't waste their time testifiying is just 'muddling about'. The panel IS the problem. They take their own direction and if you don't have a chest full of war medals forget about it. I wish PTSD the best. The panel does not have the correct instructions to follow. They need to read the law a few times over and learn what the people of Michigan wanted.

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Hayduke I still cannot understand how some conditions that were voted on had that vote count as a final vote, with the first vote coming from the previous incorrectly seated panel, Yet other conditions this vote was considered the first vote since they could NOT ACCEPT the previous vote from the panel THAT WAS INCORRECTLY SEATED? 

 

Does that make sense to ANYONE?

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I fully expect in the next weeks to come there will be further dialogue on how things went on first votes and final votes.  But to go nuclear over it could scuttle PTSD, and that I really do not wish to do either.  Autism was hurt by the fear of giving mmj to children.  Asthma was hurt by the fears about smoking.  Both were critically injured in April when NO FREAKIN PEOPLE came and testified.  Gersh was about it, and he did a fine job, but the people who put in the petitions did not show up.  That alone was a devastating blow.

 

i agree we should give the panel a chance.

if you think suing the government will be faster, look at the lawsuit against the state for not seating the panel in the first place, it went for 3 years with nothing happening.

 

but hayduke, i must disagree with your assertion that the panel requires the petitioner to appear in person. what information would the panel gleam that wasnt already in the petition? why does the panel require sick patients to make the trek to lansing? werent there also panel meetings that got rescheduled ? 

 

let me ask a different question.

you want people who smoke medical marijuana to make 1.5 hour drives to lansing? just to say that marijuana works for their conditions? i wasnt aware that the law required the panel to have at least 3 in-person testimonies per condition. why is this unwritten rule being used? maybe these rules should be made public so the petitioners know whether or not to waste their time submitting petitions.

 

its a mindset that needs to be fixed at the panel.

also there should be some organization of patients in lansing to help be there for support in-person.

because we cant all make the trek to lansing, be it accessibility or work related excuses.

 

does anyone have video of the new panel ? :)

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PTSD went back to square one, so the vote is only the first "non binding vote".

 

Unfortunately LARA deemed both asthma and autism to be on the final vote, as they considered the original panel's non binding 1st vote in April to still be good.  That has not been explained to me in a way that I can understand at this point.  Insomnia failed in it's first non binding vote.

 

Parkinson's which cruised through the first time, apparently was not resubmitted.  I have a few questions on that as well.

 

Now in the next 60 days there will be a formal public input meeting.  Then after that, but within sixty days of the public hearing, we will take final votes on PTSD and Insomnia.

 

Unless LARA reverses course asthma and autism are dead issues that can only be brought back via the courts (and I have no idea how that would work).

 

 

TPain......

 

I do not think it is rumor......... It came from a member of the panel.......

Edited by ozzrokk
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You can defend them all you like Hay, but the fact still remains that there was not one MEDICAL reason to NOT pass Asthma. I watched the video several times and those panel members all poo pooed on it for stupid and unfounded reasons. You were the only one who voted yes. The rest all took the pound of flesh. You can testify about real medical facts about asthma and cannabis for a million hours and not even come close to refuting their vote reasons because they didn't have real medical reasons. To place blame on anyone who didn't waste their time testifiying is just 'muddling about'. The panel IS the problem. They take their own direction and if you don't have a chest full of war medals forget about it. I wish PTSD the best. The panel does not have the correct instructions to follow. They need to read the law a few times over and learn what the people of Michigan wanted.

Resto, the fact you did not appear at any of the hearings to testify on your own petition really hurt.  Additionally the vast majority of the panel felt the submission was not strong enough.

 

The medical reason to not pass asthma is they are afraid it will be smoked.  Now I brought up they still give vicodan to patients even though they can be crushed and snorted to no avail.

 

The panel is not the problem, I totally disagree with that one.....

 

Sorry

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Resto, the fact you did not appear at any of the hearings to testify on your own petition really hurt.  Additionally the vast majority of the panel felt the submission was not strong enough.

 

The medical reason to not pass asthma is they are afraid it will be smoked.  Now I brought up they still give vicodan to patients even though they can be crushed and snorted to no avail.

 

The panel is not the problem, I totally disagree with that one.....

 

Sorry

I included information that vaporizing eliminates smoking. I even included a study covering that angle. Did they read it? One person speaking at the table said they hadn't even gotten a copy of the petition. Excuse me for not appearing in front of folks that couldn't even take the time to read the petition before they voted. This whole process is without order or direction. A doctor giving the reason, "I'd rather write it for something else"? He's assuming that every asthma patient has something else or he will make something up? It's totally off the rails.

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I included information that vaporizing eliminates smoking. I even included a study covering that angle. Did they read it? One person speaking at the table said they hadn't even gotten a copy of the petition. Excuse me for not appearing in front of folks that couldn't even take the time to read the petition before they voted. This whole process is without order or direction. A doctor giving the reason, "I'd rather write it for something else"? He's assuming that every asthma patient has something else or he will make something up? It's totally off the rails.

no Resto, you are full of beans.  You expect everyone to do your bidding and feel that your judgement on what is adequate is enough....  that is so freakin ridiculous I won't say more.

 

You failed your own petition by not attending and making the case in person.  The panel is all volunteers and they give their time freely.

 

Your haughty attacks are really off the mark.

 

everyone on the panel got everything on cdr's.  That they were unaware is not my problem or responsibilty.  But let me tell ya straight, man:  If I did not know you, and consider your petition justified, just based upon the lack of weight to your submission, I too would have voted NO.

 

Stop blaming others until you get yourself into the freakin ring and participate.  Because I gotta tell you, your hands off superiority horse manure is really not helping you make your case.

Edited by Hayduke
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Hayduke I still cannot understand how some conditions that were voted on had that vote count as a final vote, with the first vote coming from the previous incorrectly seated panel, Yet other conditions this vote was considered the first vote since they could NOT ACCEPT the previous vote from the panel THAT WAS INCORRECTLY SEATED? 

 

Does that make sense to ANYONE?

It is troubling and I am looking for an explanation as well

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i agree we should give the panel a chance.

if you think suing the government will be faster, look at the lawsuit against the state for not seating the panel in the first place, it went for 3 years with nothing happening.

 

but hayduke, i must disagree with your assertion that the panel requires the petitioner to appear in person. what information would the panel gleam that wasnt already in the petition? why does the panel require sick patients to make the trek to lansing? werent there also panel meetings that got rescheduled ? 

 

let me ask a different question.

you want people who smoke medical marijuana to make 1.5 hour drives to lansing? just to say that marijuana works for their conditions? i wasnt aware that the law required the panel to have at least 3 in-person testimonies per condition. why is this unwritten rule being used? maybe these rules should be made public so the petitioners know whether or not to waste their time submitting petitions.

 

its a mindset that needs to be fixed at the panel.

also there should be some organization of patients in lansing to help be there for support in-person.

because we cant all make the trek to lansing, be it accessibility or work related excuses.

 

does anyone have video of the new panel ? :)

no video was shot other than by tv stations....

 

I have MS and refrain from smoking because I too drive an hour and a half.  Truthfully I do expect people to get straight and attend.  No one is required to testify in person, but if you don't what does that say?  There is no unwritten rules requiring 3 testimony.   I don't get paid, I take a vacation day to go up, and I darn well expect others to do the same.

 

The room was packed and 10 or more people in the public spoke.  Despite mixed results the room was electric and the testimony compelling and soul bearing.

 

So don't attend, no skin off my back, but if you don't.... then complaints will be very hard to be taken seriously.  Sorry for that, but it is the way the ball rolls.

 

It is their game, their arena, their rules.... now you can say you will not participate, that is in fact legitimate.  But you will not prevail on anything with that strategy.  I think PTSD has cleared some hurdles because of Johnny Evans and all the powerful in person testimony.  People moving people with their narrative.  Very Very heavy.....

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Resto, the fact you did not appear at any of the hearings to testify on your own petition really hurt.  Additionally the vast majority of the panel felt the submission was not strong enough.

 

The medical reason to not pass asthma is they are afraid it will be smoked.  Now I brought up they still give vicodan to patients even though they can be crushed and snorted to no avail.

 

The panel is not the problem, I totally disagree with that one.....

 

Sorry

 

no Resto, you are full of beans.  You expect everyone to do your bidding and feel that your judgement on what is adequate is enough....  that is so freakin ridiculous I won't say more.

 

You failed your own petition by not attending and making the case in person.  The panel is all volunteers and they give their time freely.

 

Your haughty attacks are really off the mark.

 

everyone on the panel got everything on cdr's.  That they were unaware is not my problem or responsibilty.  But let me tell ya straight, man:  If I did not know you, and consider your petition justified, just based upon the lack of weight to your submission, I too would have voted NO.

 

Stop blaming others until you get yourself into the freakin ring and participate.  Because I gotta tell you, your hands off superiority horse manure is really not helping you make your case.

The fact remains that I did the more than any other person in Michigan to help Asthma patients that would like to have a choice to treat their affliction legally with cannabis. No one else lifted a finger other than your yes vote. Maybe you missed it but not once have I included you in the criticism of the panel. Your yes vote was appreciated, but it's far outweighed by your undo beaurocratic back side kissing defending the crazy ship of fools. It probably makes for a nicer dinner party but it skews the heck out of those that want things fair.

Edited by Restorium2
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The fact remains that I did the more than any other person in Michigan to help Asthma patients that would like to have a choice to treat their affliction legally with cannabis. No one else lifted a finger other than your yes vote. Maybe you missed it but not once have I included you in the criticism of the panel. Your yes vote was appreciated, but it's far outweighed by your undo beaucratic back side kissing defending the crazy ship of fools. It probably makes for a nicer dinner party but it skews the heck out of those that what things fair.

well bud, then all I can say is you did not do enough, the bar was higher than your jumping power.  It takes many people to do really heavy lifting, perhaps you need to suck it up and be more diplomatic and get some help.  Oh yeah I forgot, you do not work well with others because they are so stupid compared to your vast intellect....

 

As for criticism of the panel, or me, I don't take any of it personally... except the personal attacks.  My defense of the panel members has to do with their willingness to take their time and participate, and their general willingness to listen and be persuaded.

 

so i am a beaurocratci arse kisser, eh?  Yeah sure man, oh that hurts (not).   Well at least I am not a bitter man who is self righteous and my own biggest enemy, like you are.

 

You blew it dude by not participating.  That is the bottom line.

Edited by Hayduke
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well bud, then all I can say is you did not do enough, the bar was higher than your jumping power.  It takes many people to do really heavy lifting, perhaps you need to suck it up and be more diplomatic and get some help.  Oh yeah I forgot, you do not work well with others because they are so stupid compared to your vast intellect....

 

As for criticism of the panel, or me, I don't take any of it personally... except the personal attacks.  My defense of the panel members has to do with their willingness to take their time and participate, and their general willingness to listen and be persuaded.

 

so i am a beaurocratci arse kisser, eh?  Yeah sure man, oh that hurts (not).   Well at least I am not a bitter man who is self righteous and my own biggest enemy, like you are.

 

You blew it dude by not participating.  That is the bottom line.

If they are going to vote NO all day long who the heck are they helping? The poor soles that need protecting from the devil weed? I have no thanks to give the nay sayers. Giving of their time to mess with us. They should have stayed home.

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I gotta appreciate what you are doing HD. You are a good boy to have in our corner.

 

These issues have to be sorted out. It appears it is the republitards breaking the system so they can point at it and say that it does not work in their crass attempt to junk it altogether. That same approach happens with multitudes of issues.

 

We know well enough that cheap shots from the cheap seats from blowhards that haven't the foggiest notion of the real side of negotiation or the balls or brains to work it are apparently to be expected from within. Keep the faith brother. I admire your integrity.

Edited by GregS
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Resto, seven out of nine voted yes on PTSD, including the chief medical examiner.  He is the head doctor in Michigan.  It is important to not act like the process is illegitimate.  In fact it is the only game in town and we all should pray it is successful.  I spend ridiculous amounts of time on this and consider it of utmost importance that decorum is respected.  By micromanaging each step from afar, while reasonable for sure, is unfortunately a different view than when you are at the table.  I care about each condition and have in fact voted in favor of each condition that has come before the panel.  But when one fails I do not consider the process corrupt or even flawed.  I think that we need to see it played out.  If it ends up failing, so be it, we gave it our best.  But to throw in the towel early is not my strategy.  I am going to continue to try and understand all the panel members and explain my position and concerns.  We have in fact made quite a bit of progress.  Is it fast enough and to our satisfaction 100%, well, no, but it is better than last year, and the year before that.

 

I apologize if that is not enough.  It is all I have to work with, and I am proud of our progress.

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If they are going to vote NO all day long who the heck are they helping? The poor soles that need protecting from the devil weed? I have no thanks to give the nay sayers. Giving of their time to mess with us. They should have stayed home.

 

 

 

 

Resto, wake up.  They DID NOT vote NO all day long!  And it is funny that the issue that people showed up for including the person that submitted (John Evans) condition passed.  Own it bro.  And grow the F up already!  You have had the opportunity to participate arguably more than 99.9% of patients in this state, but due to YOUR OWN personal hang ups you are incapable.   You are an intelligent man, I say that genuinely, but you need to check your ego at the door...

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steve arwood voted no all day long. we'll see what he does next round.

time to settle down guys. pick your battles.

resubmit your petitions.

 

athsma coughing/gasping is a severe chronic debilitating muscle spasm.

 

ptsd would be nice to be approved.

too bad about insomnia and autism.

 

if the autistic patient is hitting himself or banging head into walls, that sounds like a muscle spasm too.

i'm no doctor. maybe it isnt. maybe you couldnt find two doctors to sign off on muscle spasms.

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I gotta appreciate what you are doing HD. You are a good boy to have in our corner.

 

These issues have to be sorted out. It appears it is the republitards breaking the system so they can point at it and say that it does not work in their crass attempt to junk it altogether. That same approach happens with multitudes of issues.

 

We know well enough that cheap shots from the cheap seats from blowhards that haven't the foggiest notion of the real side of negotiation or the balls or brains to work it are apparently to be expected from within. Keep the faith brother. I admire your integrity.

Right On Bro Right On

 

a u g 2 4

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