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The Entourage: One Of The Many Missing Pieces To The Puzzle


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(Update 3/12/14)   Many of you are well aware of the importance of the role of terpenes, flavonoids,  and nonpsychoactive cannabinoids in terms of the effects and therapeutic benefits of cannabis. S

Here are some important papers covering the 'entourage effect': Russo EB (2011). Taming THC: potential cannabis synergy and phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects. British Journal of Pharmacolo

can read that book here, or download if you have an account. 900 pages 11mb http://www.scribd.com/doc/61792728/Handbook-of-Essential-Oils-Science-Technology-and-Applications

It's great info! 

 

I have that pdf on essential oils and it's a good resource.

 

Flavanoids and terpenes can both be extracted via steam distillation. I'm envisioning taking material that wouldn't be used for cannabinoid extraction, using steam distillation to capture the essential oils, then adding that back to extracted cannabinoids. A traditional steam distillation setup would required for larger runs, but this might just work for smaller runs. The ice cone, ice water, and whatever protective material is around the collection vessel, could potentially keep the temperature of the oil cool enough.

 

I'm going to send them an email asking if they have GC/MS comparisons of oils from their product compared to conventional steam distillation methods.  

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I realize I kinda distracted off of terpenes a touch there.... but hey,... it is good info anyway. :-)

 

After reading that, all of my cancer cells died of boredom.  LOL

 

It's probably real good info.   I'll just have to digest that one later.

 

PB's Oil brought me here.

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Thanks for joining the conversation.

 

The terpene profile would be a scientifically measured amount of the terpenes in a sample of cannabis, or essential oil for that matter. There are likely too many to test for them all, but if we could start with some of the ones listed by Russo, that would be a great start. This will help to eliminate much of the confusion and guesswork that is sure to be associated with subjective identification methods like the charts listed here.   

 

I don't believe that consuming cannabis will prevent or put malaria into remission. Best to stay out of the jungle. 

 

I'm not sure that I follow your last question. It sounds to me as if you've identified nerolidol in one of your strains via sense of smell, and possibly one of the parents is believed to have been high in limonene. Is that correct?    

 

The stem and stalk smell of orange creamsicle.  It smells and tastes of oranges when smoked.

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PB's Oil brought me here.

 

Do you still use topical delivery methods? If so, do you make your own?

 

 

 

For example, I have a super heavy nerolidol strain with limonene recessed into the genetics, and it's anything but sedative, it's a super soaring sativa.  So, while nerolidol might be sedative, with genetic expression and recombination through selective breeding, I wonder how this all applies, and I'm wondering on what genetic level that switches are being recombined and switched on and off.  Maybe it's something from the lemon that's making it soar?

 

I'm not sure that I follow your last question. It sounds to me as if you've identified nerolidol in one of your strains via sense of smell, and possibly one of the parents is believed to have been high in limonene. Is that correct?    

>>>> 

The stem and stalk smell of orange creamsicle.  It smells and tastes of oranges when smoked.

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Edited by in vivo
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I think I follow you now. It seems to me that you're associating the nerolidol with orange and noticing that it's listed as a sedative, but the strain is anything but. I know that one of the tables on the first page lists nerolidol and provides a picture of an orange, but d-limonene is the main terpene in every essential oil from citrus I've ever seen. There are a number of terpenes with a citrus scent.  I haven't found an essential oil that has nerolidol in the top ten main constituents, and I've been looking.

 

It's impossible to know for certain without quantitative analysis, but a "soaring effect" could be a number variables. It's possible that the cannabinoid profile is one that increases CB1 activation. The more antagonists (blockers) like CBD will result in less CB1 activation. On the flip side THCV is a euphoriant and is a CB1 agonist (activator). There are terpenes that are stimulants. The terpenes that aren't there, and are known to be sedatives (like b-myrcene), are also likely to weigh into the equation.

 

I've been experimenting with essential oils to try and gain familiarity with the effects associated with a number of terpenes. I'm not quite ready to report, but I'll post about them eventually.

Edited by in vivo
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Do you still use topical delivery methods? If so, do you make your own?

 

 

Nope.  My grandmother benefited from it a lot.  But as you know, his oil has other medical properties to it, outside of the cannabis.  I'm not sure what made the difference, the cannabis or other medicinal stuff.

 

She's very anti-cannabis.  So while it worked wonders, she hasn't used it in a couple of years.  In 30 days it mostly repaired what 2 months of IV treatments couldn't touch.  I got tired of fighting the issue when it takes effort and cash to get the oil, and I don't want to waste it, so I let it go.

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I think I follow you now. It seems to me that you're associating the nerolidol with orange and noticing that it's listed as a sedative, but the strain is anything but. I know that one of the tables on the first page lists nerolidol and provides a picture of an orange, but d-limonene is the main terpene in every essential oil from citrus I've ever seen. There are a number of terpenes with a citrus scent.  I haven't found an essential oil that has nerolidol in the top ten main constituents, and I've been looking.

 

It's impossible to know for certain without quantitative analysis, but a "soaring effect" could be a number variables. It's possible that the cannabinoid profile is one that increases CB1 activation. The more antagonists (blockers) like CBD will result in less CB1 activation. On the flip side THCV is a euphoriant and is a CB1 agonist (activator). There are terpenes that are stimulants. The terpenes that aren't there, and are known to be sedatives (like b-myrcene), are also likely to weigh into the equation.

 

I've been experimenting with essential oils to try and gain familiarity with the effects associated with a number of terpenes. I'm not quite ready to report, but I'll post about them eventually.

 

Hmmm... Very interesting.

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I hear ya. Each individual should have the right to dictate their health and wellness regiment. 

 

It would be ideal to know which compounds are playing the largest roles in particular treatments. That uncertainty seems like one of the biggest drawbacks to not developing products using one compound at a time. My dilemma is that as soon as I recognize a way to potentially increase therapeutic value through the use of additional compounds, I feel obligated to try and do so. Especially compounds that are safe and naturally found in cannabis. In my mind, a patient is only concerned with the treatment being effective and safe. The alternative to attempting to do all that you can therapeutically, would be to tell a person that while there may be a safe way to increase the therapeutic value, that they're going to have to wait for my own personal research. That's not gonna happen.    

 

It'll be interesting to have patients try topical recipes without the cannabis extract. I plan to do this (with those that are willing) once it's been determined that they find the topical recipe with the cannabis extract to be effective. 

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I received a response from OilExTech. On their website they provide a number of studies comparing microwave steam distillation to conventional steam distillation. One study shows a loss of monoterpenes, while another shows an increase. None of these studies were using the same apparatus. They do claim to be currently working on GC/MS comparisons with their product. The first will be on juniper berry. I'm currently using juniper berry essential oil and have GC/MS from my supplier, so it will be interesting to compare when OilExTech releases their results.      

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Thank you very much for sharing this compiled data/knowledge!  I printed two of the lists/charts to share at last nights AMCS meeting. (Identifying terpenes through smell and the list of which CBDs/Terpenes may assist in specific ailments)   Participants were very excited to receive the information and look forward to learning more.  It also sparked great discussion amongst the group.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to do this.

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I'm really happy to hear that, and I appreciate you spreading this information. I hope that the awareness, of the significance, of terpenes, will eventually lead to having the ability to test for them here in MI. I think that our ability to choose and develop strains, that are best suited to our needs, will expand exponentially at that point. 

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I received a response from OilExTech. On their website they provide a number of studies comparing microwave steam distillation to conventional steam distillation. One study shows a loss of monoterpenes, while another shows an increase. None of these studies were using the same apparatus. They do claim to be currently working on GC/MS comparisons with their product. The first will be on juniper berry. I'm currently using juniper berry essential oil and have GC/MS from my supplier, so it will be interesting to compare when OilExTech releases their results.      

 

It's all Star Trek to me.  But I find it interesting.

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Not meant as a end all be all, but here's a nice visual reference:

 

Halent.Chart.lg.jpg?width=737&height=510

 

http://halent.com/Resources/Halent%20Chart.pdf

First of all, thank you for presenting this, it is interesting and I'm trying very hard to digest it. 

 

Secondly, the link comes up as not found, 404 error, can you fix it?  Thanks

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I am impressed.  :bow:

 

it is so much to digest...

 

I pinned this topic because this information is very valuable and I thought it would be best if it was easy to find and access.

 

even as we merely scratch the surface we are already collectively making great strides toward unlocking all the potential this miraculous plant has to offer.

 

thank you all for contributing to our cannabis communities knowledge base. :goodjob: 

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I am impressed.  :bow:

 

it is so much to digest...

 

I pinned this topic because this information is very valuable and I thought it would be best if it was easy to find and access.

 

even as we merely scratch the surface we are already collectively making great strides toward unlocking all the potential this miraculous plant has to offer.

 

thank you all for contributing to our cannabis communities knowledge base. :goodjob: 

 

Please excuse my ignorance, but, what is pinned and how do I find/use it easily?

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no worries herb...

 

the only dumb question is the one not asked...

 

pinned is when the topic will always appear on the first page in the forums section.  rather than mixed in by date of new content it will remain on the top of the first page for anyone to read even if there is no new additional comments.

on some sites you may see it called "sticky"

 

it saves readers from having to sort through many pages before finding valuable information.

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I'm glad you found it!

 

Do me a solid and ask about the terpene profile of the strains from the source that's testing cannabinoids. Tell them that's going to provide you more insight into what will work best for your needs.

 

I cleaned this thread up so that it deals solely with terpenes. I consider cannabinoids other than THC as part of "the entourage", but I feel it's best to keep this thread focused on one topic.  

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The only levels they post are for the THC,CBDs and CBNs. Remember this is a dispensary,and I am trying to learn the medical benefits of MMJ. I need to heal myself,Drs are making everything worse,and there is not one I can talk to about it. Besides,what would they know? Nothing! I have to check my own RXs if they are new to make sure they don't interact with the ones I already take.  I cannot post anything more on this public forum because my health is a private issue to me.   J

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