Handgun Purchase Permit?

[Shadeleaf]

I went to the sheriff's department to get a purchase permit to register s couple handguns I have inherited. First I had to fill out this information form before they would give me the purchase permit. On it one of the questions is are you a MMM card holder. I left it blank at first but the lady seen it was not answered and told me I had to answer it or I would be denied. I told her that is medical information and is between my doctor and myself and none of their business. Again she said I would be denied. So I circled yes. Then she proceeds to ask me if I have the card with me and I said yes. She then asked for the card and I gave it to her. She then proceeds to make photo copies of it and then enters in some information on the computer. She comes back and tells me I am denied because I have a card. I then ask her to show me the law where it says I cannot have one....no reply. I asked her who I can appeal it to and she gives me a brochure for the ATF.

 

Now I am dam sure there is a part in our law that states we will not be discriminated against. Well, this sure felt like discrimination to me. Now I am not a first time handgun owner...I have several registered to me and they know it.

 

My questions are if I let my patient status expire and I am just a caregiver for another patient will they give me the permit. Has anyone else had this problem.

 

I am the only surviving heir for these guns. I learned how to shoot pistols with one of them as a kid. Now I have heard stores will not even sell patients ammunition. Any replies will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[CaveatLector]

In what county did this transpire?  Do you have proof of denial?

[solabeirtan]

ShadeLeaf sorry for your troubles. I'm sure you recognize your mistake there.

 

jic: Being truthful to a clerk who is charged with interpreting legal policy for the County/Administration/Politicians. This is not her job!

 

Please let her do her job which is issuing permits and as you stated initialy and correctly it is confidential medical information and so the only truthful thing  to say is,

 

" No maam, I am not a Marihuana Patient, sorry "   You might be a patient who legally uses Cannabis to alleviate your symptoms/conditions. But that doesnt seem relative to legally registering antique firearms. She just wants to do her job... try to help her out! She obviously is misinformed... 

[Shadeleaf]

Proof...I am sure they still have my request on file. Are you a attorney? If you are I will tell you the county in a pm. Unfortunately I was the first section 8 test case for this county. After a very, very long time, I eventually won. The police stoled my meds and lied about everything they could. They know me very well! But I would be willing to do it again and get a recording of it if that would help!!!! solabeirtan...my mistake, again, was trusting law enforcement to FOLLOW the law and be the PUBLIC SERVANTS WE, again WE pay them to be. What is the constitution toilet paper now. What the hell did I serve for! So your saying I should lie to law enforcement on a possible federal document when we all know they can and will get any information on us. Are you an attorney? Was you one of the first three I fired two plus years ago? Just kidding, with you, I did fire three though. So I do not have to give up my patient status to make use of my constitutional rights as a US citizen. Are other counties doing this information form to get a purchase permit? Then the information form is not federal?

Edited August 21, 2013 by Shadeleaf

[CedarSpringsCG]

Just because the form isn't federal, that doesn't mean the information isn't shared with the feds...  Hmm, I let my card lapse, and even though I have already sent in for a new card, maybe I should go get a permit now while I am "not a card holder" at the moment... 

 

darn that sucks.  I wish we were like oregon where they are upholding the right to bear arms.

[sho]

The State's are NOT sharing the info with the Fed's. You will not be denied a purchase if you are a cardholder, for that sole reason alone. This is info from an FFL, who is MM friendly personally, but not professionally.

 

If you check the "Yes" box you are denied, but if you are NOT an illegal user of any drugs, and check No, they are not cross-referencing purchases with whatever list they "may" have of State registered patients. This gets murky with federal law and what is the definition of an illegal user.

 

Do they have to be currently using, or could they quit and no longer be considered illegal? Does mere registration with the program create an illegal user, or does consumption of marijuana make one illegal?

[motorcitymeds]

This is just wrong that there is anything on there regarding ones personal choices in life.  This is why legalization is the only route.

[BirdHunter]

This is settled law.... They are wrong.

 

See Willis v winters for more info

[CaveatLector]

This is settled law.... They are wrong.

 

See Willis v winters for more info

If I recall correctly the US Sup Ct. denied cert in this case.  That does not create legal precedent.  So it is settled law in Oregon where the case originated in state court.  That has no affect on any other state.

 

.

 

Do they have to be currently using, or could they quit and no longer be considered illegal? Does mere registration with the program create an illegal user, or does consumption of marijuana make one illegal?

That is my issue with this whole thing.  Obtaining and possessing a medical marijuana card is not proof of use or possession of marijuana.  I don't know that you could even that it is more likely than not that you will use or possess.  I have had scripts for vicodin and other meds from docs after accidents that I have retained but never filled.  Does that mean I was possessing the meds or using them?  Of course not.

[Shadeleaf]

Just because the form isn't federal, that doesn't mean the information isn't shared with the feds...  Hmm, I let my card lapse, and even though I have already sent in for a new card, maybe I should go get a permit now while I am "not a card holder" at the moment... 

 

darn that sucks.  I wish we were like oregon where they are upholding the right to bear arms.

 

LOL. Great idea...it never entered my mind.   Yes, Michigan could take a page or two from Oregons book!!

 

 

The State's are NOT sharing the info with the Fed's. You will not be denied a purchase if you are a cardholder, for that sole reason alone. This is info from an FFL, who is MM friendly personally, but not professionally.

 

If you check the "Yes" box you are denied, but if you are NOT an illegal user of any drugs, and check No, they are not cross-referencing purchases with whatever list they "may" have of State registered patients. This gets murky with federal law and what is the definition of an illegal user.

 

Do they have to be currently using, or could they quit and no longer be considered illegal? Does mere registration with the program create an illegal user, or does consumption of marijuana make one illegal?

 

That is what I needed to hear, thanks.

 

This is just wrong that there is anything on there regarding ones personal choices in life.  This is why legalization is the only route.

 

Amen to that!!

 

 

That is my issue with this whole thing.  Obtaining and possessing a medical marijuana card is not proof of use or possession of marijuana.  I don't know that you could even that it is more likely than not that you will use or possess.  I have had scripts for vicodin and other meds from docs after accidents that I have retained but never filled.  Does that mean I was possessing the meds or using them?  Of course not.

 

That is one thing that is wrong with it, the question did not even specify if you are a patient or caregiver. Just do you have a MMM card.

[MrShpongle]

Sho, that is interesting info.  Here's another scenario I'd like you to comment on:

 

Patient got her CPL in December 2008, then her MMMA card in summer 2009.  She has renewed her MMMA card every year.  It is now time to renew her CPL card, and nowhere on the state CPL form does it ask about "illegal drug use".  Are the county gun boards contacting LARA to see if applicants have a medical marijuana card?  The application does include this language: "I give authority to the concealed weapon licensing board to access any record, including medical and mental health records, pertaining to my qualifications to receive a Concealed Pistol License."  She submitted her renewal paperwork a few weeks ago, but is having anxiety that could not only deny her CPL, but convince the prosecuting attorney to bring some sort of BS charges against her.

 

Thoughts?

[sho]

Hmm... This is why I'd like the CPL thing to be done away with and a constitutional carry law pass in Michigan (at least the U.P. haha).

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

Sec B3 mentions the Federal law. I wonder if the Gun Board has authority to access LARA's info?

Sec 4A of the MMA also leads me to think the County can't deny you ...
 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act

 

​Merely being registered with the program is certainly no crime, or IMO grounds for denial.

[Celliach]

Hmm... This is why I'd like the CPL thing to be done away with and a constitutional carry law pass in Michigan (at least the U.P. haha).

 

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

 

Sec B3 mentions the Federal law. I wonder if the Gun Board has authority to access LARA's info?

 

Sec 4A of the MMA also leads me to think the County can't deny you ...

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act

 

​Merely being registered with the program is certainly no crime, or IMO grounds for denial.

 

Where are you in the UP?  I'm in Norway, near Iron Mountain.

[Chauncy Gardner]

Hmm... This is why I'd like the CPL thing to be done away with and a constitutional carry law pass in Michigan (at least the U.P. haha).

 

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

 

Sec B3 mentions the Federal law. I wonder if the Gun Board has authority to access LARA's info?

 

Sec 4A of the MMA also leads me to think the County can't deny you ...

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act

 

​Merely being registered with the program is certainly no crime, or IMO grounds for denial.

 

The only info LARA can give out is to verify whether or not a card is valid. They do this by using the card's number. So, in order for someone to check with LARA they need to have the number of the card. They can't get this info w/o the card. Ergo, if you don't show the card there is no way to validate it.

[Shadeleaf]

Hmm... This is why I'd like the CPL thing to be done away with and a constitutional carry law pass in Michigan (at least the U.P. haha).

 

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

 

Sec B3 mentions the Federal law. I wonder if the Gun Board has authority to access LARA's info?

 

Sec 4A of the MMA also leads me to think the County can't deny you ...

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act

 

​Merely being registered with the program is certainly no crime, or IMO grounds for denial.

 

I like your thinking sho! Then I am moving to the U.P..  I am up there enough anyways just my wife is not willing to move some place that gets more snow than Northern Michigan. That's the section I am refering to. I have been out of the loop for quite a while. Yes, it should not be grounds for denial.

 

I made a mistake earlier about the flyer. I was a little upset to be still dealing with all the resistance some people are doing and never really looked at it. It is a NCIS phamplet for appealing a firearm transfer denial. There is a section at the bottom that says: To be provided by the FFL NTN:_______ then in the space after she wrote "Medical Marijuana Card Holder". I open it up and the first sentance of the first paragraph says:

 

"If you have been denied by a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) from receiving a firearm because of a record in the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), you may appeal the denial decision."

 

but, I was denied because I am a card holder???

[pergamum362]

I checked no. Never had a problem.

[pergamum362]

But if someone wants to be the test case. My wallet is around.

[Shadeleaf]

Pass... Sorry sho, I missed the seeing the CPL question post. I thought you was talking to me, lol.

[sho]

Off topic, but there is a group of people in the ideas stage of the "State of Superior"... along with some Northern Colorado counties trying to form their own state as well. Check into it, I'm on board.

 

Back on topic... I'll try applying for my CCW in a month or two. Need to do some serious legal research before I try, and get an attorney retained to help. If you want to split a retainer pergamum, it's $1000 min. for LaCosse Law out of Menominee, MI. I've worked with Beth in the past and she's a bad-azz complain.

Edited August 22, 2013 by sho

[Dr. Bob]

First of all, purchase permits are not required any more.  They were local forms anyhow.

 

I ran into the same issue in Clare, MI.  I had two handguns, one I purchased at a store with a standard FFL registration form (the national form) which asked the question that went something like 'are you using and/or addicted to illegal drugs?'

 

Then I had a captured Italian pistol my step dad brought back from the war and gave to me.  I brought both to the Clare PD to register them. 

 

They took the Model 92 I bought with the paperwork, all done.

They took the Model 1934 (the captured gun) and told me I had to 'sell it to myself' and handed me a form.  The question was 'do you have a medical marijuana card'.

 

I pointed out that this was not a question on the national form and didn't feel I needed to answer- got the same 'then you will be denied'.  'What if I have a card and say yes?'- again, you will be denied until you give it up.  So I checked 'no' and got my pistol.

 

Next week, I had a pistol shipped to me to Jays.  Guess which form they use?  The NATIONAL one without the card question.

 

So my friend, if you want to avoid the problem, find an FFL dealer that uses the National form, ship it or sell it to them, and let them sell it back to you.  Show up at the police with the national form and you are done.  And registered.  You need to look at the form before filling it out.  If you don't like the form, find someone that uses the one you do like.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, I told the cop it was B S.  his response was to indicate he didn't care one way or the other, just fill out the form Doc.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Dr. Bob

[sho]

Bob is right about no more purchase permits for sales from FFL dealers. However, PRIVATE sales still require a purchase permit from your local PD -- as do inheriting/gifting of firearms.

 

No biggie just adding it in there.

[pergamum362]

Sho, nothings going to happen. Ive already done it.

[Dr. Bob]

It was explained to me that it wasn't a purchase permit after April, it was just the form they had for the transfer.  It was possible to obtain the paperwork legally by other means.

[pergamum362]

So i dont need a purchase permit anymore if i go and buy say a new 1911 tomorrow? Anyone familiar with mi open carry law?

[sho]

No purchase permit if you go buy a "new" 1911. Still need it if you buy a "new to me" 1911 from your uncle, or a guy out of the local paper.

 

www.miopencarry.org is the best place to start. It's legal, all good, just don't get into a car.