Outdoor Grow Is Entrapment

[t-pain]

theres been multiple successful section 8 cases. (dont have links to them , theres a few threads in the forum, komorn successfully did a case with some pounds of wet mmj...)

no sec8 cases have made it to the supreme court yet.

 

as always, never talk to cops without a lawyer.

but if you tell the knock and talk cops to get a warrant, they will be back with a warrant and arrest you.

so whats a person to do? talk and prosecute yourself or dont talk and get arrested?

[Kingdiamond]

Bob, isn't there a statue of limitations in michigan law?

Not once a warrant has been issued to my knowledge.

[t-pain]

Some of the information here seems to be based on laws before April 1, 2013

 

You do not have to separate plants in rooms of 12, that never was part of the law.

 

your statement kind of mixes up the law.

if you have the cards for 24 plants, you do not need to seperate them into 12-plant cages.

if you only have a card for 12 plants, you cannot have 'access, dominion or posession' over 24 plants.

 

supreme court people vs blysma ruled that multiple caregivers cant have access to the whole grow.

please do not spread incorrect information.

even the michigan state police builliten says this:

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1645_4607_57129---,00.html

 

Legal Update No. 103 (06/13) 

 

Section 4 of the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act does not provide a registered primary caregiver with immunity from arrest, prosecution, or penalty when growing marihuana collectively with other registered primary caregivers and registered qualifying patients;

 

 

You only need a roof if a neighbor can see your plants from the highest point on his land, like on top of his roof. If you grow in a remote part of the UP and have no neighbors for miles, and as long as it can not be seen from a public road, you do not need a fence roof over your garden.

 

you are mixing the law up.

the plants cannot be visible from another property. it still requires a top.

its possible to use shade cloth or other material that lets light in but blocks view of plants. plus it keeps helocopters away.

the law says:

 

are grown within a stationary structure that is enclosed on all sides, except for the base,

people have contacted the legislator responsible for the change and the legislator said 'all sides' means a top.

now if you want to take a chance without a top, thats up to you.

but not having a top is foolish and telling other people it doesnt need a top is just wrong.

[t-pain]

It appears that there is no longer any evidence of a crime in this case. Don't the police need evidence? I sincerely hope that just their word isn't sufficient to charge anyone with a crime.

 

'gee, the body is gone, guess we cant charge him with murder' ...

[motoguzzi13]

well that's what the officers told me , they said that my plants had to be separate from hers 2 cages and that I had to have a key for mine and she had to have a key for hers. We weren't care givers just 2 people with cards growing in the same garden also he said I couldn't use chicken wire that I had to use something thicker . I have 2 foot fence surrounding the garden of that wire about as thick as a coat hanger green squares, he hesitantly said Ok but was telling me they preferred chain link. They had t-shirts on that said cannabis enforcement team on the chest pocket with some logo and police on the front and back carrying side arms. Isn't this the first year for legal outdoor grow?? because I still think it was a setup to come later for the over the 2.5 law and im wondering how many busts we will see at harvest time. I think I was saved by the "mature plants" language in the law because what does that mean you can have a 100 plants as long as they are not usable? is there any definition AS yo what is considered a mature plant and if it isn't mature are you allowed to have it?   see  shades of gray and interpretation

[ozzrokk]

1 Did they take pictures? If they did not take pictures of your plants then it would appear that they have no evidence to charge you on that situation.

 

2 Are you on a list now? Maybe, you can never be sure about that. Probably not though and that is of course just my opinion.

 

3 Did you possibly overreact? Probably so but who can blame anyone for overreacting the way some of the leo and prosecutors are doing things. I can understand the paranoia and lack of trust with the system. I would not put anything past them at this point.

 

4 I would think that you would have a case for a section 8 had they revisited you at harvest time but who wants to have to rely on that? eh? But unfortunatly to do such a thing and have a years supply on hand that is where you have to be section 8. I know it sucks and there should be better protection than that but truth be told if they would honor the section 8 and/or allow a jury to hear those cases , then I thing a section 8 would work fine in such situations.

 

So sorry to hear that this had to happen and go down the way it did. It does sound like they were being decent and allowing you time to get into compliance. Which if that is the case then that is a step forward. But like I said who can trust them these days? eh? I hope things work out for you and your girl.

[ozzrokk]

T shirts that said cannabis enforcement team on them? Guess thats what we paid our extra 10 plus million dollars for eh? They could have at least let you have one as you paid for them.

[motoguzzi13]

no pictures but like someone said it may have one from the helicopters. I haven't heard anything back as of yet they might have let it go but I know how they work out here they take their time and usually its a wake call because they are so cowardly they have bust in with young guns and take down a 57 year old man with cancer. I  found someone to take my dog because im afraid they will shoot him when it goes down if I get through all this im putting my property on the market and moving to Colorado. The stress is more than its worth and now I have to go back on addicting medication which was what I didn't want to do

[ozzrokk]

no pictures but like someone said it may have one from the helicopters. I haven't heard anything back as of yet they might have let it go but I know how they work out here they take their time and usually its a wake call because they are so cowardly they have bust in with young guns and take down a 57 year old man with cancer. I  found someone to take my dog because im afraid they will shoot him when it goes down if I get through all this im putting my property on the market and moving to Colorado. The stress is more than its worth and now I have to go back on addicting medication which was what I didn't want to do

 

 

This really sucks for you bro...... I really hope things work out in the end for you and you can continue to use the REAL MEDICINE. I honestly dont think you have to worry about them trying to charge you but do not blame you for protecting your dog and girl. It has happened before and they would not hesitate to shoot a dog if the situation arose so smart move in my opinion.

 

Edited to add that Michigan has been chasing people out of this state for many years now and looks like they may have chased another great soul away. Way to go MICHIGAN.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ozzrokk

[motoguzzi13]

Thanks I appreciate all the advice and support it has helped I also suffer from bi-polar dis order and depression and my doctor was happy that I could go off those meds and I was doing real good. I have hep b and chronic inflammation which I take meloxicam but the pain I can take down with marijuana a lot better than with Vicoden because they make me sick to my stomach we had a 420 club here but they are all in jail now and there is no way to get it except on the black market and I aint doing that I appreciate all the good people who are fighting to make this world open it eyes and see that it is a medication and like my doctor said feeling good when your feeling bad should not be a crime, if I am sick and I smoke weed to feel better who am I hurting?  and why do they care so much?  I never will understand this world

[t-pain]

it was legal to grow outside since the law was enacted.

just that a lot of people were prosecuted due to kangaroo courts.

 

king and redden (seperate cases) have been in court for 1500 days and counting. both had ... inadequate outdoor fencing.

you can read king's supreme court opinion if you want. he won his right to a section 8 defense.

which it looks like the judge is trying to deny, after first dismissing the case in 2009. guess the judge changed his mind since then?

 

redden was growing with his partner , same situation as you i think. neither were caregivers, but both were patients.

 

the real messed up thing is that they waste all this time and courts and cops and raids for what?

$200 in fence materials?

seriously? flower everyone involved (except the patients of course).

 

not to party poop, i think colorado has similar rules on keeping plants fenced/secure. if you are a med patient.

 

still, dont freak out. lots of people got off on sec 8s. even when they had warrants and were arrested months later.

[t-pain]

seriously. it would cost the police less to buy a fence+locks and secure it into the ground for each patient.

 

instead of helicopter flyover

6+ cops investigating

police reports

prosecutor reports

search warrants

arrest warrants

arraignments

jury trial

 

way cheaper.

[t-pain]

I think I was saved by the "mature plants" language in the law because what does that mean you can have a 100 plants as long as they are not usable? is there any definition AS yo what is considered a mature plant and if it isn't mature are you allowed to have it?   see  shades of gray and interpretation

 

you are very good at reading the law. the definition of usable marihuana and marihuana are different in the MMMA.

the courts have not ruled on how much unusable marihuana you are allowed.

some judges think you arent sec4 protected from having any unusable marihuana.

 

people v carruthers recently hit this problem i think. it hasnt hit supreme court yet.

[ozzrokk]

Thanks I appreciate all the advice and support it has helped I also suffer from bi-polar dis order and depression and my doctor was happy that I could go off those meds and I was doing real good. I have hep b and chronic inflammation which I take meloxicam but the pain I can take down with marijuana a lot better than with Vicoden because they make me sick to my stomach we had a 420 club here but they are all in jail now and there is no way to get it except on the black market and I aint doing that I appreciate all the good people who are fighting to make this world open it eyes and see that it is a medication and like my doctor said feeling good when your feeling bad should not be a crime, if I am sick and I smoke weed to feel better who am I hurting?  and why do they care so much?  I never will understand this world

 

You are more than welcome my friend and the last part of your post...............

 

"like my doctor said feeling good when your feeling bad should not be a crime, if I am sick and I smoke weed to feel better who am I hurting?  and why do they care so much?  I never will understand this world"

 

Priceless my friend..... priceless...... I don't understand it either brother.

 

 

it was legal to grow outside since the law was enacted.

just that a lot of people were prosecuted due to kangaroo courts.

 

 

the real messed up thing is that they waste all this time and courts and cops and raids for what?

$200 in fence materials?

seriously? flower everyone involved (except the patients of course).

 

not to party poop, i think colorado has similar rules on keeping plants fenced/secure. if you are a med patient.

 

Correct on the law always allowing outdoor grows

 

Right 200 dollars in fencing and for what. And then the punishment does not justify all the money, man hours and resources spent.

 

Colorado may have similar rules but are their police using it unjustly and crookedly against it's citizens that is the real question.

 

 

seriously. it would cost the police less to buy a fence+locks and secure it into the ground for each patient.

 

instead of helicopter flyover

6+ cops investigating

police reports

prosecutor reports

search warrants

arrest warrants

arraignments

jury trial

 

way cheaper.

 

And what actually do something that makes sense? Can't happen........

 

 

people v carruthers recently hit this problem i think. it hasnt hit supreme court yet.

 

 

But it WILL

 

hopefully now the Supreme Court will realize the extent that the lower courts and court of appeal will go to in pushing their crooked, twisted agenda.......

Edited August 23, 2013 by ozzrokk

[peacefulfield]

This story is why as much as I want to grow in the great outdoors I just won't as of yet. If it's not Leo harassing you it's thieves, plant diseases, animals, or bugs to worry about. This law is written so poorly, Most licensed caregivers are more paranoid than the black market dealers or growers. I feel your pain from your medicine loss and its just a shame that Leo can't just leave us alone and invest their time & money with real crime & criminals. This is called the land of the free yet we have more non-violent people in prison than any country in the world!?!

 

   My Father has  2  50' x 12' hoop houses but they are both by a gravel road & if I relocate them what really is a good spot? Too far away I can't keep my eye on them, or get water or electricity to them easily.. Too close and you could see the facility from the road or from other property's . But again this is my fathers property & strangely he was all for growing in his greenhouse near the road with 2 layers of plastic on it.. So you could not see in it & cage fencing inside. BUT I just know that won't fly. Also if its sunny & 70 outside it's almost 90 inside with no fans and plastic on.

 

 So I had a idea of building a locked 4'x 8' x 5'- 6' tall window greenhouse with an exhaust fan & fresh air intake etc. Currently he has a 4'x4'x 5' tall attached to the house that has perfect cover & will 100% comply with the laws.... But again this is my fathers house & we just can't agree on anything. I have explained the laws more than once & he just don't get it.  So I guess its back to paying Consumers Energy instead of the free intense light I could utilize outside.

[sho]

Again, which county was this in?

[hardworkplanning]

Thats why this act should of been written to protect the patients and caregivers by saying that they could possess however much marijuana all 12 plants could produce in the place they are grown.....I think the intent of being allowed to only possess 2.5 oz's was meant for when your transporting it.....the authors of the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act should have worded it better to protect the people....now more people are being persecuted because of a poorly written law!!!!.....Colorado got it right......your allowed to possess however much each plant produces at home but can only possess 1 oz in public...........IT's common sense but Law Enforcement don't care!!!!

[mibrains]

you are very good at reading the law. the definition of usable marihuana and marihuana are different in the MMMA.

the courts have not ruled on how much unusable marihuana you are allowed.

some judges think you arent sec4 protected from having any unusable marihuana.

 

people v carruthers recently hit this problem i think. it hasnt hit supreme court yet.

 

 

excellent point T-pain..

 

and after the COA decision I stopped using a screen to dry my cannabis and began to hang the plant whole. while it is drying I still count it as a plant.  it isn't until I finish trim it, clip it off the stalk and then jar it that it falls into the "usable marijuana" category and must weigh less than 2.5 oz's.

 

if a person was to grow only their allotted number of plants in a greenhouse and then upon harvest hang them whole and continue to count them as a plant (not planting or cracking new seeds until the following season) they should be able to comply with section 4 of the act.

 

the issues arise when you try to commercialize the operation and trim, and dry it all at once.

 

people have always argued that to harvest an outdoor or greenhouse style grow you must stagger your harvest... that means you could do it and grow your allotted number of plants and then once done hang them to dry and use / finish trim / jar to cure "as needed" so long as its in increments under 2.5 ounces and then as the winter progresses and your plants are utilized you would need to crack seeds for new spring plantings and replace the used plants with fresh new ones....

[Kriya]

Moto.. Any word?

[Herb Cannabis]

excellent point T-pain..

 

and after the COA decision I stopped using a screen to dry my cannabis and began to hang the plant whole. while it is drying I still count it as a plant.  it isn't until I finish trim it, clip it off the stalk and then jar it that it falls into the "usable marijuana" category and must weigh less than 2.5 oz's.

 

if a person was to grow only their allotted number of plants in a greenhouse and then upon harvest hang them whole and continue to count them as a plant (not planting or cracking new seeds until the following season) they should be able to comply with section 4 of the act.

 

the issues arise when you try to commercialize the operation and trim, and dry it all at once.

 

people have always argued that to harvest an outdoor or greenhouse style grow you must stagger your harvest... that means you could do it and grow your allotted number of plants and then once done hang them to dry and use / finish trim / jar to cure "as needed" so long as its in increments under 2.5 ounces and then as the winter progresses and your plants are utilized you would need to crack seeds for new spring plantings and replace the used plants with fresh new ones....

 

When your crop is dry, it doesn't matter if it is hanging on the plant or in a jar, they WILL count that weight against you.  And, don't make the mistake of believing you have unusable product just because it isn't cured, all it has to be is dry.

 

Section 3.

 

(k) "Usable marihuana" means the dried leaves and flowers of the marihuana plant, and any mixture or preparation thereof, but does not include the seeds, stalks, and roots of the plant.

[mibrains]

excellent point Herb.. no such thing as unusable cannabis according to the act...

 

also how can we define dry?

 

would it be a matter of moisture content?

 

and what specific moisture content is considered to be "dry"?

 

no such thing as defined by the MMMA.. since they cannot weigh and include the stalk you must leave the cannabis attached to the stalk until it is "dry"

 

you alone can determine if it qualifies as dry.. the moment you remove it from the stalk it must be weighed and then counted as "dry usable cannabis" no matter what "cure" or "moisture content" it has.

 

LEO cannot remove the stalks for you... it is tampering with evidence.  LEO cannot count the stalks as weight they are specifically omitted.  the only way to judge them is by the definition you as a caregiver allot for them which is processed plant material (ie. dry usable) or as a plant. 

 

there is nothing in between that is protected by section 4 of the MMMAct

 

so...

 

it is a plant until you make it not a plant.  no matter who tries to describe "dry" there is no such thing according to the act..  it is a "state of being" not a "measurement of moisture content."

 

the act says to qualify for section 4 it has to be-

A)  dry usable bud and leaves excluding specifically roots and stalks

B)  a plant. 

does not say the status of the plant as living or hanging to dry.

does not say the specific qualities to quantify material as "dry usable"

 

therefore we must assume cannabis to be protected under section 4 must be self described as either A or B and then a person must remain compliant with the  guidelines for each.. 12 / 2.5

Edited September 6, 2013 by mibrains

[beourbud]

Right On Mibrains

We have been experimenting with alternative grow methods for , um....years.

Due to the unpredictable weather and short season here in Mi , gorilla grows are a gamble for quality, however if the season is good the quality can be as good as the best the disp have to offer.

Greenhouse trees offer a very good option.

Our Trees produce no less than 10oz.

We do not harvest the whole plant nor do we kill the plant.

The flowers are harvested in compliance with the 2.5 oz limit.

The Tree is then put into hibernation till end of winter when it is kicked back into Veg.

Minimal heating, minimal water......very little energy used/wasted.

All Organic.......@ $20 to grow...

Want pics...come to the Hemp Center. Big Rapids

Cracks me up, all those high dollar ops , and if you have to advertise...you quality is lacking.

Edited September 21, 2013 by beourbud

[motoguzzi13]

So far all has been quiet . I haven't been raided YET but others all through the county have been paid visits and some have been arrested for "not secure enough facility"  One guy had everything confiscated because the lock on the door to the basement was not on when they showed up as he was down there when they came and they said he should have locked it before he answered the door they took all his lights and plants. Im telling you the cops here are going to do what they want and Laws be damned. maybe because I burned everything they have no case is what im thinking. Ill feel better when harvest season is over. I had to go back on prednisone and it sucks. I have all kinds of pain now because I am too paranoid(another one of my illnesses) to even have pot on the premises and I have a card. I have friends in Montana telling me that its mello there. im definitely thinking about it. Who wants to be the "test case" Redden wrote to me and he went through hell. I think Michigan will suffer immensely before they will do what's right because of all the propaganda that has been drilled into the heads of law enforcement and the courts. Sorry to say it but we are always behind the country when it comes to progress, its our heritage

 

 

“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Edited September 12, 2013 by motoguzzi13

[sho]

Just holding my tongue...

Edited September 12, 2013 by sho

[motoguzzi13]

Helicopter came a few days ago and I thought he was going to land. They are out heavy now. I think im Ok now haven't heard a word. I probably will start my indoor grow again but with strict adherence to whatever laws the cops make up. meaning  plants locked and secured multiple stage growing and never having more than 2.5 ounces in "usable marajanna. Im still a little shaky but I think if they had a case they would have come for me by now. Im sure im on a hit list so if im pulled over , I can expect an illegal search  and harassment. I need my medicine this prednisone and other crap sucks and doesn't work as good. No 420 clubs or other way out here