Some Teaparty Terrorists

[Celliach]

From what I have seen the prices are pretty good for the insurance plans. At least compared to what I had to pay when I had my business.

 

My disagreement comes when they say I am FORCED to buy it.

 

You are not forced to buy, you can opt out, but you have to pay a tax for opting out.  That tax is to cover your expenses in case you end up in the emergency room so everyone else doesn't have to pay your bill.

 

What insurance plan are you on now?

[outsideinthecold]

Thanks for the civil reply but the explanation of an original misstatement of fact does change the original twisting of facts to suit one's own opinions.

 

Likewise, Harry Reid and Barack Obama are just as culpable as Boehner for the shutdown. To suggest only one person is at fault is simply not true.

 

The House of Representatives is controlled by the Republicans as a result of the 2012 election. Maybe things will change in 2014. Maybe we'll see Hilary in 2016 and both houses of congress controlled by Democrats including a 60 seat majority in the Senate.

 

But for now that is not the case.

 

It is pretty apparent the overall trend for America is on a downward trajectory from an economic perspective.

 

The estimated national wealth is currently $240,000 per US citizen. Twelve years ago it was $300,000.

 

More people, less resources, not a pretty future regardless of the political landscape.

 

Had a couple friends from Canada visit last week. David was my best friend in High School. We were both drafted about the same time. He went to Canada. I went to Viet Nam.

 

David's wife is a nurse in a large Toronto hospital. I am sorry some here weren't party to her observations.

 

Regardless of whether a single payer system is in place or not, Canadians have learned no economy is large enough to fund all the medical technology available.

[cristinew]

Here are some people that complain about government spending ,,,,

 

Several of the House Republicans who voted Thursday for a bill that slashed billions of dollars from the food stamp program personally received large farm subsidies for family farms. The bill cutting the food stamp program narrowly passed on a mostly party line 217 to 210 vote.

During the food stamp debate, GOP Rep. Stephen Fincher, who received thousands in farm subsidies, responded to a Democratic Congressman during the debate over the cuts by quoting the bible, saying “the one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

Fincher himself has received his own large share of government money. From 1999 to 2012, Stephen & Lynn Fincher Farms received $3,483,824 in agriculture subsidies. Last year he took in $70,574 alone.

Another Republican congresswoman who voted to make cuts to the food stamp program was Rep. Vicky Hartzler of Missouri. Her farm received more than $800,000 in Department of Agriculture subsidies from 1995-2012. In 2001, her farm received $135,482 in subsidies. 

Rep. Kristi Noem of South Dakota, who also voted to make cuts to the program, was a partner in Racota Valley Ranch, her family’s farm and previously had nearly a 17% stake through 2008. The farm received $3.4 million in subsidies from 1995-2012. The Environmental Working Group, which analyzes subsidy data, says the “estimated amount of subsidies attributed to Rep. Noem from 1995-2012 is $503,751.”

Rep. Marlin Stutzman, a Republican Rep. from Indiana also received his fair share of government subsidies. He personally took in nearly $200,000 for the farm he co-owns with his father.

According to the New York Times Stutzman said Thursday the bill cutting food stamps by $39 billion over the next ten years “eliminates loopholes, ensures work requirements, and puts us on a fiscally responsible path.”

President Obama threatened to veto the bill Wednesday.

 

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[Celliach]

The Canadian system might not be perfect, but it's better than no health coverage at all, which is what 30 million Americans had before the ACA.  Personally, I would rather go to a Canadian hospital than not go to any hospital.

[+Malamute]

How is Harry Reid as responsible?  He actually put the House bill up for a vote on the floor. It failed.

 

It is known that if Boehner just put the "clean CR" up for a vote it would pass. If done on a secret vote, it would pass EASILY.

 

Thus, the only problem here is John Boehner.

 

The democrats already agreed to lower the budget to the levels of Paul Ryans budget(+20billion), just with more intelligiently placed spending cuts.

 

*shrug*

 

I dunno

[Celliach]

Boehner is refusing to bring it up because the Senate version will pass the House with a majority vote as enough Republicans have already publicly said they would vote for it.  If the Senate version passes, the shutdown will be over.  

[jointedone]

   

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Edited October 16, 2013 by jointedone

[Wild Bill]

You are not forced to buy, you can opt out, but you have to pay a tax for opting out.  That tax is to cover your expenses in case you end up in the emergency room so everyone else doesn't have to pay your bill.

 

What insurance plan are you on now?

 

Universal health coverage is definitely needed in this country, this plan is just poorly thought out and executed.

 

I am currently fortunate enough to have insurance through my wife's employer.

 

When I was self employed my health insurance started out at a reasonable rate. It was a PPO and covered almost everything. The rates soon started to rise every month without fail. I would drop coverage and the price would go down for the remainder of that month and then it would go up even higher the next month.

 

Eventually all it covered was basic hospitalization and the monthly premium was over $700 dollars, it was more than my house payment. Finally I canceled the policy. If something catastrophic were to happen (as it did this spring) my only option would have been bankruptcy.

 

If I was in the same position now I would definitely take advantage of the government plan.

 

I still fail to see why we can't have a national health care plan like every other civilized country in the world.

 

For those who aren't aware "Obamacare" is based on the 2006 Massachusetts Health Care plan pushed through by, guess who, Mitt Romney!

 

Editorial: Massachusetts the cradle of ObamaCare

 

Lessons For The Obamacare Rollout, Courtesy Of Massachusetts

 

They can say what they want but I still get the feeling most of the detractors just can't get their heads around the fact that the president is black and would be against anything with his name attached. If he mailed them all a gold watch at his personal expense they would more than likely complain.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Wild Bill

[jointedone]

Edited October 16, 2013 by jointedone

[+Malamute]

Doesn't really matter to me anymore,I'll be dead. Just don't want my Hubs to go bankrupt because of my illness. And WB? Good quote.

 

 

That is something I understand jointedone. that is fear I can understand.  That is a tragic and sometimes deadly concept of our healthcare system I could not agree with you more and can sympathize with you completely.

 

That is why I support Obamacare. That is why I truly support single payer.  Families should never go bankrupt just because someone int he family got sick, had a tragic accident, has natal health problems, has a stroke, has cancer, or for some, merely want to pay for the birth of a baby.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148

 

Medical Bills Are the Biggest Cause of US Bankruptcies: Study

 

Bankruptcies resulting from unpaid medical bills will affect nearly 2 million people this year—making health care the No. 1 cause of such filings, and outpacing bankruptcies due to credit-card bills or unpaid mortgages, according to new data. And even having health insurance doesn't buffer consumers against financial hardship.

The findings are from NerdWallet Health, a division of the price-comparison website. It analyzed data from the U.S. Census, Centers for Disease Control, the federal court system and the Commonwealth Fund, a private foundation that promotes access, quality and efficiency in the health-care system.

"A lot of Americans are struggling with medical bills," said NerdWallet Health Vice President Christina LaMontagne.

NerdWallet estimates that households containing 1.7 million people will file for bankruptcy protection this year.

Even outside of bankruptcy, about 56 million adults—more than 20 percent of the population between the ages of 19 and 64—will still struggle with health-care-related bills this year, according to NerdWallet Health.

And if you think only Americans without health insurance face financial troubles, think again. NerdWallet estimates nearly 10 million adults with year-round health-insurance coverage will still accumulate medical bills that they can't pay off this year.

High-deductible insurance plans requiring consumers to pay more out-of-pocket costs are a challenge for many households.

"With an average American family bringing home $50,000 in income, a high medical bill and a high-deductible insurance plan can quickly become something they are unable to pay," LaMontagne said. "If you have an out-of-pocket maximum of $5,000 or $10,000, that's really tough," he said.

 

 Read the rest at link. Very informative.

 

 

 So when you say 'fear',... I understand.

 

 THAT is exactly why Obamacare was needed.  It is NOT the answer, but it moves the pendulum to reduce those occurrences by large percentages, and is the first step in creating a medical system in the United States that does not drive 2 million people into bankruptcy ever year. 

 

 And those are just bankruptcies. That doesn't include the terminally in medical debt people slaving away at work while sick to make minimum payments to some arsehole collection agency to try to pay off their medical debt.  Those numbers are much much larger than 2 million. MUCH.

 

 We are one of the very very very few(almost only) advanced country in the world that allows that to happen.  It is disgusting.  It is unacceptable in "my America". :-) (that is actually a tea party jab there)

 

 

 Moving on to your previous post in response to me:

 

 

Can you EVER have a discussion without calling people names?  Who the heck do you think you are? Ever think that not all of us are leeches sucking the taxes out of the people that are still working? You really are a mean spirited person...the typical know it all lib. Why didn't you say anything about the fact that your "party" is the one that supported slavery, killed other Americans because of it,formed the KKK and supports killing  un-born babies? "Ever notice that the people that are pro abortion are alive?"  RR said that. And what deprives MY freedom is SICKNESS,not my political views. You will live thru it too. And I will laugh,just like BO laughs at you foolish sheeple. Your wifes $$ is coming from MY HUSBANDS paycheck. We have to PAY for people like you,while I have to suffer. Gee. How compassionate of you. A full ostomy pouch should be coming your way. Your nastiness is appalling as you are.

 

 

 When you have to go back a couple hundred years to rip on me because I support Obamacare, I can fairly say, you have lost the discussion.  I was actually surprised Hitler was not also mentioned. Hehehe... ;-)

 

 But that is ok,.... you have given me the glimpse of what one of your real fears is. An uneasiness that should not even be being felt by an American citizen.  I get it.

 

 What I don't like or get is the misinformation you were peddling, the bumper sticker Fox News Koch brother flat out lies that was told.  I can debate with you about the ACA and its flaws, its shortcomings, how to improve it and how to use it as a vehicle to keep people like yourself and millions of others from feeling the fear of looming bankruptcy simply because you are sick or injured. I can understand the loss of income when you are sick and how that alone can make daily life a struggle for your next meal.... all while you are sick already.  It is heartless and that is not what a "Christian nation" should ever stand for.  Ya know, feed and clothe the poor; comfort the sick, look out for your brother, love your mothers and all that good stuff.  We can do all of that together.  I would gladly do it with you or for you.  That is what makes us strong. That is what makes good people and good society.

 

 But I will not sit idly by and listen to trope that is simply not true and factual as possible. 

 

 I support Obamacare because I want to help people like you.  I do not want you to have to live in fear of your health or your families future that may be hindered due to your health.  It is wrong as a country to put millions and millions of people into those circumstances.  Simply Immoral.

 

 

 Now as far as your personal attacks and the wishing of horrible health related issues upon me and my family,... Frell you.  Totally pee off lady.  That is ridiculous.  Karma is gonna kick your arse for that crapola.  I can only wish your desires are returned ten fold upon yourself. 

 

 Live well jointedone.

 

p.s. Your husband is not paying for my ol ladies insurance,... don't make yourself feel so superior, because you simply aren't and I would be happy to send you the one thousandth of a penny we may owe you from your taxes you .....( I will hold my tongue from here)

[outsideinthecold]

What a mess. If those of us here who share at least one common human element can't put aside the name calling and work together to some solution why should those running our dysfunctional government do any better.

 

Putting aside personalities, prejudices and self-interest is apparently difficult for most here including myself. I don't believe I've wished anyone well and if I have offended anyone or called anyone names I am truly sorry.

 

This is not the Democrat's and not the Republican's fault. It's not John Boehner's or Barack Obama's fault. It's not those in need or those who feel their security threatened.

 

This is everyone's fault, yours, mine and ours.

Edited October 8, 2013 by outsideinthecold

[Celliach]

I have to disagree.  This is John Boehner's fault.  He has a bill on his desk that was passed by the senate and would pass in the House, but he refuses to bring it up for a vote.  One person is holding the government hostage right now by not allowing congress the ability to vote and do their job.

[jointedone]

     

Edited October 16, 2013 by jointedone

[Celliach]

OK, OK.  As a moderator I have to step in and ask that people please refrain from any personal insults.  You can discuss the subject without name-calling, personal bashing, playing the victim card or " the wishing of horrible health related issues". (Still not sure how that turned into " "horrible death" on your family,")   If it continues, we'll just lock the thread.

[outsideinthecold]

I worked with a guy who had anger issues. Management sent him to anger management school. Anger management school teaches the reason you get mad at someone is they aren't thinking what you think they should.

 

I think the school had it right. It is no one's fault if they aren't doing what you think they should do. It is no one's fault if they don't act the way you think they should.

 

Someone mentioned all the spending on the wars and suggested if we hadn't ventured into those adventures we'd save 800 billion dollars and then asked if that would help.

 

Good question. Sadly the answer is not much. I've posted some numbers already in this thread that pretty well sum up our nation's dilemma. So many want so much and our government has promised so much to so many that even though we are world's eighth richest country by per-capita income we are too poor to deliver everything to everybody.

 

I've also pointed out the decline in overall wealth this nation has seen in the past fifteen years. If you think today's problems are bad just watch and see what is coming in the future.

 

I don't envy anyone. I don't pity anyone. I simply wish everyone well. It is ironic how many people that makes angry. My apologizes to anyone who takes offense for that.

Edited October 8, 2013 by outsideinthecold

[Letterhead954]

"Is The Conflict Between Us Irreconsilable?"

 

http://townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/2013/10/08/is-the-conflict-between-us-irreconcilable-n1719069/page/full

[OG Fire Beaster]

How is Harry Reid as responsible?  He actually put the House bill up for a vote on the floor. It failed.

 

It is known that if Boehner just put the "clean CR" up for a vote it would pass. If done on a secret vote, it would pass EASILY.

 

Thus, the only problem here is John Boehner.

 

The democrats already agreed to lower the budget to the levels of Paul Ryans budget(+20billion), just with more intelligiently placed spending cuts.

 

*shrug*

 

I dunno

 

This was too much to pass on... I stay away from here these days because the dis-info is out of control but...

 

Look at the house of representative voting record.

 

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/index.asp

 

Multiple votes have passed to fund the parts of the government that the House of Representatives wants funded. Harry Reid has refused to let them be voted on in the Senate. The House has no obligation to fund the ACA. It is their Constitutional authority and responsibility to choose what is funded. If they choose not to fund the ACA that is their choice. Harry Reid is choosing to not allow funding to proceed on anything else unless the ACA is funded. He is throwing a temper tantrum and taking his ball and going home.

 

Are you going to deny the votes that passed in the House and that have not been voted on in the Senate?

 

Talk about parroting propaganda...

 

The Constitution is clear that Congress funds the government. Reid is the one holding the purse hostage because he will not fund anything(not essential, which most everything is) until he gets his baby funded.

 

Wow blatant lying. If you want every Individual vote posted just ask and I will do so.

[jointedone]

Edited October 16, 2013 by jointedone

[+Malamute]

This was too much to pass on... I stay away from here these days because the dis-info is out of control but...

 

Look at the house of representative voting record.

 

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/index.asp

 

Multiple votes have passed to fund the parts of the government that the House of Representatives wants funded. Harry Reid has refused to let them be voted on in the Senate. The House has no obligation to fund the ACA. It is their Constitutional authority and responsibility to choose what is funded. If they choose not to fund the ACA that is their choice. Harry Reid is choosing to not allow funding to proceed on anything else unless the ACA is funded. He is throwing a temper tantrum and taking his ball and going home.

 

Are you going to deny the votes that passed in the House and that have not been voted on in the Senate?

 

Talk about parroting propaganda...

 

The Constitution is clear that Congress funds the government. Reid is the one holding the purse hostage because he will not fund anything(not essential, which most everything is) until he gets his baby funded.

 

Wow blatant lying. If you want every Individual vote posted just ask and I will do so.

 

 

 So the republicans are willing to fund 7 of the 2000ish programs int he government?

 

Some funding bill.  That is not a budget but grandstanding on issues that are making them look so bad. Open the War memorial, but leave the other parks and memorials closed etc.

 

Harry Reid has allowed votes on the actual full budget resolutions, including the ones defunding Obamacare. They failed.

[+Malamute]

Let me be more specific. Partial funding for the FAA so planes can still fly in and out of the United States.  Partial funding for the FDA so we don't have a epidemic of food poisoning. Partial funding for Head start to funding levels that the republicans cut in May already.

 

 Heckuva job Brownie. ;-)

 

You do realize that is just silly right? and a stunt?

[OG Fire Beaster]

You do realize that most of the government is still operating right?

 

You do realize that the House has passed far more than the few items you listed right?

 

You do realize many of the essential functions of government are still operating right?

 

It is grandstanding in both chambers. The difference is the House has approved funding, the Senate refuses to vote on most of it, for no other reason than the house wont send them a bill to fund the ACA.

 

EDIT: punctuation

Edited October 8, 2013 by OG Fire Beaster

[+Malamute]

Be specific. What else has the house passed in single program funding instead of voting on an actual continuing budget resolution that is sitting on Boehners desk waiting for a vote?

 

 And yes,... the budget issue is about discretionary spending and non essential programs, like the VA and soldiers paychecks. Those are non essential.

[OG Fire Beaster]

You see the difference right? The house will fund individual items that both chamber should agree on. The Senate will not fund anything until they get the ACA funded.

[OG Fire Beaster]

I am a veteran and benefits are still being paid. The VA got advanced funding for most of its activities earlier in the year in anticipation of this shutdown.

 

These are relevant in case you have any vets that need info.

 

http://www.va.gov/opa/docs/Field_Guide_20130927.pdf

 

http://www.va.gov/opa/docs/VA_Contingency_Plan_Document_20130927.pdf

Edited October 8, 2013 by OG Fire Beaster

[OG Fire Beaster]

Feel free to follow the link I posted and view what was passed in the house over the last 45 days.

 

I will list every item the house has approved for funding and cross reference them to which ones the senate has voted on(and passed). It will take a little so hold on. It is good to get this "on the record". So everyone can see where the dis-info is coming from.

Edited October 8, 2013 by OG Fire Beaster