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What Is It With Mites, Anyway?


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Care to show me anything that says its LEGAL or even SAFE to spray organic citrus based pesticides on cannabis to be smoked ? Nope, not yet, not in any state in our country. 

 

 we have people all over the state deciding what is safe for themselves, and for their sick patients to smoke. I bet that makes sick patients feel warm and fuzzy inside.  If its harmful in Cali, it's harmful in Michigan for thought. Not a cali issue though, its an EPA(national) issue.

I am sorry you are unable to locate an approved safe for human smoking pesticide to take the place of proper grow parameters and habits. As long as its safe for stoners, I guess that's good enough for the immune compromised too eh ?

Interesting that you would error on the unapproved side, unsafe side, unproven side of the issue, rather than exploring the error in your ways, maybe seeking a better safe solution. Your citrus oil is most definitely residue on your product, unless you "thoroughly wash before consumption" and can be seen clearly in lab tests...been there, done that.

 

C02 is organic, safe, and an acceptable pest management technique, albeit, not as cheap as a can of citrus solvent/insecticide, which may affect the bottom line of a harvest.

good day

 

Flouride is also an approved pesticide, but not for cannabis,  please don't put that on your mj, mmmkay?

We are in Michigan not California and I only use deterrents that are derived from citrus based products nothing toxic to humans .

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D-limonene – This chemical is produced by cold-pressing orange peels. The extracted oil is 90% d-limonene. It is a sensitizer, a neurotoxin, a moderate eye and skin irritant, and can trigger respiratory distress when vapours are inhaled  by some sensitive individuals.  There is some evidence of carcinogenicity.  D-limonene is the active ingredient in some insecticides. It is used as a solvent in many all-purpose cleaning products, especially ‘citrus’ and ‘orange’ cleaners.  Also listed on labels as citrus oil and orange oil.

 

So, in fact it is a neurotoxin, irritant, carcinogen,and can trigger respiratory distress when vapours are inhaled. I use citrus oil in my studio, for paint thinner, brush cleaning, and even for special oil paint mixes. It also cleans my bbq grill like nothing else in the world. If it splashes on my hand they dry up and crack in an hour. In an eye it will burn for hours like a soldering iron.

I recycle my soil with thousands of happy worms who's diet consists of only daily trimmed cannabis leaves and spent rootballs.  If a plant was sprayed/dipped, or soil app'd with any oil, neem, peppermint, lemon, orange, etc, the worms die when they come into contact with the material, even right here in Michigan !  This is proof enough for my patients, and me.  I bet its worse in cali eh ? hehe

 

I'm just bustin your balls man. citrus oil may turn out to be the safest cannabis spray around, but until then we should count on real facts, with long term results, before we decide to be chemists for the sick and their medicine. High Times shows medical gardens with hanging hot shot strips all the time, but that doesn't make it safe or acceptable. Its ok for you to use it, publicly, but to say it is safe for cannabis use is wrong, for now, and I hate to think of all the numbskulls using bbq cleaner to chase away the bugs they got from their buddies clones, because "everyone on the forums says its safe". Its not safe, just easy.

 

Grow Kindly

Edited by grassmatch
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for flowering, Wipeout.  Produced in Howell; a gallon costs $65.

for flowering, Mighty Wash.

any others?

 

I agree with the wipeout statement for sure, the best I have used, and its all natural and made in Michigan, what more could you want? Also supposed to kill eggs, but all I know is after neem azamax etc. wipeout was way more effective and only sure killer. azamax and neem attack reproduction, but no harm to eggs. other than a co2 bottle and a good meter its the best one out. IMO

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by natural, I mean uses essential oils mainly citronella and a few others. Check it out yourself, and I never really spray in flower. The stuff is made in Michigan, and the only thing that has worked for a lot of ppl I know. Just trying to pass on valuable info. definitely less toxic than avid and many other chems that we know many use. as I just just my humble opinion.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean I want to smoke it on my buds.  For example, cyanide is natural, it occurs in choke cherry trees.

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<p><strike>I'm not sure how to prove this, but maybe this will help</strike>;</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Spider mites breathe oxygen. Without oxygen the mites and their eggs, and most other small insects, including large spiders, bees, wasps</p>

<p>flies, etc, will die if they do not have enough oxygen to breathe. Adding c02 to a sealed atmosphere will saturate the space and displace oxygen.</p>

<p>When their is not enough oxygen to maintain life in the are, all things needing it for survival must die.</p>

<p>Its not voodoo, or difficult to wrap around. C02 is not a poisonous gas, it does not kill anything, the lack of oxygen does. think about it.</p>

<p>or try this. Get a bottle of c02 and put insects in a sealed container and wait till they run out of oxygen, or speed it up by displacing the o2 with added c02.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>remember its not about adding a poison to the room, its about removing the oxygen from it. I do have proof, I do it yearly before my room gets cleaned, with dlimonene.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>All the pet spiders in the corners are curled up dead on the floor in a very short time after the room reaches 10k ppm.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>the failures I've seen were obvious failures, vents left on, not enough c02 saturation, etc. A single propane fired flame will bring a sealed room to 10000ppm eventually, and no insect or their eggs can survive without the oxygen they need. hope that helps. simply opening a tank and closing the door is not adequate. some math must be done. break out the numbers to calculate how much c02 will be needed to displace the air for a hour or so. It costs me 5 bucks propane to do my room, 400 sq feet. I have a CAP generator in an enclosed dedicated sealed room/building.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>a clear small bag, vacuumed around the plant and its pot, and c02 pumped in for an hour or so will kill everything but the plant and some of the non oxygen needing microbes and friendly beneficials. seen it done, assisted many times. became a heroic mity mite smasher. not a trick, just oxygen breathing physics is all.   clones are not born of marijuana plants, they must arrive, and sadly most are actually invited in with stranger clones, fresh cut grass, houseplants, winterizing outdoor plants, etc. I believe its very simple to avoid them, 5 years solid for me, yeehaaa!</p>

<p>I feel bad for any affected by the gentlemen for sure.</p>

Edited by grassmatch
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I don't know what the effect is of low oxygen on bugs, but for people....we're accustomed to 21%.  17% is bad for us, and around 10-14% we get dizzy and non-functional.

 

With oxygen comprising about 1/5 of the air we breathe, if we introduce CO2 at the typical greenhouse level of about 1300 parts per million (which = 0.13%), then we'd expect the oxygen level to drop by about 1/5 of that...or about .03%.

 

If you introduce 10,000ppm CO2, that's 1% CO2, which would drop the oxygen level by about .2%

 

In order to make a room mildly toxic to humans by adding CO2, you'd need to get the levels up to around 200,000 ppm.  I don't know how that translates to mites, but it seems hard to believe that 10,000 ppm would get the job done.

 

Of course, you can't argue with results  :)

Edited by Highlander
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Everyone I know that tried CO2 had mites back with a month or three.  I even know one person that used CO2 four times.  Every time they claimed the mites were gone, but they would have them again 30 to 90 days later.  It could be he wasn't doing it right, but the guy was pretty intelligent.  

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Carbon dioxide exposure limits PEL and TLV set by OSHA and NIOSH

Carbon dioxide is regulated for diverse purposes but not as a toxic substance.

{C}

capbul1a.gifThe U.S. EPA CO2 exposure limits: The U.S. EPA recommends a maximum concentration of Carbon dioxide CO2 of 1000 ppm (0.1%) for continuous exposure. capbul1a.gifASHRAE standard 62-1989 recommends an indoor air ventilation standard of 20 cfm per person of outdoor air or a CO2 level which is below 1000ppm. capbul1a.gifNIOSH CO2 exposure limits: NIOSH recommends a maximum concentration of carbon dioxide of 10,000 ppm or 1% (for the workplace, for a 10-hr work shift with a ceiling of 3.0% or 30,000 ppm for any 10-minute period). These are the highest threshold limit value (TLV) and permissible exposure limit (PEL) assigned to any material.  NIOSH's recommended CO2 exposure limit for 15 minutes is 3.0% or 30,000 ppm . A CO2 level of 4% (40,000 ppm)  is designated by NIOSH as immediately dangerous to life or health. {C}{C} capbul1a.gif {C}OSHA CO2 exposure limits: The U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Safety & Health Administration, OSHA, has set Permissible Exposure Limits for Carbon Dioxide in workplace atmospheres at...{C}{C} {C}{C}{C}{C} capbul2a.gif {C} 10,000 ppm of CO2 measured as a Time Weighted Average (TWA) level of exposure {C}{C} capbul2a.gif {C}OSHA has set 30,000 ppm of CO2 as a Short-Term Exposure Limit (STEL). {C}{C} capbul2a.gif {C}OSHA has also set a Transitional Limit of 5,000 ppm CO2 exposure TWA. {C}{C} capbul2a.gif {C}[OSHA's former limit for carbon dioxide was 5000 ppm as an 8-hour TWA.] capbul2a.gif OSHA recommends a lowest oxygen concentration of 19.5% in the work place for a full work-shift exposure. As we calculated above, for the indoor workplace oxygen level to reach 19.5% (down from its normal 20.9% oxygen level in outdoor air) by displacement of oxygen by CO2, that is, to reduce the oxygen level by about 6%, the CO2 or carbon dioxide level would have to increase to about 1.4% 14,000 ppm.

In summary, OSHA, NIOSH, and ACGIH occupational exposure standards are 0.5% CO2 (5,000 ppm) averaged over a 40 hour week, 3% (3,000 ppm) average for a short-term (15 minute) exposure [we discuss and define "short term exposure limits" STEL below], and 4% (40,000 ppm) as the maximum instantaneous limit considered immediately dangerous to life and health.

not 200,000 ppm's

you could alternatively allow more c02 to saturate the room until a control bug is dead. when you test the air at that moment, most likely you'll see a slight variation in ppm, but close to 10kppm.

 

I don't know what the effect is of low oxygen on bugs, but for people....we're accustomed to 21%.  17% is bad for us, and around 10-14% we get dizzy and non-functional.

 

With oxygen comprising about 1/5 of the air we breathe, if we introduce CO2 at the typical greenhouse level of about 1300 parts per million (which = 0.13%), then we'd expect the oxygen level to drop by about 1/5 of that...or about .03%.

 

If you introduce 10,000ppm CO2, that's 1% CO2, which would drop the oxygen level by about .2%

 

In order to make a room mildly toxic to humans by adding CO2, you'd need to get the levels up to around 200,000 ppm.  I don't know how that translates to mites, but it seems hard to believe that 10,000 ppm would get the job done.

 

Of course, you can't argue with results  :)

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Great info. Thanks for posting it.

 

 

 

Carbon dioxide exposure limits PEL and TLV set by OSHA and NIOSH

Carbon dioxide is regulated for diverse purposes but not as a toxic substance.

 

{C}

 

capbul1a.gif

 

The U.S. EPA CO2 exposure limits: The U.S. EPA recommends a maximum concentration of Carbon dioxide CO2 of 1000 ppm (0.1%) for continuous exposure.

 

capbul1a.gif

 

ASHRAE standard 62-1989 recommends an indoor air ventilation standard of 20 cfm per person of outdoor air or a CO2 level which is below 1000ppm.

 

capbul1a.gif

 

NIOSH CO2 exposure limits: NIOSH recommends a maximum concentration of carbon dioxide of 10,000 ppm or 1% (for the workplace, for a 10-hr work shift with a ceiling of 3.0% or 30,000 ppm for any 10-minute period). These are the highest threshold limit value (TLV) and permissible exposure limit (PEL) assigned to any material.  NIOSH's recommended CO2 exposure limit for 15 minutes is 3.0% or 30,000 ppm . A CO2 level of 4% (40,000 ppm)  is designated by NIOSH as immediately dangerous to life or health. {C}{C}

 

capbul1a.gif

 

{C}OSHA CO2 exposure limits: The U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Safety & Health Administration, OSHA, has set Permissible Exposure Limits for Carbon Dioxide in workplace atmospheres at...{C}{C} {C}{C}{C}{C}

 

capbul2a.gif

 

{C} 10,000 ppm of CO2 measured as a Time Weighted Average (TWA) level of exposure {C}{C}

 

capbul2a.gif

 

{C}OSHA has set 30,000 ppm of CO2 as a Short-Term Exposure Limit (STEL). {C}{C}

 

capbul2a.gif

 

{C}OSHA has also set a Transitional Limit of 5,000 ppm CO2 exposure TWA. {C}{C}

 

capbul2a.gif

 

{C}[OSHA's former limit for carbon dioxide was 5000 ppm as an 8-hour TWA.]

 

capbul2a.gif

 

OSHA recommends a lowest oxygen concentration of 19.5% in the work place for a full work-shift exposure. As we calculated above, for the indoor workplace oxygen level to reach 19.5% (down from its normal 20.9% oxygen level in outdoor air) by displacement of oxygen by CO2, that is, to reduce the oxygen level by about 6%, the CO2 or carbon dioxide level would have to increase to about 1.4% 14,000 ppm.

 

In summary, OSHA, NIOSH, and ACGIH occupational exposure standards are 0.5% CO2 (5,000 ppm) averaged over a 40 hour week, 3% (3,000 ppm) average for a short-term (15 minute) exposure [we discuss and define "short term exposure limits" STEL below], and 4% (40,000 ppm) as the maximum instantaneous limit considered immediately dangerous to life and health.

not 200,000 ppm's

you could alternatively allow more c02 to saturate the room until a control bug is dead. when you test the air at that moment, most likely you'll see a slight variation in ppm, but close to 10kppm.

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yep, makes sense to me. The most likely reason they had mites in the first place was stranger clones invited into the room, or even other growers to check out the grow.

Chances are, they couldn't abstain form this behavior for three more months.

 

the important part of their experience though was that they could find no live mites after 10, 000 ppm saturation. Maybe it takes a little longer to kill oxygen needing eggs?

 maybe there was that little place with a breeze of fresh air to use? not sure, but it works, and I suggest it as a preventative measure for the growers who cant stop inviting them in. 

Everyone I know that tried CO2 had mites back with a month or three.  I even know one person that used CO2 four times.  Every time they claimed the mites were gone, but they would have them again 30 to 90 days later.  It could be he wasn't doing it right, but the guy was pretty intelligent.  

Edited by grassmatch
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um, I would step out of the sealed room, but that's just me. scuba gear would work also.

I use a small observation window with the growers bugs of choice captured in a cheesecloth covered jar. peek aboo, and they're dead, as proof. I have a window also on my grow room, but never had mites. never took in a clone, never had a visitor. always clean clothes upon entry. I gas once in awhile as a preventive, but am concerned now with the beneficial microbes I work so hard to cultivate. too lazy to study the effects of subterranean co2 saturation.

How would you do that without endangering yourself?  SCUBA gear?

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um, I would step out of the sealed room, but that's just me. scuba gear would work also.

I use a small observation window with the growers bugs of choice captured in a cheesecloth covered jar. peek aboo, and they're dead, as proof. I have a window also on my grow room, but never had mites. never took in a clone, never had a visitor. always clean clothes upon entry. I gas once in awhile as a preventive, but am concerned now with the beneficial microbes I work so hard to cultivate. too lazy to study the effects of subterranean co2 saturation.

 

But if you step out of the sealed room, aren't you possibly letting in oxygen that could end the process?  I'm just a little confused since I understand the air mixture doesn't have to be the same throughout the entire room.  There may be no oxygen in the area by your window, which very few people have, and still be oxygen in a back corner of the room.   I think that's why my acquaintance had to keep treating his room, because it wasn't fully saturated, or there was an air leak somewhere.

 

So you never had mites?  ...and you're positive this will work?  Why?  

 

It just hasn't worked for anyone that I know that tried it.

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um, I would step out of the sealed room, but that's just me. scuba gear would work also.

I use a small observation window with the growers bugs of choice captured in a cheesecloth covered jar. peek aboo, and they're dead, as proof. I have a window also on my grow room, but never had mites. never took in a clone, never had a visitor. always clean clothes upon entry. I gas once in awhile as a preventive, but am concerned now with the beneficial microbes I work so hard to cultivate. too lazy to study the effects of subterranean co2 saturation.

 

I understand the toxicology of this better now.  I was looking at it from the standpoint of displacing O2 rather than the actual toxicity of CO2.  For example, Nitrogen isn't toxic itself, but if you have too much of it, then that means there isn't enough O2.  I hadn't realized that CO2 had its own toxicity level. 

 

Good work.

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Ordinarily, carbon dioxide is not poisonous. It diffuses from your cells into your bloodstream and from there out via your lungs, yet it is always present throughout your body.

However, if you breathe high concentrations of carbon dioxide or re-breathe air (such as from a plastic bag or tent), you may be at risk for carbon dioxide intoxication or even carbon dioxide poisoning. Carbon dioxide intoxication and carbon dioxide poisoning are independent of oxygen concentration, so you may have enough oxygen present to support life, yet still suffer from the effects of rising carbon dioxide concentration in your blood and tissues. Symptoms of carbon dioxide toxicity include high blood pressure, flushed skin, headache and twitching muscles. At higher levels, you could experience panic, irregular heartbeat, hallucinations, vomited and potentially unconsciousness or even death. wiki says A photosynthesis-related drop (by a factor less than two) in carbon dioxide concentration in a greenhouse compartment would kill green plants, or, at least, completely stop their growth. At very high concentrations (100 times atmospheric concentration, or greater), carbon dioxide can be toxic to animal life, so raising the concentration to 10,000 ppm (1%) or higher for several hours will eliminate pests such as whiteflies and spider mites in a greenhouse.[26]

CO2 is an asphyxiant gas and not classified as toxic or harmful in accordance with Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labelling of Chemicals standards of United Nations Economic Commission for Europe by using the OECD Guidelines for the Testing of Chemicals. In concentrations up to 1% (10,000 ppm), it will make some people feel drowsy.[79] Concentrations of 7% to 10% may cause suffocation, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.[81]

hope that helps

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good question(answer in earlier post). I have been scared enough to fire up the bomb when I saw an outbreak of gnats, and saw lots of different insects curled up and dead in my rooms. I didn't invent this, as its ages old info. Not a trick, but science. the physics should be convincing to any doubter, assuming a sealed room, and enough c02 is present, for a duration long enough for insects to asphyxiate.

 

I've done this for several friends hands on, mattress bags for multiple plants, generator for larger rooms, and some garbage bags for spot treatments. We could clearly see the mites die. along with every other air breathing being on the plant.  I've also turned on folks like yourself, who actually did it correctly and it worked as stated. When I heard of it I needed no further information than how long does it take my generator to make enough c02, how much heat would this produce, could I manage the heat for the necessary duration. I have a liquid cooled c02 generator I use 6 months, and a normal four burner, pilot light one for the other six months.

 

I started out with the top of the line equipment, sparing no expense, and followed every rule in the Jorge Cervantes book for construction, atmosphere parameters, etc, and didn't feel the effects of pests until I started slacking on the sealed room part. I don't slack now, but am not afraid of anything but the blue man. I am positive proper temps RH, C02, air circulation, scrubbing, feeding techniques (all year, day and night)and general good grow habits go a long way in preventing pests. If my room isn't 80 degrees during the day, my digi thermo kicks in the 220 base boards. Humidity never rises above 50%, night time temps are held solid, either cooled or heated to, 65 f. Air is scrubbed  and moved 24/7 with 2x 3 foot canisters replaced/refilled yearly. worms reside within the rooms, clones do not. Dirt is stored outside the rooms, floors are not as clean as they should be. A cement mixer is used to blend the replenished recycled worm dirt(outside room) for plants going into the flower room. Vegging plants are not fertilized, and grow only in a happy frog/pro mix and spring water for about 50 days, or till around 12-18 inches tall before transferring to prefilled trays in the flower room. my jack russel has visited the room with no worries, but not habitually. C02 cuts my flowering time, and also increases my terpene profiles, harvest weight, or else I wouldn't use it. I loves my c02

But if you step out of the sealed room, aren't you possibly letting in oxygen that could end the process?  I'm just a little confused since I understand the air mixture doesn't have to be the same throughout the entire room.  There may be no oxygen in the area by your window, which very few people have, and still be oxygen in a back corner of the room.   I think that's why my acquaintance had to keep treating his room, because it wasn't fully saturated, or there was an air leak somewhere.

 

So you never had mites?  ...and you're positive this will work?  Why?  

 

It just hasn't worked for anyone that I know that tried it.

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