Experts Weigh In On Medical Marijuana ‘Hotel Certifications’

[Dr. Bob]

Watch your tone with me.

 

And that was not exactly true.  What he said was that people with section 4 were being forced into section 8 due to lack of understanding by the courts and prosecutors, which I AM SURE HE IS GOING TO CLARIFY NOW.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

This conversation is over for the time being.

[bobandtorey]

I already do thanks

[GregS]

It is not "many" that have to deal with this, but it still sucks for the person dealing with it, even more so when it seems so few care. While Malamute's comments that 99% have no problems may be a logical fallacy, it is closer to true than to say there are "many" having to deal with unfair and uneducated courts. It is actually very few, considering.

 

It would be great if the courts were perfect, but they are not, and when they are bad on this issue, they are very bad. The underlying charge is a felony, and they treat it as such until the case is resolved. It is a great deal of pressure for the defendant.

 

It is happening to few enough people that we have no excuse for not supporting them, I think.

If not for caring I would not have brought this thing this far.

Edited November 12, 2013 by GregS

[Natesilver]

Great points Greg.

[Dr. Bob]

Great points Greg.

so average man on the street, what points are you taking home from this concept Nate?

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Ok Case to report which is back on topic.  Spoke to this individual last night at the SWMiCC down by Niles.

 

Patient in legal limits was arrested for not having all external doors lock- PD claimed his grow wasn't secured and court would not give him Section 4.

 

He had gone to one of those travelling marketing companies that ran minimal standard certifications out of hotel rooms in the area.  Excellent attorney, well known in SW Michigan, explored a section 8 defense.

 

Marketing director of the traveling certification clinic was put on the stand, very poor witness and was eaten alive by the prosecutor (as I recall the case occurred in Berrien or Cass Co).  Couldn't shut up on the stand and dug herself a hole from which she never recovered.

 

While that was bad enough and really hurt his Section 8 case (it looked like a no-standards traveling circus per the patient) the real problem was the doctor.  He had a 10 page agreement with the DEA for non-prosecution for narcotic violations with a condition that he not write certifications.  This was NOT disclosed to patients.  The physician was impeachable on the stand if they proceeded with the Section 8.

 

Facing a significant charge vs a plea in a very winnable (with the proper high standard clinic and good procedures) the patient opted to take the plea rather than risk his future on the reputation of a mill and a seriously flawed doctor with little if any credibility.

 

All to save $30 on the cert, or have a chance to renew it through the mail.

 

Wonder if the savings was worth it?

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Are you suggesting that the venue was the reason for the decision? It is clear that the bona fide requirement was so irresponsibly neglected that the court could not find otherwise. The venue may have been a funny aside, but the more clear violations are certainly the reason for the decision.

 

Is it possible to hold a neglectful physician responsible for fraud as long as the doctor has made assurance to the patient who then has reason to believe that said physician has met requirements, and for the court to rule the patient not culpable in that?

[bobandtorey]

Are you suggesting that the venue was the reason for the decision? It is clear that the bona fide requirement was so irresponsibly neglected that the court could not find otherwise. The venue may have been a funny aside, but the more clear violations are certainly the reason for the decision.

 

Is it possible to hold a neglectful physician responsible for fraud as long as the doctor has made assurance to the patient who then has reason to believe that said physician has met requirements, and for the court to rule the patient not culpable in that?

 

 

Sure if he had the $$$ to keep fighting Maybe

[bobandtorey]

Ok Case to report which is back on topic.  Spoke to this individual last night at the SWMiCC down by Niles.

 

Patient in legal limits was arrested for not having all external doors lock- PD claimed his grow wasn't secured and court would not give him Section 4.

 

He had gone to one of those travelling marketing companies that ran minimal standard certifications out of hotel rooms in the area.  Excellent attorney, well known in SW Michigan, explored a section 8 defense.

 

Marketing director of the traveling certification clinic was put on the stand, very poor witness and was eaten alive by the prosecutor (as I recall the case occurred in Berrien or Cass Co).  Couldn't shut up on the stand and dug herself a hole from which she never recovered.

 

While that was bad enough and really hurt his Section 8 case (it looked like a no-standards traveling circus per the patient) the real problem was the doctor.  He had a 10 page agreement with the DEA for non-prosecution for narcotic violations with a condition that he not write certifications.  This was NOT disclosed to patients.  The physician was impeachable on the stand if they proceeded with the Section 8.

 

Facing a significant charge vs a plea in a very winnable (with the proper high standard clinic and good procedures) the patient opted to take the plea rather than risk his future on the reputation of a mill and a seriously flawed doctor with little if any credibility.

 

All to save $30 on the cert, or have a chance to renew it through the mail.

 

Wonder if the savings was worth it?

 

Dr. Bob

Thanks Doc

Although as you pointed out about the Doc here they do not think they will end up in a court room on the stand and the prosecutor knows that 

[Dr. Bob]

Mostly they don't care on that level- this was one of the low quality clinics discussed at the onset of this post.  These mills are just out to make a quick buck and it requires some due diligence by the patient (they are the ones charged) to make sure things are done right.  

Edited November 12, 2013 by Dr. Bob

[trichcycler]

Doc,

I see businessmen with an office front who employ the services of qualified physicians operating these "mills" often. I got the feeling when I visited that they were proponents of medical cannabis, and doing the right thing by allowing access to those who need it. I didn't see the physicians as involved in a cheesy business as much as I saw the "Office Manager" who paid the rent and made the money. there orchestrating one. I didn't judge though, seemed legit to me, mostly(?)and now my personal physician has his own practice and no issue at all being in my corner.  any opinions on this are appreciated

Mostly they don't care on that level- this was one of the low quality clinics discussed at the onset of this post.  These mills are just out to make a quick buck and it requires some due diligence by the patient (they are the ones charged) to make sure things are done right.  

[Dr. Bob]

There are good people in the industry, business folks and docs alike.  Not all use the same model. but many have realized that they can provide a quality, defensible service and still make a profit.  It is the quest for that extra 25% that leads some astray- dropping standards, not requiring records- practices that clearly are more interested in getting as many warm (and paying) bodies through the door.  Good doctors want to be paid.  Damaged ones want a job that will pay 'something'.  Going for the cheaper route, cutting standards, forgetting it is about the patients rather than the money, are the signs of a mill.  

 

Pity is that patients don't bother to check, they just want to save the $25 bucks.  Until it comes back to bite them, as it did in this case.

 

You get what you pay for.

 

Dr. Bob

[trichcycler]

thank you. Do you think patients are actually trying to save a few bucks, rather than being forced to drive 200 miles just to find a cert center doc in southfield somewhere? Not you of course, but that was my experience at first. No doctor would cert me, and even scolded me, bummed me out. I googled, found a carnival cert center, and proceeded. I would not have done that had my brick and mortar docs been willing to certify me. I felt forced by the medical community to further hide my activity, and stoop this way.  Do you see an issue with a "chain' of cert offices with rotating rounds of qualified physicians ? or the just the hotel, or tented operators at the marijuana fest ?

[Dr. Bob]

thank you. Do you think patients are actually trying to save a few bucks, rather than being forced to drive 200 miles just to find a cert center doc in southfield somewhere? Not you of course, but that was my experience at first. No doctor would cert me, and even scolded me, bummed me out. I googled, found a carnival cert center, and proceeded. I would not have done that had my brick and mortar docs been willing to certify me. I felt forced by the medical community to further hide my activity, and stoop this way.  Do you see an issue with a "chain' of cert offices with rotating rounds of qualified physicians ? or the just the hotel, or tented operators at the marijuana fest ?

Good quality certs have been available for some time now in most areas of the state, the problem is that the circus comes to town and everyone jumps at the $69 never see you again deal.  It is very difficult to compete with those taking patients from clinics trying to do it right and sustain themselves.  Doc read about the cases, and doctors in court, and want nothing to do with it.  There is also a perception of 'shadiness' about these certification centers because the ones they hear about are the shady ones that sell signatures.

 

In my case, and I am just one of several good clinics in the state, I have a chain of offices with support staff and ancillary providers (acupuncture/massage/counselling) etc which are constantly expanding in scope.  I am just one part of the practice, and most of my work isn't even with MMJ.  But at least it is a perm office that does something other than just sign certs, which helps the patients comply with the law and defend themselves if the case comes to the attention of the authorities.

 

That is a little different than swooping in and leaving with no trace.  Try to find one of the many dispensary doctors that used to be so common lately?  If you can't find them to recert, do you think you can find them to defend you?

 

Dr. Bob