Multiple Duplicate Id Cards Or Photocopies?

[t-pain]

does a photocopy of a mmj card and photocopy of a drivers license constitute a valid id for section4 protection?

 

does anyone keep a copy of their cards with their medicine in their medicine cabinets ?

does anyone keep a copy of their cards in their grow room?

 

i dont remember anyone talking about this. any old threads on the subject?

i'm pretty sure you can get a second card from lara for $10.

also you can get multiple drivers license cards from SoS. i dont know the price on those.

Edited November 25, 2013 by t-pain

[t-pain]

some old talk about having a card on you at all times...

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/36192-required-to-have-card-at-all-times/

[t-pain]

ince the CoA says we haveta provide evidence of medical use.

 

is there a template of testimony that a patient can fill out to satisfy the required hoopa-joopas?

 

Possession of a registry card, without more, does nothing to address these § 8 medical
requirements. It offers no proof of the existence of an ongoing relationship between patient and
physician, as mandated by § 8(a)(1).

 

A registry card—even one verified by the state, pursuant to the
requirements of § 6—cannot demonstrate a “pre-existing” relationship between physician and
patient, much less show “ongoing” contact betweenthe two.

 

He presented no evidence regarding how
often and how much marijuana he required to treat his pain

 

(how many more requirements are the judges going to write into the law?)

 

I, __name here__ , am currently in a pre-existing ongoing bona-fied doctor patient relationship with __doctor name_ for the treatment of __illness or symptom here__ with the medical use of marihuana.

 

I have had regular check ups with __doc__ with reguard to the treatment of __qualifying condition__ and the efficacy of medical marihuana for my symptoms.

 

I treat my _symptom_ with _amount_ of medical marihuana each _day/time/week_.

 

I also use more medical marijuana as needed as recommended by __my doctor__.

 

I do not weigh my medical marijuana on any scale, so i cannot give any exact measurement.

I only use medical marijuana as recommended to me by _doctor_ for treating my _illness_.

 

what else am i missing? i guess more testimony of 'my doctor has reviewed my medical records blah blah blah'.

Edited November 25, 2013 by t-pain

[Norby]

I went to my doctor for IBS in New York about 6 times over the last 12 years. Why do I have to go to this one more often?   I'm being prescribed alprazolam(xanax).  Why do I have to see a doctor more for a safer drug?

My qualifying condition is a syndrome.  No cure, you just have to manage keeping the symptoms away.  Seems that if I medicate to stave off the symptoms I'm not following the act?  Your supposed to TREAT your condition, not do preventive maintenance right?

 

This is why I don't like the way this law is going.  They're trying to put everyone in a box to try and cut abuse but it does nothing but hurt patients.

 

Sorry for the hi-jack.  I have the letter from the State in my room, but I have the only key so there's no getting in there unless I'm here, so I don't know if it'd do any good.

 

Also, I had a relationship with the doctor who diagnosed me 30+ years ago and relationships with doctors for the last 10-12 years and then moved here.  I've had my primary recommend mj to ease up or eliminate the xanax.  Why can't any doctor and ex doctors records also count?  Like a story instead of all hinging on one relationship.  The diagnoses and the recommendation can be had by many doctors.

 

  Would it help if I had my NYS records showing that my doctor knew I was taking mj for my affliction(which is why I don't go to see them) and had no problems with it.  Should I get a note from my primary care physician too?  Would any of these help?

Edited November 25, 2013 by Norby

[bobandtorey]

Thanks to all that have asked very good Questions here i can agree to

You can't have enough documentation the more you have the beet the out come imho

[GregS]

ince the CoA says we haveta provide evidence of medical use.

 

is there a template of testimony that a patient can fill out to satisfy the required hoopa-joopas?

 

Possession of a registry card, without more, does nothing to address these § 8 medical

requirements. It offers no proof of the existence of an ongoing relationship between patient and

physician, as mandated by § 8(a)(1).

 

A registry card—even one verified by the state, pursuant to the

requirements of § 6—cannot demonstrate a “pre-existing” relationship between physician and

patient, much less show “ongoing” contact betweenthe two.

 

He presented no evidence regarding how

often and how much marijuana he required to treat his pain

 

(how many more requirements are the judges going to write into the law?)

 

 

what else am i missing? i guess more testimony of 'my doctor has reviewed my medical records blah blah blah'.

The documents that I have proposed are intended to lock in the necessary requisites for an adequate defense. We are presently working to update a more or less standardized physician's statement. Hartwick is unconscionable because the Court is demanding things that are not required by law and that can and will be used against us. Please note, tpain, that there is no requirement in the law that there be a prior medical relationship between a patient and the certifying physician. We are further watching whether or not the case will be appealed, at which point the Supreme Court will likely b!tch slap the COA one more time. Some people just don't get it.

 

Those doucments are here:

 

This should be the final draft of a workable document to present as a preponderance of evidence in defending oneself under the Affirmative Defense along with any pertinent supporting documents. Please note the inclusion of a confidentiality clause and do not overlook the supporting documents. It is not intended as legal advice, and should be considered by an attorney at law before use. This and the supporting doucments may be used in any circumstance where protection under the law is wanted by a patient or caregiver, registered or unregistered.

 

Patient/Caregiver Agreement to Engage in the Medical Use of marijuana

 

I,______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am a patient under the Michigan Medical marijuana Act, Initiated Law 1 of 2008.

 

__Dr._____________________________, a physician authorized under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556, physician license I.D. number____________________ ,has stated that in the physician's professional opinion, on or about (date)___________________________, and after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship, that I am likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition (copy attached) .

 

Or:

 

__A registry card duly issued by the State of Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs (LARA) , number______________________(copy attached), has been issued to me which attests to a physician's recommendation that in the physician's professional opinion, and after having completed a full assessment of my medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship, I am likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition.

 

I hereby designate_______________________________ as my caregiver under that law, and agree to conform to the Act in the medical use of marijuana.

 

I, ______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am at least 21 years of age and have agreed to assist with the above named patient's medical use of marijuana. I have not been convicted of any felony within the past 10 years and have never been convicted of a felony involving illegal drugs or a felony that is an assaultive crime as defined in section 9a of chapter X of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 770.9a.

 

Confidentiality: Each party agrees and undertakes that it shall not, without first obtaining the written consent of the other, disclose or make available to any person, reproduce or transmit in any manner or use (directly or indirectly) for its own benefit or the benefit of others, any Confidential Information, save and except that both parties may disclose any Confidential Information to their legal advisers and counselors for the specific purposes contemplated by this agreement. Presentment or disclosure of this information is not prohibited as required by law or in any prosecution pertaining to the medical use of marijuana.

 

For the purpose of this Agreement, Legal advisers and counselors shall mean, with respect to any party, any person licensed to practice at law, or any paralegal, legal assistant, or other person directly supervised by an attorney at law who is ultimately responsible for any and all work product.

 

Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________

 

Patient sign here: _________________________________

 

Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________

 

Caregiver sign here: ________________________________

 

/s/_________________________________

 

Print Notary Name: ________________________________

 

Notary public, State of Michigan, County of _____________________

 

My commission expires ___________________

 

Acting in the County of ___________________

 

Supporting documents are here: https://sites.google...attredirects=0, and here

https://sites.google...?attredirects=0

 

Gratis to Greg Schmid, Esq. for the supporting doucments.

Edited November 25, 2013 by GregS

[imiubu]

Seems I remember a meeting to which this (or a similar) document was introduced for discussion.

I heard it said from a person to whom I believe has a dern good grasp of how the law works say...

 

(not verbatim)

 

that the above document would not hurt a case and may help... if it can be put into evidence.

 

Correct ?

 

So, in and of itself the document above may not prove your case, it is just one more piece of supporting evidence,

 

Correct?

 

The more documentation the better,

 

Correct?

 

 

How would Mr. Schmid's document get introduced into evidence and what does that mean to us lay people???

 

Thanks in advance

[GregS]

Seems I remember a meeting to which this (or a similar) document was introduced for discussion.

I heard it said from a person to whom I believe has a dern good grasp of how the law works say...

 

(not verbatim)

 

that the above document would not hurt a case and may help... if it can be put into evidence.

 

Correct ?

 

So, in and of itself the document above may not prove your case, it is just one more piece of supporting evidence,

 

Correct?

 

The more documentation the better,

 

Correct?

 

 

How would Mr. Schmid's document get introduced into evidence and what does that mean to us lay people???

 

Thanks in advance

Right on all counts. Thanks for asking.

 

This is what we have so far. It isn't probably ready for easy reading, but we're trying to pare it down. The Michigan Rules of Evidence are sometimes loosely followed instructions for judges. Some with a corrupt bad attitude can and do deny any or all of them. Those rules are here, http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/CurrentCourtRules/2MichiganRulesOfEvidence.pdf

 

This following repeated text covers the supporting medical document(s), and to include registry cards as attesting to a physician's opinion. Presentment of a valid card (a copy which is a requisite to accompany a contract if in lieu of a written opinion) along with the contract eliminates the need for another documented physician statement. It is borrowed text from Greg Schmid, who requires that credit be given him if using it in any way verbatim:

 

 

"It is essential that this defense be presentable without live testimony from the doctor. The court will likely make defendant prove the “physician” is licensed, and so a certified record should be obtained early to avoid an MRE 902 emergency. Technically the patient can prove that the physician statement was made without hearsay objection, as the fact that the statement was made is the operative fact in question. As the law does not allow a Judge to second guess the physician[s professional opinion in this regard, so the defendant need only prove the statement was made, not whether it was reasonable.   However, prosecutor will argue that defendant needs also to prove that the statement was a considered one, and that may not be so easy.     The prosecutor will argue that the statute provides the statement must be made “after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and patient's current medical condition”, and that must being the course of a bona fide physician patient relationship. The defendant can testify on personal knowledge that he was there and observed the “complete assessment” taking place, and can establish the bona fide relationship, but will the showing be of sufficient weight to pass the preponderance test? Who is a patient to judge what constitutes a full assessment by a doctor? The Patient can testify that the doctor said he completed the full assessment, but if the question of whether that full assessment really took place is in issue, then such testimony would be hearsay because is would be offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted – that the full assessment was made.   Three solutions present themselves. MRE 803(6) Hearsay exception for regularly kept business records could get written medical reports into evidence to prove the complete assessment occurred, and even the bona fide relationship. This would merely require compliance with MCL 902(11), and the assumption that the doctor wrote it all down. [see MRE 902(11)] Certified records of regularly conducted activity.  The original or a duplicate of a record…of regularly conducted business activity that would be admissible under rule 803(6), if accompanied by a w r i t t e n d e c l a r a t i o n u n d e r o a t h b y i t s c u s t o d i a n o r o t h e r q u a li f i e d p e r s o n certifying that….the record is contemporaneous to the complete assessment, in the course of regular activity, and according to regular practice. Counsel should obtain this affidavit early, as prior notice of the declaration is a condition to self authentication. Of course, if seems obvious but that MRE 

803(4) would apply. “ Statements made for purposes of medical treatment o r m e d i c a l d i a g n o s i s i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t r e a t m e n t. Statements made for purposes of medical treatment or medical diagnosis in connection with treatment and describing medical history, or past or present symptoms, pain, or sensations, or the inception or general character of the cause or external source thereof insofar as reasonably necessary to such diagnosis and treatment.”   However, counsel may be confronted with the argument that the rule admits patient statements made to aid in diagnosis, not those of the Doctor made to express the completeness of the doctor’s assessment. Counsel may simply wish to argue that the element should be interpreted to mean that the “statement made” language includes the statement that the doctor made a full assessment of the history and current condition. That is, that he has stated,  “that, in the physician's professional opinion, after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician patient relationship, the patient is likely….” In this interpretation, the patient’s testimony would be admissible to establish the entire element, and sound something like this, “He stated he had made a full assessment of my medical history and current condition, and that he had formed a professional opinion…, which was that I was likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the use of marijuana to (treat or alleviate) my (serious medical condition or debilitating medical condition or symptoms thereof).”

 

 

(end of quoted text)

 

 

First and foremost regarding the contract itself, it is allowed hearsay per 803(6);

Records of regularly conducted activity.

A memorandum, report, record, or data

compilation, in any form, of acts, transactions, occurrences, events, conditions,

opinions, or diagnoses, made at or near the time by, or from information

transmitted by, a person with knowledge, if kept in the course of a regularly

conducted business activity, and if it was the regular practice of that business

activity to make the memorandum, report, record, or data compilation, all as shown

by the testimony of the custodian or other qualified witness, or by certification that

complies with a rule promulgated by the supreme court or a statute permitting

certification, unless the source of information or the method or circumstances of

preparation indicate lack of trustworthiness. The term "business" as used in this

paragraph includes business, institution, association, profession, occupation, and

calling of every kind, whether or not conducted for profit.

 

I have no idea how that is much different than 902(11)-

Certified records of regularly conducted activity.

The original or a duplicate of

a record, whether domestic or foreign, of regularly

conducted business activity that

would be admissible under rule 803(6), if accompanied by a written declaration

under oath by its custodian or other qualified person certifying that

(A) The record was made at or near the time of the occurrence of the mat

ters

set forth by, or from information transmitted by, a person with knowledge of

those matters;

(B) The record was kept in the course of the regularly conducted business

activity; and

© It was the regular practice of the business activity to make the re

cord.

A party intending to offer a record into evidence under this paragraph must

provide written notice of that intention to all adverse parties, and must make

the record and declaration available for inspection sufficiently in advance of

their offer into

evidence to provide an adverse party with a fair opportunity to

challenge them

 

That patients and caregivers can be expected to use these methods with regularity, they qualify under those rules. Those methods and documents are beginning to show up in court.

 

 

 

There are 803 (1)-Present Sense Impression:

A statement describing or explaining an event or condition made while the declarant was perceiving the event or condition, orimmediately thereafter.

 

 

802(7)-Other Exceptions (Catchall Rule).

A statement not specifically covered by any of the

foregoing exceptions but having equivalent circumstantial guarantees of

trustworthiness, if the court determines that (A) the statement is offered as

evidence of a material fact, (B) the statement is more probative on the point for

which it is offered

than any other evidence that the proponent can procure

through reasonable efforts, and © the general purposes of these rules and the

interests of justice will best be served by admission of the statement into

evidence. However, a statement may not be admitted under this exception

unless the proponent of the statement makes known to the adverse party,

sufficiently in advance of the trial or hearing to provide the adverse party with a

fair opportunity to prepare to meet it, the proponent's intention to offer the

statement and the particulars of it, including the name and address of the declarant.

 

 

All of the documents are notarized, rendering them self authenticated and are admissible and are not required to be excluded- 902(8):

Acknowledged documents.

Documents accompanied by a certificate of

acknowledgment executed in the manner provided by law by a notary public or

other officer authorized by law to take acknowledgments.

 

Notary Commissions can be had at http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1638_8736---,00.html for a few bucks. Notarization pays ten bucks per signature.

Edited November 25, 2013 by GregS