Quest For The Best Nutrient Solution: Organic Vs Salts

[Norby]

Admin Edit:

 

It has been mentioned in another unrelated thread that there is a perceived difference in the healthfulness of the results when growing medical marijuana by organic or salt-based nutrition. While there is a lot of misunderstanding on the subject, and everybody has preferences, there is no difference in the healthfulness of properly-fed cannabis plants, either by salt or organic nutrition. The great "flushing" debate is a related subject.

 

It is important for quality results to feed properly, and because there are so many variations between indoor gardens particularly, this subject can cause disagreement based on personal experiences, particularly if those personal experiences are not fully understood. What is perfect for one garden can cause terrible results in another.

 

This thread is not about growing in the ground outside; that has a completely different dynamic and results from container growing, indoors or out.

 

 

 

The lack of GOOD research is what I'm worried about.  They studied on chimps before and used gas masks with no oxygen for over 2 minutes to show brain damage.  Unfortunately that's research designed to give bad results.

 

Not to mention, who are the caregivers?  Cup winners or the people I have been getting patients from because they are lacking and only have 2-4 years experience and no real skills? Organic or chem ferts?  There can be a big difference between meds grown in a gov't test facility and a caregiver who has 10 - 15 elite/diverse strains to get the right(best) one.

Edited June 14, 2014 by zapatosunidos

[Restorium2]

The lack of GOOD research is what I'm worried about.  They studied on chimps before and used gas masks with no oxygen for over 2 minutes to show brain damage.  Unfortunately that's research designed to give bad results.

 

Not to mention, who are the caregivers?  Cup winners or the people I have been getting patients from because they are lacking and only have 2-4 years experience and no real skills? Organic or chem ferts?  There can be a big difference between meds grown in a gov't test facility and a caregiver who has 10 - 15 elite/diverse strains to get the right(best) one.

Be careful how you characterize the nutes we use. Keep in mind that GH Nutes are chemical nutes and it's what NASA uses. Proven safe to use if used correctly. We can be our own worst enemies sometimes when we tend to cut down the very things that most of us depend on to provide the best meds to patients.

I think that it's not a lack of experience for most failure caregivers. It's more like laziness and a lack of understanding that growing is a job. People who can't hold down a steady job for 3 months at a time can't grow because it IS a steady job that requires attention and commitment for months at a time.

[Norby]

Be careful how you characterize the nutes we use. Keep in mind that GH Nutes are chemical nutes and it's what NASA uses. Proven safe to use if used correctly. We can be our own worst enemies sometimes when we tend to cut down the very things that most of us depend on to provide the best meds to patients.

I think that it's not a lack of experience for most failure caregivers. It's more like laziness and a lack of understanding that growing is a job. People who can't hold down a steady job for 3 months at a time can't grow because it IS a steady job that requires attention and commitment for months at a time.

I didn't know NASA smoked.  If u don't flush chem nutes it's worse for you than organics? no?  Ingesting is not the same as smoking  Why would we "depend" on GH nutes for the "best" meds?  You do realize we've used mj for meds before chem nutes.  Sorry I don't see why we would be coupling a nutrient company with our meds in reliance.  you lost me.  It's hard enough to get a fair shake in a scientific study I'd only want mj with the least able to be found "harms" in it representing a scientific medical study that will be taken as truth by politicians and antis.

 

I didn't say that lack of experience led to failure I said it led to subpar meds which I wouldn't want representing in a study.  There are a lot of things that need to be learned by experience to get things right consistently.  It takes experience to grow strains right that need different nute levels.  Experience, if you learn, leads to a better caregiver.  You can overdo it with nutes, watering, etc. so being overbearing on your craft can lead to failure too.  There are a lot of things that lead to failure or subpar meds, all of which I'd rather not reflect my job or legitimacy as a caregiver reflected in a study.

 

Sorry but I hold things to a higher standard when it comes to something so many people look at like religion.  I'll characterize nutes differently when it's a patients preference rather than a scientific study.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Norby

[Norby]

Not flushing magnesium and phosphorous from the plant doesn't create a higher temp burn and harsher smoke with who knows what effects?  I figured smoking p,k,mg,mn and n would give irritant effects to the mucosal lining of the lungs.  And who knows what effect to the cells it gets transported to.  now if your vaping or eating it I don't think it would be as bad or any effect.  I've personally experienced the difference in taste and burn in non flushed meds and meds grown with chems that haven't been flushed.  If you think it's that discernable in the taste and harshness on the throat and lungs and doesn't affect your health in any way, more power to ya.  I have no studies as my senses were always enough to know there is a difference.

 

I don;t know what you mean by properly used but your force feeding a plant when you use chem nutes, same with chelated organic nutes and it's easy to use more than the plant would.  I think it produces more dense veg matter and not as much in the way of cannabinoids, that's what it's designed for. The plant has no choice but to uptake the nutrient solution if it's thirsty.  It's the same reason that wild ginsing root commands a higher price than farmed.  The ginsinoid levels are thru the roof compared to farmed ginsing.  Because when farming your growing for bulk mass not ginsinoid content.  When your talking about smoking medicine you want the highest concentration of cannabinoids and lowest veg material.  I test in the top 15% with my lowest cannabinoid testing plant and top 8% for my highest of 3 tests. And the next 3 tests I expect 2 to be in the top 3%. The only reason I can think is that this is america and we overdo everything.  If people use near the levels of nutes on the bottles and don't cut their soil they'll never flush enough to get the ferts out of their soils before harvest.  My plants show deficiencies and didn't get fed 1/4 the strength and # of times on the label.  And now they don't get anything but pure water.  The only study I've seen that compares in my mind was the ginsinoid study and the levels found in American farmed and wild.  It would explain the cannabinoid difference and would align with the Asian? demand for wild for health concerns over farmed and would confirm that your smoking more vegetation and chemicals in unflushed overfed cannabis if my looking over Iron Labs testing results is correct.  Would it be that much to create health concerns?  I don't know of any studies.  I do trust my taste and reaction to unflushed stuff and chem grown according to the label on the bottle stuff.  Sorry, just my opinion.  I'm not saying the studies or me studying Iron labs tests proves anything.  It's just my opinion.

[Restorium2]

I don;t know what you mean by properly used but your force feeding a plant when you use chem nutes

Absolutely not true. There is no reason to think that someone is force feeding a plant because of the type of nutes they use. It's really easy to watch your plants and understand the signs of having the perfect amount of nutes regardless of the type of nutes you are using. I use all different kinds of nutes and I can use them all proficiently without any force feeding at all. You are perpetuating a myth started by folks who want to say what they are doing is better than what someone else is doing for no real reason other than to somehow show they are better than some other folks. It's just BS advertising really. It's as bad as a bad study. Perpetuating these myths is harmful to everybody pro cannabis related, and it plays into the anti cannabis players hand. Edited June 14, 2014 by Restorium2

[Restorium2]

I didn't know NASA smoked.

It doesn't matter if NASA smokes or not. They use chemical salt nutes to do the most advanced grows to feed people. They analyze every piece of produce they grow to check for residual nutes and there never is any because it's not too hard to have them gone if you know how to use nutes correctly.

[Restorium2]

It's the same reason that wild ginsing root commands a higher price than farmed.  The ginsinoid levels are thru the roof compared to farmed ginsing.  Because when farming your growing for bulk mass not ginsinoid content.

You can get the same amount of cannabinoids from cannabis grown with chemical salt nutes as you can with any other kind of nutes. Ginsing grows much differently than cannabis and there isn't a whole lot you can cross reference between the two.

[Norby]

Absolutely not true. There is no reason to think that someone is force feeding a plant because of the type of nutes they use. It's really easy to watch your plants and understand the signs of having the perfect amount of nutes regardless of the type of nutes you are using. I use all different kinds of nutes and I can use them all proficiently without any force feeding at all. You are perpetuating a myth started by folks who want to say what they are doing is better than what someone else is doing for no real reason other than to somehow show they are better than some other folks. It's just BS advertising really. It's as bad as a bad study. Perpetuating these myths is harmful to everybody pro cannabis related, and it plays into the anti cannabis players hand.

So they can uptake the water and leave the nutes behind when they are mixed together and heavily chelated? Sorry I didn't know that. Where did you get your info from? 

Maybe easy for you not so easy for others as I have tasted. And as for playing into the hands of anti cannabis players, prove me wrong.  Sorry I don't "tow the line".  If you mix your nutes with water the plant has no choice but to drink it.  If some get left behind they just build up in the soil so that the next batch is saltier.  By definition you are force feeding if you chelate and mix your nutes with the water.

[Norby]

It doesn't matter if NASA smokes or not. They use chemical salt nutes to do the most advanced grows to feed people. They analyze every piece of produce they grow to check for residual nutes and there never is any because it's not too hard to have them gone if you know how to use nutes correctly.

So you can compare vegetables grown by NASA to be EATEN to cannabis but not ginsing which is medicinal?

[Norby]

You can get the same amount of cannabinoids from cannabis grown with chemical salt nutes as you can with any other kind of nutes. Ginsing grows much differently than cannabis and there isn't a whole lot you can cross reference between the two.

I agree that you CAN but there is more harm if the chem salts are left behind than there are if there are organics left in the soil.  Why do chemical salts kill off the microlife in the soil but organics don't?  You think they are the same? You can think whatever you want.

[Restorium2]

I agree that you CAN but there is more harm if the chem salts are left behind than there are if there are organics left in the soil.  Why do chemical salts kill off the microlife in the soil but organics don't?  You think they are the same? You can think whatever you want.

You can easily kill microlife with organic compounds. Anyone can mess up a grow. There are a lot of ways to do it. Using chemical salts for nutes doesn't have anything to do with messing up a grow. It's a perfectly fine way to grow great meds and food crops. It's nothing new at all. Everyone should understand this. There is nothing wrong with using chemical salts for growing. Most everything you eat is grown using chemical salts. I use both organic nutes and chemical salt nutes and you can't tell the difference in the final product, it's all good! Just like I grow in soil, hydro, and aero, it's all good!

If you are trying to carve yourself out a niche in the market by calling what you grow organic that is fine. But it's not cool to cut someone else down in doing this. It's really not cool to spread a bunch of confusion in the process that scares patients into not taking a caregiver because they grow with chemical salts and don't lie and say their plants are grown 100% organic.

[bobandtorey]

I would like to agree that if anyone wants to grow good cannabis then follow all the above post but if someone wants to grow great cannabis PM me

[Restorium2]

So you can compare vegetables grown by NASA to be EATEN to cannabis but not ginsing which is medicinal?

Exactly. If NASA can grow spinach with no residuals then you can grow cannabis the same way with no residuals. Give the Ginsing analogy a rest because it's a bad one.

[Norby]

I don't see any proof, just ranting. There a more ways to mess up a grow with chem nutes.  You can think whatever you want. And sorry, ginsing compares better to cannabis than vegetables.  It's quite obvious, so I'll keep using it.  your trying to concentrate medicinal compounds in ginsing, you are not in vegetables.  Well you used to but then they started picking veggie varieties to pick well and stay fresh and not for vit and mineral content anymore, so I guess they do compare, just not as well.  It's the same with using chemical nutes.  You use them to bulk up your veggies, not to provide better mineral content.  If not then we'd still be farming organic.  As I said i believe what I've tasted and experienced.  If you have any real info then by all means provide it.  If not we can go on with this he said, he said all day and I don't have the time.

[Restorium2]

So they can uptake the water and leave the nutes behind when they are mixed together and heavily chelated? Sorry I didn't know that. Where did you get your info from? 

Maybe easy for you not so easy for others as I have tasted. And as for playing into the hands of anti cannabis players, prove me wrong.  Sorry I don't "tow the line".  If you mix your nutes with water the plant has no choice but to drink it.  If some get left behind they just build up in the soil so that the next batch is saltier.  By definition you are force feeding if you chelate and mix your nutes with the water.

Plants pick what they want to eat out of a nutrient solution. You can steer this by altering your PH. I like to let the PH drift so that the plants can uptake a variety of nutes as the PH fluctuates. If you add too much nutes to the solution the plant quits eating. It's called nute lock out.

[Restorium2]

I don't see any proof, just ranting. There a more ways to mess up a grow with chem nutes.  You can think whatever you want. And sorry, ginsing compares better to cannabis than vegetables.  It's quite obvious, so I'll keep using it.  your trying to concentrate medicinal compounds in ginsing, you are not in vegetables.  Well you used to but then they started picking veggie varieties to pick well and stay fresh and not for vit and mineral content anymore, so I guess they do compare, just not as well.  It's the same with using chemical nutes.  You use them to bulk up your veggies, not to provide better mineral content.  If not then we'd still be farming organic.  As I said i believe what I've tasted and experienced.  If you have any real info then by all means provide it.  If not we can go on with this he said, he said all day and I don't have the time.

No rant at all. Just calm and cool, tried and true advice. Testing has proven that the cannabinoids that are normally tested for are in the same ranges for organic and chemical salt nutes if the plants are grown well.

 

Show me the life cycle of ginseng as compared to cannabis and you will see the HUGE difference.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Restorium2

[Norby]

good for you.  Do you have any proof on that?  The way I understood it is that they take as much as they can and they quite drinking and die if the salts build up that much.  Then they can never get pure water without salts being dissolved into it. So your saying it just locks up and all they can drink is water with all those salts in the mix?  If I'm wrong I'll admit but the way I understood it is that when the salts get too hi the plant can't get clean water and lockout means they can't uptake water, not nutes.

 

And I never say my plants are 100% organic, that would be a lie.  The only thing I use that's not organic is the cloning solution and whatever else I may have been lied to about by a company.  I am, however, as close as I can get.  And it's up to the patients to decide who they want as their caregiver and who they'll trust.  I'm glad you think I have so much influence over people choosing their caregivers but it's just not true.  I call it as I see it, if you have proof otherwise by all means show me.

[Norby]

No rant at all. Just calm and cool, tried and true advice. Testing has proven that the cannabinoids that are normally tested for are in the same ranges for organic and chemical salt nutes if the plants are grown well.

 

Show me the life cycle of ginseng as compared to cannabis and you will see the HUGE difference.

I'm not saying if the plants were grown well without overfertilizing, I'm saying it's easier to overfertilize with chem nutes.  I didn't say that too lo ph on organics wouldn't kill microlife, I'm talking about the chem salts being incompatible with the microlife in the container.  They can't survive with it in the soil, it's not the same.

And I'd like to see the data. People who use chem nutes are more apt to go for production than cannabinoid content.  It's the whole reason we switched to chem nutes for veggies.  Because it produces more tonnage.  It's just not that easy to "bulk" up with organics.

 

The life cycle of ginsing is the same as cannabis, it grows and dies.  If it grows too fast it doesn't produce the ginsinoid levels that one that grew slower would produce.  SAme life cycle as some of the veggies(root) that your comparing to.  Although ginsing does produce medicinal compounds, same as cannabis.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Norby

[Restorium2]

I'm not saying if the plants were grown well without overfertilizing, I'm saying it's easier to overfertilize with chem nutes.  I didn't say that too lo ph on organics wouldn't kill microlife, I'm talking about the chem salts being incompatible with the microlife in the container.  They can't survive with it in the soil, it's not the same.

And I'd like to see the data. People who use chem nutes are more apt to go for production than cannabinoid content.  It's the whole reason we switched to chem nutes for veggies.  Because it produces more tonnage.  It's just not that easy to "bulk" up with organics.

 

The life cycle of ginsing is the same as cannabis, it grows and dies.  If it grows too fast it doesn't produce the ginsinoid levels that one that grew slower would produce.  SAme life cycle as some of the veggies(root) that your comparing to.  Although ginsing does produce medicinal compounds, same as cannabis.

You can overfertilize easily with organic nutes too.

 

You are trying to tell us that your cannabis grows the same as ginsing?????

 

Ginseng begins life as a seed, dispersed inside the berry in fall, and remains in the soil through through at least two winters (sometimes 3, 4 or 5) prior to germination in spring. Ginseng may remain a 1 leaf plant for several years as it accumulates enough stored reserves to grow into a 2 leaf, adolescent ginseng. A 2 leaf ginseng plant may develop flowers and seeds, but reproduction is intermittent and low. Ginseng remains in this 2 leaf stage for another 3-5 years before developing into a large adult plant (typically with 3 leaves), which may in old age eventually have 4, or rarely 5 leaves.1 These large adult plants are the primary targets of harvest.

[t-pain]

all i know is i bought ginseng seeds once but the plants never grew.

 

http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/sourcefiles/UMHS-Information-for-Clinicians-on-the-Michigan-Medical-Marijuana-Program.pdf

 

(2) The following nonpharmacological therapies have been shown to be very effective
for treating many types of chronic pain and should generally be used prior to using
marijuana: (1) education, (2) exercise and physical therapy, and (3) cognitive
behavioral therapy.

 

got chronic pain? just take a class! that will get rid of your pain right there! thanks university of michigan health systems.

 

previous marijuana studies by UofM are mostly focused on the 'monitoring the future' project , granted by NIDA.

theres a few uofm doctors working on marijuana studies done in california. but i dont see many done by UofM. maybe i am searching badly.

[phaquetoo]

One thing we alll need to remember is the nute company's are in business to make money! and yes most strains will grow with the recipee they put on the bottle, I started out using the directions on the nute bottles (gnc) and quickly began to scratch my head and wonder what the hell am I doing wrong? I tested all 3 of the nutes in the gnc to see how it effected the ppm's and the ph, plus I was using promix, I soon started to cut the nutes way down and I watered my promix for a few wks before puting  plants in them, I started to get more productive plants, I also watered my plants with the mixture I was happy with for 2 waterings and every 3rd watering I only used ph'd water, and I do that thru out the plant life.

 

my c.g dont flush his plants, I do, he gives me clones, we usualy are growing the same plants, Mine always taiste better, im not saying that mine is better as far as the results I feel when I medicate, but the taiste and ease on my lungs are always better with my plants than his, and man while curing, and after cured you can most def tell the difference in smell and taiste, that is what I get from what we do, I dont need any one to test it for me, other than put the same strain next to each other and do a taiste test, mine will win every time compared to his not flushed, net dryed and not cured!

 

and neither one of us use the nutes as directed, we both use less and add as needed. and we both use promix.

 

Peace

[Norby]

You can overfertilize easily with organic nutes too.

 

You are trying to tell us that your cannabis grows the same as ginsing?????

 

Ginseng begins life as a seed, dispersed inside the berry in fall, and remains in the soil through through at least two winters (sometimes 3, 4 or 5) prior to germination in spring. Ginseng may remain a 1 leaf plant for several years as it accumulates enough stored reserves to grow into a 2 leaf, adolescent ginseng. A 2 leaf ginseng plant may develop flowers and seeds, but reproduction is intermittent and low. Ginseng remains in this 2 leaf stage for another 3-5 years before developing into a large adult plant (typically with 3 leaves), which may in old age eventually have 4, or rarely 5 leaves.1 These large adult plants are the primary targets of harvest.

Every person I knew that switched from chem to organics lost yield and gained quality, measurable in the taste, burn and hi or lo.  If you want me to give up my experiences and what my senses tell me you should have better info.  I'm no chemist and these are personal experiences and friends experiences.  If yours are different, great(go figure, different experiences on the internet).

 

And Hops and hemp are closely related(in the same family).  Hops takes years to produce a rhizome(root) structure that is large and hops is a perennial and generally doesn't produce seed till the second year(possibly longer from seeds, I didn't dig that far).  It is more like ginseng.  I was a botanist in 3 states before this so I have some knowledge, definitely not infallable by any means.  I didn't say they were the same things in the way they grow and mature just that they follow the same pattern.  They grow and they die and the more nutes you feed them the more plant material you get and the less medicinal compounds in relation to the weight of either the flower or root.  Medicinal compounds are produced for survival.  If a plant is being fed more than it needs it will put that energy towards plant mass and seed production. If it is well cared for and not lacking for nutrients it won't put as much energy towards protecting itself. You seem to be missing the point of the analogy.  It's the same as saying vegetable studies prove studies for pot.  It's a concept we're talking about neither are "the same thing".  This is the way I see it.  If you have any other info I'll gladly change my view.  It has to be good though since every sense and experience has shown me that it's easier to get good meds from organics than chem nutes.  Maybe the organics companies didn't up the recommended doses as much as the chems.  I'm not saying you can't or that it's strictly the organics versus chem(although that's what I suspect esp since organics don't read the same way for EC in hydro since they are proteins instead of chelated?).  I'm saying it's harder, that's all.  That's my view.  Sorry you have a problem with another experience existing alongside yours, but that's my view and I'm sticking to it unless better info is presented.

  I'd like to learn more about it if I could get a research grant and set up experiments.

[Restorium2]

I am thinking of making a new topic for these nutrient-solution posts, what should be the title?

There is no intrinsic health difference between salt-based and organic nutrients.

[Norby]

Again, this is ridiculously off-topic for this thread, but many, many new growers misuse salt-based nutrients by making a high-concentration solution, most times according to the instructions on the bottle, or a dumb recipe on the internet tuned to someone else's grow room and/ or plant strains. Additionally, top-feeding of salt-based nutrients without sufficient runoff can cause salt-buildup, and severe increases in solution concentration in the root zone, which require frequent flushing, really leaching, during the cycle to avoid buildup.

 

To avoid flushing when top-feeding, you must feed a balanced nutrient solution, draining to waste. Any other method will require frequent leaching during the growing cycle, not just at the end, to keep things proper in the root zone. The nutrient solution concentration must be tuned to the plants within the environment of the room, with lower concentrations for hotter rooms with natural ventilation, and higher concentrations for rooms with augmented CO₂.

 

The overall concentration of the nutrient solution can be tuned by measuring the runoff of the solution after watering, with a high-concentration in the runoff indicating a lower-concentration needed in the solution, and a low-concentration runoff indicating a higher-concentration needed in the solution. While measuring runoff is not perfectly accurate, if you are draining to waste daily, it gets very close. The solution concentration should be within a few hundred PPM of the runoff solution to ensure that the plants are taking up the nutrients you are giving.

 

By measuring the runoff of the solution, you will see that you are not "forcing" the plant to take up anything, with the possible exception of Nitrogen. Those who try to force feed their plants will end up with salt-buildup (overfeeding) from unconsumed nutrients.

 

It takes a lot of expertise to keep the solution in the right zone in a recirculating system, but some do it successfully. Drain-to-waste is easier for new growers, and probably less wasteful, overall.

 

Though it is less likely using organic nutrients, it is possible to overfeed, because organic systems are simply employing microbes to create the nutrition for the plant; plants CANNOT use organic nutrients directly. Normally this happens when the grower is artificially boosting the microbe population by feeding excessive sugar.

 

There is no intrinsic health difference between salt-based and organic nutrients. In the end, the plant takes up the same ions, regardless of the source. Overfeeding is a severe problem which profoundly effects the quality of the harvest, moreso than any other issue.

Got most of that as I'm no chemist.  There are a couple questions I have.  If there is any nutrient in the runoff wouldn't that lead to excess nutes building up?  If I tried to drain to waste everyday my plants would surely die from overwatering.  Are you talking clay pebbles or something that doesn't absorb water? My fault your talking hydro.  I'm argueing soil.  Don't you think it'd be easier to build up in soil as opposed to something that can easily be flushed?

 

I think there are other non-nutrients that lead to difference in taste and possibly effect. For instance, if I don't add cowshit there is a different taste to my buds.  Same with earthworm castings and bloodmeal.  Same if I add alfalfa.  I just can't grasp that there would be studies that could account for all the different compounds, molecules, Ions or whatever that is added by microlife feeding the plants as opposed to a basic macro and micro nutrient synthetic.  I do appreciate the education on it from someone who understands the chemistry.

 

I'd call the topic Organics vs. Chemical fertilizers: is there a difference?

 

Also, why are liquid organic fertilizers heavily chelated if they can't be taken up like a synthetic fertilizer without the aid of the microlife?

Edited June 14, 2014 by Norby

[Restorium2]

Every strain has a 'greatest potential'. That greatest potential can be reached through different growing techniques and different fertilizers. To say one is better than another just shows that you have not excelled at the one you say is inferior.