The Agony Of Defeat - What Now?

[Restorium2]

Then there is hope? I was under the impression the MSC's refusal to hear Caruthers settled the concentrates issue as being outside section 4. I'd be very pleased to be mistaken on this account!

You should have a little more faith in what Zap says. I don't think he would have brought it up if there wasn't a possible avenue. He's in a position to know.

[t-pain]

Then there is hope? I was under the impression the MSC's refusal to hear Caruthers settled the concentrates issue as being outside section 4. I'd be very pleased to be mistaken on this account!

 

yes there is hope. carruthers msc appeal only had one question.

 

the case needs to appeal again with more questions on the coa ruling. asking the msc if the coa erred when it came to the conclusion that carruthers made his brownies with resin from the marihuana stalks.

 

but i am pretty sure 2.5oz of "usable marihuana" means 2.5 oz of brownie, which means hes over his weight limit anyway and needs a sec8. does that make it non-appealable? i dont know court rules on this.

 

so probably the clear case is a better one to appeal, and when appealing, make sure you argue that the oil was made from dried flowers

Edited December 28, 2014 by t-pain

[bobandtorey]

The  C.O.A has not been good at all for the most part unless you read our case but it seams to get over looked some how or just maybe am reading into it more because it's about us

 

It does say you don't need a card but must have your Doctors Recommendation before Growing,and using Cannabis and the Court has said it time after time 

 

I would never tell anyone not to get a caed knowing what i know today want to stay with-end Sec 4 and only use Sec 8 if you must 

 

A few  years ago i though Sec 8 was all anyone had because Sec 4 says you can't be arrested ( No Court ) so why would someone need Sec 4

[Cap'N Kush]

I can't read all of this, but there was one point. That Zap made.

 

That full legal wouldnt solve the problems CG's and Pataints encounter.

 

But what if, the overages could be sold for rec.

 

Then the pataints can smoke for free, and the extra can be sold to stoners.

 

That's what all the darn pataints want anyways.

 

Every ones happy, Cg's can get paid, Paitaints smoke for free, Pot Shops make a killing, and the government gets the tax's.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

Or if full legal is really that bad, why not just gather sigs for Disp?

[trichcycler]

Would allowing a dispensary to sell mj to more than the five patients named on their card require a change in our Act, and subsequently allow all caregivers to do the same?

[Quadcarl]

I can't read all of this, but there was one point. That Zap made.

That full legal wouldnt solve the problems CG's and Pataints encounter.

But what if, the overages could be sold for rec.

Then the pataints can smoke for free, and the extra can be sold to stoners.

That's what all the darn pataints want anyways.

Every ones happy, Cg's can get paid, Paitaints smoke for free, Pot Shops make a killing, and the government gets the tax's.

I'm sure I'm missing something.

Or if full legal is really that bad, why not just gather sigs for Disp?

You keep suggesting extras should be sold to "stoners" That is 100% illegal and exactly why Colorado is being sued by Nebraska and Oklahoma.

 

You might not know my background but I'm a quadriplegic MMJ patient.

 

I DO NOT WANT NOR EXPECT FREE MEDS. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It takes a wealth of knowledge, time, and courage to be a caregiver. Not to mention the price of lights, fans, electricity, and other infrastructure costs associated with being a caregiver. My caregiver is one of the most generous and polite people I've had the pleasure of getting to know. I would never want him risking his morals or freedom by committing illegal activities, especially providing for anyone besides his allotted patients.

 

Money is never part of the discussion or asked for between us, and the most important task at hand is maintaining an uninterrupted supply of medicine by knowing and growing the right amount. I do not consume 12 plants per harvest so he wisely doesn't grow 12 plants for me. Then there's no "extras" laying around which is what the law and the naysayers want.

 

So, even though I live on a fixed income, as im sure many patients do, I have no problem with donating to the cost of my MMJ.

 

I have a strong suspicion that I'm not the only patient that feels this way and many caregivers as well.

 

I've been reading this website daily for 6 months now, I've read a lot of horror stories that make a lot of chatter. But I'd like to believe my situation is more the norm.

 

So please, on behalf of the patients and caregivers and myself, stop suggesting that patients want their meds for free.

 

P.S. 80% of what I recieve is "free" technically, I just felt this mindset needed addressing.

 

Stay positive and active in the MMJ community everybody:)

[trichcycler]

thank you QC for sharing those feelings.

I think you would be a fine patient in my registry

and am happy to hear you've found a cg who

represents properly.

 

non solus es

[Cap'N Kush]

QC that's AWSOME you and your CG have that relationship.

 

But you also said that you reseave 80% of your meds for free.

 

I've did the math, and I have also grown, for quite a bit of time, and have also used almost every nute line available.

 

According to the law, and everybody hear can agree. That a CG is intended to be compensated for there time. Am I correct?

 

Let's say a CG has 5 Paitaints.

Let's break down the cost.

Aptus line ( hands done the best ) $650

Nector base $200

That's $850 in Nutes alone.

2 1k lights 2 t5's and cooling cost around $500.00

Soil about 8 bags at $160.00

Now we're at $1410.00

Rapid rooters and clonex gel plus solution another $100.00 now we're at

$1510.00

 

An that's not includeing organic pesticides, and probably a multitude of other things that just pop up. Like O I gotta get this. Probably like another $100.00 or 2.

 

What about gentics? We're talking a hole other ball park there. Whether it's seeds or clones. I have seen prices upwards of $5000.00 for a pack of seeds? Most Elite seeds are going to go for $250.00 to $800.00. Maybe $150.00 sometimes. BLAH!

 

Now the question is whats the CG's time, knowladge and gentics worth?

 

Can a low income disabled person afford $420.00 a month for 2.5 ounces ? Thats assuming the CG, thinks his time is only worth $500.00 a month. Walmart pays better than that. So does McDonald's? But we're talking CG's I mean, they sit around on the lazy arse growing pot instead of working. Right? So WTF should they make more than a burger flipper at McDonald's. But hay no one says anything about the doctors, taking 30 frigon mintutes and charging a $100.00 bucks for a MED cert.

 

Is being a caregiver a Business? Or is being a care giver like I can't think of the word, but one of those people that work for free, out of the kindness of there heart to help people. Which is great not knocking it. But seriously? Isn't a CG intitled a little more?

 

I understand, that it's not suppose to be for profit, and it's about helping people. I'm not talking about striking it rich, or makeing a kazillion dollars. Can a care giver, Grow medical Marijuana, and sucussfuly support them selves? Does being a care giver consist of working the garden, and a second mini wage job and still unable to to pay the bills or afford to get groceries? Healthy FOOD. I wait we're all stupid stoners who need to eat Doritos and Caned Cheese, and dollar menu!

 

I don't think that's to much to ask? I personaly can't seem to grasp, why people think it's such a horrible thing to grow marijuana and support yourself.

 

The thing is just to cover the cost, far exceeds what the average pataint can afford. Yea maybe cost could be cut, but ounce you cut cost, quality goes down. That's a FACT! Please don't even argue with me on that. Fox Farm does not produce FIRE! TGA SubCool gentics are Crap. The only way to cut cost would be 600 watt lights. maybe even 400's. That may cut costs buy $200.00.

 

But who gets the saveings, the CG makes 700 or the pataint pays less?

 

We're talking liget here. Since all of you always talk about liget? This is as liget as it gets.

 

Plant numbers at this point, don't even matter. Big plants small plants. It's all about produceing 13 ounce's a month. The cost to produce that, and what the pataint can afford, and how much a PROFESIONAL Care Giver with MEDICAL QUALTIY cannabis and gentics should be compinsated.

 

That's what know one has ever stated, everyone always beats around the bush. It's all BS!

 

If you strip away the BS, there is NO WAY the current system can work. It's all a smoke for free situation. The pataints have a CG that put time / grows and supply's MEDS for next to nothing. Am barly covering the cost. Investing in grow equipment and genetics, knowlade, time, building a space to grow medical quality cannabis. ALL cost money. An spending money means there needs to BE A RETURN!

 

Unless it a HOBBY!

 

Why the hell Am I such a bad guy, for wanting to grow cannabis, have 5 Pataint that I supply for FREE becouse they can't frigon afford it, and dump the rest off at a dispeneriry for Pataints that can't find quality meds or just like to sample the weres.

 

With that said, I DONT do that. I just want to. I wouldn't step foot into a dispensary. No WAY!

 

The cost to produce, and what a Pataint can afford, is we're I see a problem. If a CG, was allowed to sell to any Pataint. That could solve the problem. But there NOT!

 

The current system, cuases major problims. It strips away, PROFESIONAL care givers, a leaves only CG's that have additional moneys comeing in from other sources.

 

Forces other wise legal CG's into the black MARKIT to cover cost,

 

And leaves pataints with out CG's buying from over priced drug dealers.

 

It pretty much leaves only hobby growers who can afford to grow for free. That's who's legal. An I'm sorry, but I seriously DOUGT. That that's the majority of CG / Pataint Relationships.

 

Trying to convince me other wise is laughable at best. Sorry!

[Cap'N Kush]

Snap, I didn't even mention bulbs, at 180 or something a peace. That need to be replaced every 9 months.

[Cap'N Kush]

What it really boils down to. You can't put a square peg into a round hole. An that's exactly what the supreme court and the mi legislator has done to the mm law.

 

Look, I just want to recoup my cost on this darn grow equipment, and it ain't happening with 5 Paitaints on disability. So if some of you are rich and sick, and can afford smoke more than a ounce a month, I can totaly pass my pataints on to a drug dealer and take you on. Jk jk stand stands for JOKE! Haha funny. Sarcastic.

 

I and don't even get me started on the resale value of equipment. ????????

[Cap'N Kush]

And JUST TO PUT THE ICEING ON THE CAKE.

 

What incentive is there for Pataints to find Law Abiding Caregivers? I mean there are more than plenty giveing away meds for FREE, who then sell there overages to Disp, Or on the black markit.

 

Pataints are protected, they can buy from any one.

 

As a legal Law Abideing Care Giver how THE PHUCK am I suppose to Commpete with that? I know its not a competition. Right!

[Cap'N Kush]

Hears a question for all you legal EXPERTS.

 

Would it be possible, to rotate Pataints? A new pataint every 20 days to sign up, get your meds, sign off sign a new one? If a pataint only smokes a ounce a month, then the rotation should work.

 

Only draw back is it takes 20 days for approval. But f the timeline is right, I suppose it could be done.

 

You guys talk about doing it legally. Let's talk about doing it legally and acualty covering the cost and over head.

 

Seriously?

[Cap'N Kush]

I'd guess it's not really possible!

 

But maybe there is something I have missed SINCE 08! Or maybe I'm retarted.

[trichcycler]

I

"rotate" patients legally.

keep in mind you are the only one with a handle on your expenses. When you invite another patient into your registry

you now realize the importance of a proper interview process. If small deliveries are cost prohibitive you could instead to accept patients that have larger needs for example. If you want to make more than one delivery to each patient those details could be discussed in your initial interview. Its your registry, take ownership.

 

Now, locating those "perfect patients for you" can have varying degrees of difficulty, depending on your expectations, demographics, product quality, availability, and costs.

I can help you lower your costs to the absolute lowest possible operating costs, as a great beginning to a successful garden if you're interested. Keep in mind, even with 5 patients accepting a couple ounces per month, your full garden may still not be "profitable". Growing medical cannabis can be difficult for many, maintaining five stranger patients long term can be more difficult.

 

In my beginnings patient management was difficult for me because I truly thought that all mj users were good solid citizens like myself. I was wrong. (maybe about myself buwahaha!) Before 2008 I honestly never met any mj user that gave me bad vibes. On the contrary, every one since childhood was a unique good character in my life. Then I discovered the reality of the situation, and the many slices of people types participating in the program. I knew I had to reach out to those types I remembered, and found a way to do that successfully. Today patients seek me out based on my ideals and postings. I never have accepted a referral, or a family member, or even a friend, but the majority of my patients have become my friends.

 

Hang in there, represent well, build it, and they will come.

 

peace

 

I have snow bird patients who travel. These patients, depending on their absence, are "cycled" in and out of my registry. Some since 2009 !

[trichcycler]

QC that's AWSOME you and your CG have that relationship.

 

But you also said that you reseave 80% of your meds for free.

 

I've did the math, and I have also grown, for quite a bit of time, and have also used almost every nute line available.

 

According to the law, and everybody hear can agree. That a CG is intended to be compensated for there time. Am I correct?

 

Let's say a CG has 5 Paitaints.

Let's break down the cost.

Aptus line ( hands done the best ) $650

Nector base $200

That's $850 in Nutes alone.

2 1k lights 2 t5's and cooling cost around $500.00

Soil about 8 bags at $160.00

Now we're at $1410.00

Rapid rooters and clonex gel plus solution another $100.00 now we're at

$1510.00

 

An that's not includeing organic pesticides, and probably a multitude of other things that just pop up. Like O I gotta get this. Probably like another $100.00 or 2.

 

What about gentics? We're talking a hole other ball park there. Whether it's seeds or clones. I have seen prices upwards of $5000.00 for a pack of seeds? Most Elite seeds are going to go for $250.00 to $800.00. Maybe $150.00 sometimes. BLAH!

 

Now the question is whats the CG's time, knowladge and gentics worth?

 

Can a low income disabled person afford $420.00 a month for 2.5 ounces ? Thats assuming the CG, thinks his time is only worth $500.00 a month. Walmart pays better than that. So does McDonald's? But we're talking CG's I mean, they sit around on the lazy arse growing pot instead of working. Right? So WTF should they make more than a burger flipper at McDonald's. But hay no one says anything about the doctors, taking 30 frigon mintutes and charging a $100.00 bucks for a MED cert.

 

Is being a caregiver a Business? Or is being a care giver like I can't think of the word, but one of those people that work for free, out of the kindness of there heart to help people. Which is great not knocking it. But seriously? Isn't a CG intitled a little more?

 

I understand, that it's not suppose to be for profit, and it's about helping people. I'm not talking about striking it rich, or makeing a kazillion dollars. Can a care giver, Grow medical Marijuana, and sucussfuly support them selves? Does being a care giver consist of working the garden, and a second mini wage job and still unable to to pay the bills or afford to get groceries? Healthy FOOD. I wait we're all stupid stoners who need to eat Doritos and Caned Cheese, and dollar menu!

 

I don't think that's to much to ask? I personaly can't seem to grasp, why people think it's such a horrible thing to grow marijuana and support yourself.

 

The thing is just to cover the cost, far exceeds what the average pataint can afford. Yea maybe cost could be cut, but ounce you cut cost, quality goes down. That's a FACT! Please don't even argue with me on that. Fox Farm does not produce FIRE! TGA SubCool gentics are Crap. The only way to cut cost would be 600 watt lights. maybe even 400's. That may cut costs buy $200.00.

 

But who gets the saveings, the CG makes 700 or the pataint pays less?

 

We're talking liget here. Since all of you always talk about liget? This is as liget as it gets.

 

Plant numbers at this point, don't even matter. Big plants small plants. It's all about produceing 13 ounce's a month. The cost to produce that, and what the pataint can afford, and how much a PROFESIONAL Care Giver with MEDICAL QUALTIY cannabis and gentics should be compinsated.

 

That's what know one has ever stated, everyone always beats around the bush. It's all BS!

 

If you strip away the BS, there is NO WAY the current system can work. It's all a smoke for free situation. The pataints have a CG that put time / grows and supply's MEDS for next to nothing. Am barly covering the cost. Investing in grow equipment and genetics, knowlade, time, building a space to grow medical quality cannabis. ALL cost money. An spending money means there needs to BE A RETURN!

 

Unless it a HOBBY!

 

Why the hell Am I such a bad guy, for wanting to grow cannabis, have 5 Pataint that I supply for FREE becouse they can't frigon afford it, and dump the rest off at a dispeneriry for Pataints that can't find quality meds or just like to sample the weres.

 

With that said, I DONT do that. I just want to. I wouldn't step foot into a dispensary. No WAY!

 

The cost to produce, and what a Pataint can afford, is we're I see a problem. If a CG, was allowed to sell to any Pataint. That could solve the problem. But there NOT!

 

The current system, cuases major problims. It strips away, PROFESIONAL care givers, a leaves only CG's that have additional moneys comeing in from other sources.

 

Forces other wise legal CG's into the black MARKIT to cover cost,

 

And leaves pataints with out CG's buying from over priced drug dealers.

 

It pretty much leaves only hobby growers who can afford to grow for free. That's who's legal. An I'm sorry, but I seriously DOUGT. That that's the majority of CG / Pataint Relationships.

 

Trying to convince me other wise is laughable at best. Sorry!

now wait a minute !! there is not one cannabis cup winner costing more than 15 bucks a piece per seed including shipping, and there are some fire genetic to be had in those packs. TGA Subcool gear is not crap, and those nutes are not the best.

 

Do you believe someone else forced you to become a cg? Did you check the market before deciding to invest in grow equipment? You could just grow for yourself you know? What forces you to take losses by registering patients? Not sure but I bet a lot of those "stupid stoners" you speak of experience similar results as you.

Badmouthing cg's, nute lines, breeders, patients, ??? really ?......be the change you wish to see my man.

[Quadcarl]

It seems you're in it to make money and not have to have a regular job. That's cool and I'm not knocking that but understand MONEY IS NEVER AN ISSUE.

 

My cg enjoys his carreer which is not growing MMJ. As you stated it doesn't require non stop attention to produce professional quality grade A top shelf MMJ. Any business has start up costs, you don't need to recoup 100% the cost of gear every harvest obviously.

 

Oh yeah, my cg never needs to use pesticides or herbicides or fungicide. It's hydro and not truley organic but pretty darn close, so costs are non existent in some departments you struggle with.

 

A person is as successful as those they surround themselves with

[+Malamute]

I can teach a patient how to sustain themselves for under $500(even less depending on needs), with a minimal monthly upkeep.

 

 Sometimes I wonder why people choose to spend so much money growing.  Especially when it seems that the money is so vastly important to them.

 

 Fancy bottles and fancy systems are not needed to grow the best. :-)

[Restorium2]

Ah, but when you master the fancy bottles and systems you can be a Ninja Grower, stealth and powerful. lol

[+Malamute]

Hahah,... there is nothing wrong with using them,... but I do not understand using them if money is such a concern. They aren't needed, it is a preference that happens to cost more money.

 

Edit add:  I must add, most patients I know use, in general, around 1-2 oz a month.  The cost of a system to produce 2 oz a month is and can be done really cheap.  REALLY cheap. :-)

 

The system I recommend for under $500 should be putting out 4+ oz a month on a bad month. 

 

This isn't about what is best or better or more efficient or maximizing,... it is just about that some people spend a ton of money on growing then expect their patients to compensate their extravagance. :-)

[Restorium2]

My friend Swampy once told me, well he told me a bunch of times, that he grew marijuana in a jail light fixture using his own urine as nutes.... 

[Restorium2]

If the fancy lights, systems, and bottles don't pull their weight they get kicked to the curb without a wimper. Who cries about their failed experiments? Who charges others for them? They should get kicked to the curb also.

[+Malamute]

[imiubu]

Wow, if I were to base my decision to try to grow my own medicine on the op's cost analysis, I would have

definitely been scared off even trying.

 

Luckily, even as a newbie I know my cost all included thus far, come no where near those exorbitant costs.

 

I mixed a boat load of soil last week that will take care of all my planting needs for a long while to come for

under $100, including my tea amendments.  Granted, I am a newb and I am certain I will cut my costs next round as

I find better sources for my overall supplies.

I am not saying there is not investments to be made of course but the op's cost is insane imho.

 

Anyone want some brand new bottles of nutes? lol

Edited January 28, 2015 by imiubu

[+Malamute]

It always makes me sad when I see people taking advantage of novices/n00bs getting them to spend 2000 bux for a personal grow.  I see this happen so often in hydro stores. I understand upsale,  but I also understand how poor most patients are and how much sacrifice it takes to afford to spend $2000+ on what they think is the minimum needed to grow.  Yea sure,... the aero cloner is nice,.. but unneeded.  The flood table is nice,.. but wtvr.  Ya know what I mean.

 

A light, a few buckets, a bale of soil and some dry nutes bought at the mill,  you are off tot he races. :-)

[Willy]

Totally Disagree with you Capn,  I know initially it does cost a lot to setup your grow room, but look at constants and variables first, 

 

Aptus line ( hands done the best ) $650
Nector base $200
That's $850 in Nutes alone.
2 1k lights 2 t5's and cooling cost around $500.00
Soil about 8 bags at $160.00
Now we're at $1410.00
Rapid rooters and clonex gel plus solution another $100.00 now we're at
$1510.00

 

 

Now compare that to more economical choices, 

 

Nutrient : HOUSE and Garden - 800. good for 3 months

Soil How about using Pro mix, 30. bail lasts approx 3 full runs...

Lights, 5k at 120 per light, 600. plus bulbs at 29.00 ea. HPS and MH , runnin electric is approx 50. ea so 300. a month

call miscellaneous costs 300.  so a total of  1880 approx.. 

now break that down over 4 months.. your cost is now 660 s month.. 

 

Now take your yield,, lets just say 4 zips per plant and only flower out 4 per period,,1 lb....now thats 3200 @ 200. oz divided by minus your monthly costs, its approx 600.00 a month right, your profit margin is easy 2k monthly... your 5 patients use at least 2 oz a month.. because at the cost of production,, you can supply them at 150. oz ,, your cost to produce would be lower over the grow period,, and you can still make living expenses/growing costs.. my math says 1500. monthly after all costs output, and giving the patient a fair price.. so they can afford 2.5 oz a month.. well two for cost and a half for free.. 

I dont see that would to darn hard to do.. and still make some cash.. I have done it for the last 6 years.. I have found the longer you run the more economical it becomes.. just to add to this, it dont need to be the high dollar stuff.. its a weed man, it grows well with minimal work..

 

But dont expect to run away and retire in a year  aint happening.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Willy