Powdery Mildew In A Perpetual Grow

[Norby]

First off PM IS NOT systemic.  I've read A LOT over the last few days and I have not found one shred of evidence it is systemic.  It can survive on small parts of the plants that don't get sprayed.

 

Secondly, PM that affects cannabis is the only PM that affects cannabis and hops.  If you destroy it, it can't come back.

I have had PM before in a shed and got rid of the plants and didn't even spray the place down and it never came back.  The conditions were right for it though.  Your clover can be covered in PM and you can roll your mj plants in it and they won't get PM.

 

Third, the spores are not everywhere.  Mold spores, PM spores, etc. are everywhere but not necessarily MJ PM spores.  I have had the same conditions for 25 years and only got PM twice.  The fungus spread because it was introduced and it can be eradicated.

 

Fourth, Potassium Bicarbonate will explode the PM cells and spores.  When a spore comes into contact with Potassium salts it destroys the cell.  Some plants are very susceptible such that if a spore lands on them they are done, the disease will progress because the plant has thin cell walls and no defense.  Some plants can live with an infection that doesn't spread on that plant or be very visible and if it produces one spore that gets on a non resistant variety it will explode from there.  And some plants cell walls are thick enough that the plant can't be infected unless it's compromised(sick, injured, etc.)

 

Is it something that can be easier dealt with with eagle 20?  Of course, because that's systemic.  It MAKES the plant immune long enough to outlive the spores being blown around.  Can you get rid of it without, of course you can.  Is it easy?  NO.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Norby

[Norby]

I just put down more Presidential Kush seeds since I cut out the plants I did.  I have one that was infected on the lower leaves and I sprayed with Potassium Bicarbonate.  I'll put it in an aquarium and seal it up with hi humidity and see if it comes back.

[trichcycler]

baking soda and oil ! good link WB! op was on top of it!

 

"combined with a lightweight horticultural oil (Sunspray). Researchers at Cornell University have discovered the fungicidal properties of this combination against powdery mildew on roses. Applications of one tablespoon baking soda plus 2.5 tablespoons of Sunspray oil in 1 gallon of water are still experimental."

 

There are many kinds of powdery mildew fungi, and most are highly specialized. For example, the powdery mildew that infects squash plants will infect other plants in the cucurbit family but will not infect roses, and the powdery mildew from roses will not attack zinnias and vice versa, although the fungus that infects zinnias also infects many other members of the composite family. Powdery mildew fungi are obligate parasites; that is, they can grow only on living plant tissue. When the mildew-infected plant part dies, so does the mildew unless cleistothecia (resting stages of the fungus) are formed.

 

Most powdery mildew fungi grow over the surface of the leaf, sending short food-absorbing projections (haustoria) into the epidermal cells. The fungi produce masses of spores (conidia), which become airborne and spread to other plants. Powdery mildew spores are unique in that they require no external moisture for germination; most other fungi require free water in the form of dew, guttation, rain, or water from overhead irrigation for germination and infection or growth whereas the conidia of powdery mildew (except those that infect grasses) DIE IN WATER. Spores may be dispersed, however, by splashing water. http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280101011.html

 

 

Bleach can kill virtually every species of indoor mold that it comes into contact with, along with its spores, leaving a surface sanitized and resistant to future mold growth.

 

Unfortunately, however, using bleach is only effective if the mold is growing on non-porous materials such as tiles, bathtubs, glass and countertops. http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html

 

Bleach will kill many, but not all spores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)

 

 

Culturing tissue for the last 25 years extensively has afforded me the opportunity to grow dozens of spore types, some on accident, some purposeful. Some identified and some not. Its common to see hundreds of thousands of test tubes go to mold over night. I've never seen one spore survive a drop of bleach in vitro, never. Bleach does not penetrate porous surfaces so its no good for drywall and such, but it certainly kills all 100 hundred varieties of powdery mildew mold spores on contact. I've never heard anyone in my life refute that. Spores are not the fungi, they are the spores. spores cannot grow in oil, but mushrooms can actually uptake oil and is used in oil spill cleanups. The spores offered up die immediately when they come into contact with oil but wind and billions of chances allow it to flourish on the non oily surfaces, until it "sprouts".

[Norby]

It will take many months to finally come to this conclusion if the OP tries to abate the PM instead of curing it, but he will eventually come to this conclusion, after many sad, sad months.

Why have people been able to "cure" it with sulfur burners and it never came back?  Sulfur doesn't kill pm and if it were systemic one sulfur burn would work for no one.

 

You can deduce things from gathering all the info out there.  I have seen no proof that the thought of it being systemic is more than just people who are less thorough than they think.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Norby

[trichcycler]

Why have people been able to "cure" it with sulfur burners and it never came back?  Sulfur doesn't kill pm and if it were systemic one sulfur burn would work for no one.

 

You can deduce things from gathering all the info out there.  I have seen no proof that the thought of it being systemic is more than just people who are less thorough than they think.

there's no question that eagle20 works, proven by golf courses and turf managers. Users often speak of all the times they use it successfully in their indoor/outdoor garden too.

I'm wondering if those who choose an organic approach to PM control might recognize the symptoms causes, increase air flow, and reduce humidity, ending the flora expressions, while users of instant "cures" may consistently rely on the bottle cure to squash the symptoms, ignoring causality.

It seems ridiculously simple to end the fungus on a clone, if taking in strangers is your thing, and dialed in controls could eliminate it.

 

I think you already know how it got there, why it stayed, and how to avoid it in the future. Sorry you had to receive a refresher lesson in the garden though, scary as heck I bet!

[t-pain]

kinda curious if all this is worth it to save a plant?

 

sulphur burner and all that effort... is this your best genetics or something that you've been cloning since 1978?

 

if its just some strain of some available seed, ... might as well drop it and go for another $20 seed pack? hey if you want to burn sulphur in your house, i'm not going to stop you.

 

ever smelled sulphur burning? yikes.

[Norby]

Will you all except it's not systemic if i can spray a plant with K bicarb that had it and put it in a terrarium at 70-80% humidity and it does not get it back?  Spores are a complain.  You can spray canola oil, or any oil, lightly around the floor and walls to catch dust and spores.  There are a million ways to make your room more controlled to alleviate these problems.  But think of it, there are spores and there is a mode of infection.  If your friend was getting sample meds from people or had hemp or hops growing near him, that could have been why they thought it was systemic, the mode was never found.  I have read just as many reports of people curing with one sulfur burn.  So there is something missing in these reports.

 

Again, do you have an answer why some people were able to get rid of it after just one sulfur burn if it is systemic?  Answer the hard questions.  Just because you believe something doesn't mean you can throw away all the other info out there.  It all has to mesh somehow.

 

There are different resistances in strains.  A strain could carry a low level infection thru. It's possible.  That is why I am TESTING(anyone ever test for systemic or is it just that everyone goes by voodoo?) to see if the clones I take still have it.  I have never seen a thread on ANYONE testing to see if they got rid of it by giving conditions to see if it's still there.  I have an aquarium and insect (pollen) barrier to make a quarantine tent with double carbon filter venting with oil sprayed on the prefilter to trap spores.  If it comes back I can take the whole terrarium to the garage and sterilize.  Every peer reviewed paper I have read says it is not systemic, it only throws it's hyphae(roots) into the cell wall to feed.  If you have other studies that say different with MJ PM I would like to see it. 

 

And yes, these are some great strains and I have been working over a year to pick out and a lot of money in seeds.  Not to mention I don't have enough meds stocked to take 5 patients thru over 3 months(making whoopee weight count bunny muffin, this is where I should've went into section 8 territory).  So maybe a little making whoopee encouragement instead of nothing but negativity from a bunch of voodoo artist would be appreciated.  And it's 8 solid strains, not a plant.

 

I knwo what I'm doing.  I don't know if it'll work 100% but from what I've gathered there is A LOT of voodoo out there without anything to back it up.  Looks like this needs someone to actually do the work instead of throwing the best theory at the wall and seeing if it sticks.  I can't believe no one before me actually considered testing a clone to see if it's systemic instead of just throwing out theory.  You wouldn't believe how many arguments there are out there over this.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Norby

[Norby]

Growgodess?  and the other one in that thread?  Have you guys/gals ever got it back?  How about me without even spraying and just starting over from seeds?  It can be gotten rid of for good(unless another vector of infection presents itself).

 

I may do the sulfur burn.  I'm a little iffy on the covers 1000 cu ft or 1000 sq feet.  I was thinking of loading the plants into the 8x8 tent and doing a burn in there?  Has anyone just done a tent instead of a room?

 

I may eagle 20 a few strains and just put the resistant ones thru flower for a while.  Still up in the air.  I know I can do this but it's intimidating since I have patients to worry about.  The conditions won't even be right for it again till march or later.  I think I have enough time to paint, spray oil and K bicarb and get rid of that darn tent.  The top acts like a hot air balloon and it can be 10-20% higher humidity and it creates lo flow air pockets.  The nice thing is that the tent most likely captured all the spores in the prefilter(hopefully).  I will keep you updated as to the systemic nature.  I have everything set up for testing.  Cleaned the glass aquariums last nite.  I take this seriously and I will find out the answers to these questions.

[Restorium2]

Some strains are very susceptible and some are resistant....

[Norby]

The thing I worry about with resistance is can it still carry a lo level infection without ever getting overcome, if it's not sprayed or sulfured.  Just enough to throw out a couple spores down the line and reinfect susceptible strains.  I'd personally like to use this to make strains that are immune(if resistant can still carry).

 

How can you defeat something if you don't KNOW about it?

 

But that's kinda opposite what I should be doing for my patients.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Norby

[t-pain]

sorry, i dont know anything bout PM. my squash plants get it sometimes and theres not a darn thing i can do about it.

[Purplehaze]

PM is a pain period. If you grow you will encounter it. Few years back I had to deal with it, and I am now dealing with it again.

 

I feel I made a mistake when the extreme cold came in last month, I let my flower room get colder then I should of and got little lazy on preventitive maintanence and the back plant near the incoming air flow got PM.

 

It spread to few more quickly before I saw it, I made the descision to treat the plants and see how it comes out. I think I should off killed the one it started on. Might do it still if it shows signs still this weekend.

 

I removed all leaves that had any showing of PM, I sprayed with a organic leaf spray and also a spray of diluted milk.

Added 2 fans, turned off fan forcing cold air in, temps are up near 80 and with better air flow, all looks good at the moment.

 

I do know many strains are resistant to PM, like my trainwreck cut.

 

Good luck

[Indigro]

How can you defeat something if you don't KNOW about it?

 

But that's kinda opposite what I should be doing for my patients.

Ding ding ding ^^^

 

Quit frackin around nordy, just for ur own edification. You admit u r not an expert & have only just begun reading about it a few days ago, yet u dismiss those that have actual experience in the matter... coming off a bit obstinate actually... to what end? To prove a point that u know whether or not true? For a science experiment? Meanwhile you have so very much riding on the matter? Sheesh. And bottom line is that u fracked up & dont know why/how, in reality, as u got an outbreak, no? Time to screw around w pride...?

 

From experience, nuke ur plants w a curative (just thr one time, in a moon suit), fix ur climate control issues, dont take in anything new afterwards lest u quarantine & nuke... and be done w the matter. Simple as one, two, three... or keep screwing around.

 

Wasn't going to even comment, but based on ur last post, it seems u might be ready for this reality check. Stop screwing around. ;-)

[garyfisher]

someone has went from asking for help to becoming an expert on PM based upon reading internetz only.  Fine, PM is not system and you will kill it with a simple KHCO3.  Green cure, the ultimate PM stopper! 

[Wild Bill]

I've heard of people who had good results from spraying the plants with diluted milk.

The only time I've ever had it was on cuttings so it was easy to dispose of the infected ones before it spread.

 

BTW, powdery mildew is not systemic, the fungicides used to control it are systemic.

[Highlander]

I've heard of people who had good results from spraying the plants with diluted milk.

The only time I've ever had it was on cuttings so it was easy to dispose of the infected ones before it spread.

 

BTW, powdery mildew is not systemic, the fungicides used to control it are systemic.

 

I engaged in a debate on this forum a while back, discussing the difference between a systemic problem and and systemic cure.

 

Let's say, for argument's sake, that PM is not systemic.  In other words, PM doesn't latch on to a part of the plant and then proliferate internally through the plant and pop-up elsewhere in the plant as a result.

 

Eagle 20 is a systemic fungicide.  So you spray your plant with Eagle 20, and the fungicides are then distributed throughout the plant, so the PM is attacked at any place on the plant where it wants to live.  This is/should be (more or less) accepted as a fact and is consistent with the stated goals of Eagle 20. 

 

This would be an example of a systemic fungicide attacking a non-systemic fungus.  Just because a systemic fungicide eliminates a fungus, doesn't mean that the fungus was systemic. 

 

My take is that PM is not systemic but that a systemic fungicide is best to combat it.  I know that others have offered anecdotal evidence that suggests that PM is systemic.  This may very well be the case.  Who knows?

 

Think of this in context with spider mites.  There is no doubt that spider mites are non-systemic.  You can spray mites with neem oil, etc. and hope to kill them where they live.  Alternatively, you can spray plants with a systemic miticide (Fluoramite, Avid, etc.).  The miticide is systemic, in that it is transferred through the entire plant and presents a hurdle to mites on any part of the plant regardless of the point of application. 

[Highlander]

I should add that this discussion is in no way advocating the use of chemicals designed for ornamental plants to be used for medical cannabis.  Just food for thought.

[trichcycler]

Norby,

I'm now wondering if a pm infected plant was to take up residence in my rooms.....what might happen?
I took the "set it and forget it" from the grow bible, and a few others did the same at the same time as I did, and we keep in touch. So far none of us have seen pm , yet, or mites even! that's a show stopper according to the mj masses it seems. Maybe one day dunno, but near five years, never touched the thermostat, ac, or dehumidifier, but also never took in stranger clones/visitors either. Almost curious enough to grab a moldy plant,, NOT!


I do know that most every strain growing in my garden has been excised from a cultured tissue in test tube. There are NO molds, no pathogens, and no virus' that are remaining in that dna, giving me an advantage over PM possibly ? Combined, these practices are giving me a positive experience so far, and know without a doubt that PM can be avoided in (in a handful of gardens in MI that I know of) an indoor medical garden is comforting. I would spend the cash twice even to avoid having to introduce a fungicide into my patients' medical marijuana grow room. I've never felt soooo lucky

[trichcycler]

good to know. I was hoping it came in on a fresh lawn cutting, or from a pet, which I suppose it could. but if its soooo very simple to avoid, I wish

a grower wouldn't gamble in this way with the application, medicine..., when seeds, cutting treatments, cultures, quarantine, controls etc are available?

 

I'm a genetic whore monger and salivate at the thought of adding new ones to my library, and I've never taken a clone in, so I know it can be done.

 

I bet my sterile packaged, dna washed cuttings in animated suspension would be a real hit if legal to distribute for this reason alone...

[trichcycler]

......yet, avoiding PM is stupid simple

 

The jig is up folks. One google of "I got powdery mildew from a clone" returns hundreds of thousands of related pages !  "That dammed guy at the store broke the law to give me clones, I cant believe he'd sell infected clones illegally, now I have to use ornamental turf sprays to control the issue, whats the world coming to!

 

Is it true that aphids are a prime spreader of the fungal infection with their leaf piercing habits of eating? I understand how a few strangers in a room could be infected, but if the room is heated/cooled/dehumidified correctly and not over fertilized , how does this spread to areas that do not support mold growth, like the whole room full ?

poor norby got hit, I suspect from a stranger clone ?   will you take in another ?

 

  persistent issues=persistent habits. imo

Edited January 16, 2015 by grassmatch

[garyfisher]

I should add that this discussion is in no way advocating the use of chemicals designed for ornamental plants to be used for medical cannabis.  Just food for thought.

Myclobutinol is approved for food crops and in fact it's residue is found in much of the produce on grocery store shelves including packaged beer (from barely treatment). 

 

Here is a link to the top 50 crops regularly treated with myclobutinol. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_ChemUse.jsp?Rec_Id=PC120#TopSites

[trichcycler]

consumers would benefit knowing what happens to these chemicals when they are heated then inhaled, and concentrated from larger amounts of cannabis for us in tinctures and cannabis oil remedies.  I know many chemicals become something different when they are burned.

Another consideration is food crops are rained on and often irrigated with sprayers. Clear instructions are given to wash all vegetables thoroughly before consuming, notions not likely popular with growers and patients.

 

garyfisher,

 

that site is awesome information, thanks much for the share!

 

( bought a new phone cord(dinosaur, yep, still have a landline) recently and the note inside said it causes cancer. Luckily for e, it only applies if lived in Cali !!  )

[Norby]

How much Myclobutinol could still be in a plant that was sprayed as a rooted cutting(1gram), put into flower 45 days later and harvested at 1/4lb. dry 8-10 weeks later?  As much as they gave the mice every day for 2 years with no cancerous affects, only liver problems( may be a bit wrong as I'm not a toxicologist and it was a quick read)?

 

I have found out there may be different types of powdery mildew that affect cannabis(possibly the peer reviewed paper was wrong) and there may be different levels of ability to get rid of it.  Ok I was a bit arrogant, i guess I don't know EVERYTHING   Maybe the type I encountered before hadn't been passed thru the grow circuit and became tougher to eradicate. Who knows, but I'd be ok with not knowing.

 

And considering it IS used on food crops I will take it to my patients.  I really thought it was only used for turf applications so I thought something I didn't want anything to do with. I'm very against the widespread use of everything from antibiotics to chemical pesticides etc.etc.etc. but I guess this is a bit different.  Best not to play around(of course), it was the scientist in me that wanted to take a different approach and learn about it. Maybe if I get a lab to play with some day after I hit the lottery.

[Hayduke]

what is it?

 

eagle20?

[Norby]

yes.