Group Lawyer Fees

[Restorium2]

That too, of course.

I knew you were going to say that. lol

[bobandtorey]

There is the notion that it pushes the limits of the law. We need to push back hard against our adversaries. It is not only police overreach, but also judicial fukn up that we hafta throw down for. There should be blood on the ice. Some has been and will be ours, but this fight ain't over.

I agree but the only way to push back is in a Court room

[bobandtorey]

Unfortunately, if the doctor or condition must be examined in court and has a bearing on it, the patients have lost their privacy. That is why the cards exist, in my opinion. It means even the very sick or disabled can lose if their doctor doesn't want to show up in court.

 It's not the choices you want it's the choices you have 

[bobandtorey]

Unfortunately, if the doctor or condition must be examined in court and has a bearing on it, the patients have lost their privacy. That is why the cards exist, in my opinion. It means even the very sick or disabled can lose if their doctor doesn't want to show up in court.

I'am thinking 

[trichcycler]

why not designate one "offender" to capture the police interest, after fattening up a gofundme for that person. when the amount reaches the legal fees needed, commit the legal act that police don think is legal. this way the offense can be well planned, agreed on, and wholly supported?

 

stupid idea, yeah I know. good luck getting a few thousand people to agree on anything. maybe even a few people even

[GregS]

I agree but the only way to push back is in a Court room

Isn't that exactly what we're talking about? (holds head in hands)

[GregS]

I do think it is impractical for any membership-based organization to attempt to provide any legal services without the defendant hiring a lawyer for the whole case. Certain elements of the defense such as an assertion of section 4 immunity could be subsidized by the group, but the defendant would have to shoulder the real burden of a complete defense, regardless.

It would have to cover sec. 8 defense too. There would be requirements to meet to ensure it is not taken undue advantage of. After the defense has been vetted by the court and it is determined whether sec. 7 requirements have not been broken and sec. 8 elements are apparent the client would be on their own, win or lose. The defendant has the option to stay with any counsel they choose, to include those who would bring the AD.

Edited February 24, 2015 by GregS

[mmurphy169]

Unfortunately, if the doctor or condition must be examined in court and has a bearing on it, the patients have lost their privacy. That is why the cards exist, in my opinion. It means even the very sick or disabled can lose if their doctor doesn't want to show up in court.

Every victim that has to testify in court has their privacy violated. Their attorney can petition the court to make their testimony via a closed circuit tv and have the public removed from the court room. Also, it should be remembered that every person that petitions the State of Michigan to have a medical marijuana card is allowing an undefined number of state employees the ability to access their doctor's recomendation and gain private medical information. And Federal Agencies, such as the ATF and DEA request access to those records as well.

 

And if the patient's doctor does not want to voluntarily appear in court the Defense attorney should request that the court issue a subpeona.

 

However, I do not see a purpose to this type of fund. If a patient or cargiver has questions about the law, they should attend one of the seminars the Cannabis Attorneys of Michigan out of Howell hold every month for $25 or get a group together and pay a practicing attorney their rate to answer questions. I know the Cannabis Counsel out of Detroit will be able to educate with a reasonable fee, along with Matt Newburg out of Grand Ledge...I do not know of any attorneys in northern Michigan but there must be someone...Take all the notes you can and if you find yourself prosecuted, request a court appointed attorney. They are not incompetent, just a bit over worked; so if you have an understanding of the MMMA and how you were in compliance, or believed you were in compliance, than the court appointed wiil be farily effective.

[trichcycler]

I got my info for free at the mi.gov website

[mmurphy169]

I got my info for free at the mi.gov website

Well of course, all of the law is available for free to the public...every court decision, every statute,every academic opinion...The UCC is free to any company that looks it up, every federal criminal statute is availalbe to the public. The U.S. Constitution is one of the most reprinted documents in history...So I beg the question, why ask for legal counsel at all?

Edited February 26, 2015 by mmurphy169

[trichcycler]

12 plants, 2.5 ounces, no more than five patients, mouth shut...whats to ask right?

[mmurphy169]

12 plants, 2.5 ounces, no more than five patients, mouth shut...whats to ask right?

yep that is what some language of the statute says...just like every statute in existence can be read and repeated by anyone who can read. So you are saying that anyone that can read has no reason to seek legal counsel.

[Wild Bill]

12 plants, 2.5 ounces, no more than five patients, mouth shut...whats to ask right?

Explain the Carruthers decision and its implications.

[YesMichigan]

Explain the Carruthers decision and its implications.

 

Not to step in for GM but I think Carruthers does not support the implications being ascribed to it.

 

Weight of the item. So 1 ounce is 3 ounces if in a mixture. Doesn't that alone give credibility that the entire mix is a mixture or preparation thereof?

 

So what is the "mixture thereof" well the COA got hung up on "resin" not being part of the MMMA and that it was specifically excluded by the Proposal's authors. Whatever that means. Co2 extraction oil is a "preparation of leaves and or flowers" in every definition and sense of the words.

 

Is there an oil case moving through the courts that could challenge the current misapplication of issues in Carruthers and the rest of the state? As long as no one ever says "resin" the legislation specifically authorizes preparations and mixtures.

 

Is a lawyer going to tell a person what any of Carruthers means in a way that will matter if LEO and a battering shows up to talk about a grow room?

 

Read, listen, get advice. At the end of the day - be aware very powerful forces are aligned against you hoping for your demise and no amount of understanding will fix that. That's what I get from GM's comments on this because I know he respects the law and knowledge of it as much as anyone.

[pic book]

 

 

Is a lawyer going to tell a person what any of Carruthers means in a way that will matter if LEO and a battering shows up to talk about a grow room?

Membership has advantages.  Like seminars (or at least the trucking group put them on).  What to do if leo stops you, or if leo shows up...(shut up...shut up...shut up)   lf leo batters--they have a warrant--you batten up your lips and if they don't have a warrant, you still batten up.  You have prepared by being a member.  You are prepared, as prepared as you can ever be.  Let your pre-paid mouthpiece speak for you, you just shut up.  And you have pre-arranged bail.  That's peace of mind.

And when you want to know what Carruthers means for you, you dial up your legal service and ask them, or send them an email.

[pic book]

The ? is not, is pre-paid legal good for Joe Schmo to have?   The ? is, when will it become available to Joe Schmo? 

 

For a prospective provider of pre-paid legal for mmmp participants, it is a biz ?  What do they have to charge?  What coverage do they have to provide?  Etc.  All the ? any one starting a new biz faces.

[YesMichigan]

Being represented and knowing the person who will do it ahead of time is not a bad idea. I'm not fighting for GM's point of shunning lawyers 'cause "I can read good too."

 

I am saying people who just want to talk about the law to become more comfortable engaging in the MMMA will likely not feel better than when they went in. I've heard Mr. Komorn mention on PGT a few times, feeling bad for being the bearer of such "realistic" news given COA and Trial court rulings.

[trichcycler]

pic book prepaid lawyer services have existed since I was in school. not sure of their success.\\\

 

 

 

 

 

yep that is what some language of the statute says...just like every statute in existence can be read and repeated by anyone who can read. So you are saying that anyone that can read has no reason to seek legal counsel.

no, of course not. I wont poo poo the legal advantages to having an attorney on speed dial.

what I'm saying is a lot of people think 12 plants means 20 clones, and 12 plants.

some think they can sell to 100 people on the corner, some know better.

some even think they can get a lwayer to "back them" while they set up shop.

 

some of us just maintain a legal number of patients, don't toke and drive, grow below the limits, never have buddies over for a viewing, constantly weigh in to stay legal. We don't sell to dispensaries, or to friends not named on our cards. We don't blow smoke in leo's eyes..

In my experience, with the successful cg/patient registries I know of, these folks did not need an attorney to begin, have not needed one to continue and I suspect will not need one in the future. The majority of registrants don't have attorneys on call.

 

if needing to be involved in gray areas.....now theres a reason to consult an attorney. I like lawyers, and have even supplied a down payment on a vacation property for one. He provided me with exactly the defense that was necessary to show the ridiculousness of the charge. I feel forever indebted to him and his firm for their work.

 

 

what would be some questions you would ask of an attorney on the phone

Edited February 26, 2015 by grassmatch

[trichcycler]

Explain the Carruthers decision and its implications.

I could only explain to you what the decision means for me, how it came to be, and how to avoid this type of hassle. And those explanations are nothing but conjecture.

[Murph]

Pre Paid Legal (now called Legal Shield) does cover some legal issues/costs, but excludes criminal charges in most of the plans benefits but fills in other areas. I have it, glad to sign you up, $25 month, but

if you think it covers everything you would be mistaken....and you need to maintain it monthly so $25 x 12 months, every year but the benefits can add up

 

Bottom line - better than nothing (and even having a law firm to call in a pinch is worth the fee...

 

M

Edited February 26, 2015 by Murph

[Murph]

Thought I would check back in on this thread as it is IMPORTANT -

in reading over a few of the comments, analyzing legal decisions, even the MMMAct, takes skill and legal training (as with anything to do with law), it is not simple, sorry to say -- but someone summed it up nicely as to MMAct above:

"12 plants, 2.5 ounces, no more than five patients, mouth shut...whats to ask right?"

 

I would add a few, if holding ANYTHING transporting wise, Get and put it in a separate container (those pelican ones in Walmart work well) and have it in your trunk, back of truck, if minivan or SUV as far back you can get it in the opposite corner from driver, the idea I guess is to make it unreachable...stupid law.... but it is law thanks to our Legislature/Gov., and just so you do not get a ticket it's worth spending the $10 for a container ahead of time. I do not think it says locked container (in the text of the law, best check for yourself) ... so just a separate case. I Have one in the back of vehicle just in case I ever have anything so it is there - even if your legal and get let go, you could get a ticket for violating this so spend the money, get a case, and put it in the back of your vehicle so it is there IF you need it.

 

Obviously, one should never, ever, ever, consent to any search. period. Never should reek either as that is the #1 reason - carry some spray colone, better than nothing. Visine too.

 

Lastly on the topic here, the best thing someone could do is to get to know your local MMLaw Lawyer BEFORE anything happens.  Most people are not going to put a retainer down, so just knowing someone, them knowing you is good -

Most Legal pros are busy, so you have to do some work in your location and find out - worse comes most will meet for free for 120-30 minutes about a case, so you could do that. Knowing the law and compliance is your number one thing, so make sure you get advise from someone legally connected, not uncle joe who read two sentences (out of context) and thinks He knows the law....and did I mention NEVER ever consent to a search (they ask why, you say you do not waive Constitutional Rights people died to give you....usually shuts them up (plus its true)....many people died defending what We have, so do not be flippant. Being pulled over is serious stuff.

 

Now, as to a legal insurance. Not in Michigan, but the best thing you can get is "LegalShield" is a great program. I can sell it --- IN fairness their are several out there but none as good as Legal Shield. for the money it is well worth it (*but get to know your local MM Atty too)....never can have too many choices....anytime your in court you need representation or at least someone who has training/exp.

 

Better yet then buying stand-alone legal shield, is to get your HR Dept. at offer it at work as a work benefit (as they can get it cheaper for 10, 40, 75 people than alone). I can do that too - PM me. I have had it for years and it does save money for legal stuff - most people just forgo legal stuff thinking they do not need it, you do need it.

And if the precise thing you need is not covered explicitly, like criminal cases, it is covered under the discount section and it works IT WORKS PEOPLE -- just having a lawyer to call, ect..is a good thing. Even traffic tickets are 500-1000 if you do not have this so the old adage pay now or pay more later somewhat applies.

 

LASTLY most of US do not have the legal things We need to begin with -a Will/ and basic child care paperwork, a Trust  if you own real property. If you have kids Dad and Mom, should have papers for treatment/care in case the caretaker needs to act medically without a parent -- all this needs legal documents (and the ones on the internet will cause more problems than they solve), A Will should spell out things in case you pass (happens every day) and who gets what you have as going to probate court is pointless if you do not have much -- all and all, the US population, less than $100k income, is the LEAST served by the legal community as these basics should be in everyone's "legal papers" file with deeds, titles, ect., with copies off site (Parents/Brother/Sisters House? and vice versa), AND in a fire/waterproof box.

 

Hope it helps...peace!

 

M