Testing Thc Levels Through Metro Detroit Labs. Not Consistent.

[Seefdro]

 

How then were the samples selected to send to the dispensary?

 

I don't know. Presuming that was at the discretion of dispensaries in question.

 

Were samples selected randomly?

 

Again, don't know. That mostly likely is at dispensary discretion.-- CG in question only took overages in. At that point dispensaries picked which medicinal sample to test.

 

Did the same individual select the samples?

 

NO... Each dispensary (individual) sent their own sample from same harvested batch with similar conditions in CG's grow room. All plants in question were from same cloned mother.

 

Was sample selection from exact same bud?

 

No... Not sure what you mean "exact same bud". This harvest was from same batch of clones with exact same mother (similar genetic background). Conditions similar throughout grow room. Main variable being size of each plant in harvest. Meaning flowers were most likely from all points of the the plants (low, middle, top)... Im also presuming that most of the flowers were not of low branch "popcorn" quality.

 

Were samples selected from different plants?

 

No... Same perpetual time-out cloned batch from same mother. Same harvest of multiple cloned out plants in similar grow conditions in grow room. When it was time for harvest all plants went down.

 

Was there any variation from each sample compared to distance from bulb?

 

Don't know?... I would presume so.

 

Did all dispensaries send out sample on same day?

 

I'm sure that was not the case. That said, they were most likely all tested within a close period of time. Again, not my overages... This CG moves in a timely manner. The testing was not requested on behalf of CG in question via lab. All samples in question were taken from dispensaries request to lab technician.

[garyfisher]

I really appreciate the time you took to respond.  I didn't think I would get half the questions answered.  You cleared up many assumptions made early on in the thread.  Thank you.

[Seefdro]

Sure... This question is bigger than the circumstance in question. Really glad to see the MMMA collective using their medicinal wits to contribute as to why.

 

Thanks again.

[trichcycler]

Maybe the entrants actually do pay the labs to fudge results, maybe High Times knows nothing about it the scam? who knows?

 

With molds, pesticides, and varying thc levels, the advent of free for all corner sales of marijuana in many town shops, the occurrence of imported marijuana being sold to patients, the thousand genetic choices we have...., some of us do appreciate a lab result, especially when its consistent, and finds unknown variables which would have been otherwise missed. These labs are the best we have right now. Pesticides cannot always be tasted or sensed, same with molds. With hundreds of terpenes known to be found in cannabis outside of human smell/taste threshold , to quantify even a few of them, past limonene for example with a sniff or puff, as accurately as quality lab testing, is unheard of outside the canine world.

The results are not going into the annals of medical history, and they are not being used to send people into space. I find them above anecdotal when comparing one lab result to another. For instance my highest thc cultivars tested within acceptable variance compared to the breeder claims. This could certainly be influenced by a different room, or different habits, but when a room is managed with similar parameters as the breeder, the results, for me, have been consistent with lab results produced by the breeders.
 

 

-----Checking for mold and pesticides does not inspire regulation. Using pesticides and growing mold however may.

[Highlander]

It would be helpful to know what pesticides and fungicides the lab tests for. There are so many products on the market that people might use on cannabis - not just eagle 20, abermectin, etc. but also products normally used to combat termites and more. I've worked with environmental labs for years. A common test is a pesticide scan that costs about $150. I'd estimate that any lab work that includes a wide range of pesticides and fungicides as well as cannabinoids would approach a cost of $500 per sample. If growers who use lots of chemicals know that the lab will test for x,y,z, a clever grower will simply shift to other products.

 

An inexpensive chemical analysis will have serious limitations. An expensive and comprehensive scan will cost far too much to make it worthwhile for any grower keeping within plant and weight limits under our current program.

 

It seems that the better solution is documentation of grow techniques, similar to the hoops an organic farm jumps through to show proper grow techniques rather than test all of the resulting product

 

Know thy grower.

[Hayduke]

most labs only really wish to do thc and cbd testing...

 

and those are the sexy tests anyway ...

 

to test for mold, most only do it visually, which is fine for obvious cases, but the longer more accurate test involves making cultures in a petri dish...

 

the rarest test would be for pesticides, because they need to run a separate screening test for each pesticide, and that gets quite expensive.

[garyfisher]

 

the rarest test would be for pesticides, because they need to run a separate screening test for each pesticide, and that gets quite expensive.

False.  A Gas chromatagraph  will identify every single compound within the mixture.  

[+Malamute]

?

[+Malamute]

A GC CAN identify compounds.  You would need to explain to people how that happens, what you need to identify those things and how to focus tests to identify such.  It doesn't just automatically tell you everything.

[garyfisher]

I'm not here to give people an advanced lecture in chemistry that is well above the scope of their knowledge.  One cannot begin to understand advanced concepts until the elementary fundamentals of chemical separations/ chromatrography are understood.  There are various scientific forums covering these topics.  However, I will loudly point out when people are spreading misinformation.  They may not be doing this on purpose but fail to understand the concept.

 

I use shimandzu GCs with MS  or FID; Agilent HPLC's at my work.  We use these instruments to identify much more complex issues than compositions of a mixture.

 

If someone wants to learn, I will point them in the direction.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry

 

If anyone has any questions about these systems, please feel free to post here or PM me.

[garyfisher]

One thing to note and I'm interested in seeing the data is the ratios of cannabinoids in these samples aka fingerprints.  DId the ratios of cannabinoids remain the same even though the concentration detected changed?

[Highlander]

One thing to note and I'm interested in seeing the data is the ratios of cannabinoids in these samples aka fingerprints.  DId the ratios of cannabinoids remain the same even though the concentration detected changed?

I can appreciate your quest for data but I have to laugh a bit when we discuss current MJ testing in Michigan. I've never used MMJ lab services, but I have seen a few reports, and they are generally a one-page sheet, more like a certificate or award. A "real" lab report would include QA/QC data, justification for method detection limits (among many other things) , and a comprehensive list of analysis and methods, as opposed to a check box report that says something simple like "no mold noted."

 

Contrast this with an approved drinking water lab. Any report they issue must include a lot of QA/QC data, descriptions of methods, and refer to an EPA-approved Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) document.

 

At this point in Michigan, cannabis testing labs are not subjected to any standard and can operate under their own standards and report results in any manner they see fit.

 

Show me a lab that can subject it's work to level IV third-party data validation, and then we will have something.

[garyfisher]

I whole heartily agree, highlander.  I also have never used a MMJ testing facility but have seen the reports from Iron labs.   Anyone paying for a test should receive a chromatograph with peaks labelled, area under the curve integrated as well as method.  I'm not sure how CO is doing it but I bet it is closer to industry standards. 

[trichcycler]

CannLabs uses Ultra-High Performance Liquid Chromatography with Tandem Mass Spectrometry technology (UPLC/MS/MS) as well as Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry equipment to analyze cannabis products for the presence of pesticides.

PureAnalytics samples are analyzed for all chlorinated, fluorinated and brominated pesticides including synthetic pyrethroids, fungicides like myclobutanil and PGR's like paclobutrazol. Quantitative results available for the following list:

 

Myclobutanil, Cypermethrin, Bifenthrin, gamma-Cyhalothrin, Permethrin, beta-Cyflurthrin and Fipronil--chromatographic analysis with electron capture

 

steephill say "Due to cannabis’ federal legal status, no pesticide residual tolerance limits have been established by the EPA; however, some medical cannabis states and some legal markets have outlawed the use of pesticides with cannabis.

◾Pesticides screened for include (but are not limited to): abamectin, bifenazate, bifenthrin, carbaryl, cypermethrin, diazinon, myclobutanil, paclobutrazol, permethrin, resmethrin ---chemical-free near infrared spectrophotometry (NIRS) analysis

◾High pressure liquid chromatography mass spectrometry (HPLC-MS) & gas chromatography mass spectrometry (GC-MS) calibrations

for the techy's.

 

 

does anyone know if there are still laws dictating marijuana mold/pesticide testing for dispensaries? and what standards they are held to as testing labs?

Edited February 22, 2015 by grassmatch

[imiubu]

imho, testing for contaminants ie mold/pesticides should be the standard, if forced testing shall be put upon us.

[+Malamute]

Safety items(mold,fungi,pesticide residues) should be required on commercial products. I recommend(ed) USP standards.

 

Anything else is fluff and is merely a marketing tool, not a requirement.

[+Malamute]

Cost is the issue here. Espescially under the prov center model with excess from pt/cg.

 

If the total of tests is $300(just as example) What dispensary will buy from patients at 2 oz? 

 

Now,... $300 on one lb is okie dokie, and as in Colorado, every 10 lb must be tested.

 

The current Michigan model being attempted makes extensive testing ridiculously oppressive.

 

 Pesticide testing can be really expensive unless just doing the basic screen.

 

 They have developed some for those used by mj grpowers more commonly,... but all pesticides?  Can only afford that at warehouse levels.

[imiubu]

imho, testing for contaminants ie mold/pesticides should be the standard, if forced testing shall be put upon us.

 

 

Safety items(mold,fungi,pesticide residues) should be required on commercial products. I recommend(ed) USP standards.

 

Anything else is fluff and is merely a marketing tool, not a requirement.

agreed.

[Norby]

most labs only really wish to do thc and cbd testing...

 

and those are the sexy tests anyway ...

 

to test for mold, most only do it visually, which is fine for obvious cases, but the longer more accurate test involves making cultures in a petri dish...

 

the rarest test would be for pesticides, because they need to run a separate screening test for each pesticide, and that gets quite expensive.

Making cultures for mold presence?  Any flower is going to have spores.  Are you talking about culturing to see how long it takes to culture and discerning how large the presence of spores is from that? 

[trichcycler]

....and, the species may be of some importance.

thank you Norby for reminding us that ALL samples will produce fruiting spores. why not ? who grows in sterile conditions right ?