Caregiver And Guns

[Restorium2]

It's always; choose your own level of risk 

[Restorium2]

There are a lot of negative "could happen" scenarios for not having a gun also.

And a lot more possible if all the crooks know we can't/don't have guns. 

 

We need to stop painting ourselves into corners we can't come out of. The crooks need to understand that grows might have guns protecting them. That's always been the case.

[trichcycler]

anyone know of someone shooting a thug who was robbing their marijuana garden ?

[Restorium2]

The whole guns right issue isn't necessarily about having a gun. It's about the right to have a gun. Once that right is gone then you are laid naked to a crook who knows he's the only one packing. It's about deterrents. Like cameras. If everyone knows that the others might have guns then it will stop a lot of wild ideas. People used to get wild ideas about us because we were illegal and they thought the cops wouldn't help us. We are just starting to overcome that. 

[mibrains]

well fair enough....

but.

all i will say is this then..

in my experience in the county i live in you are in much more danger if you Grow with a gun at your facility rather than if you are just a patient.

i cannot say for all counties and every person in Michigan.

[mibrains]

The whole guns right issue isn't necessarily about having a gun. It's about the right to have a gun. Once that right is gone then you are laid naked to a crook who knows he's the only one packing. It's about deterrents. Like cameras. If everyone knows that the others might have guns then it will stop a lot of wild ideas. People used to get wild ideas about us because we were illegal and they thought the cops wouldn't help us. We are just starting to overcome that. 

thats true rest

and i was watching you tube videos a couple days ago that were discussion how the second amendment actually does not guarantee an individual the right to bear arms as most people think.

its only two words that give people that impression.

the significant majority of the second amendment is about forming a militia and being able to arm said militia without government sanctions or controls.

the right to arm that militia is where people painstakingly think they have a right to own a gun.

 

the second amendment only guarantees you have the right to form a militia (armed or not) and protect yourself from all aggressors foreign and domestic. 

 

Gun control and Cannabis are not a new argument.

 

i apologize for coming off to strongly this morning on my opinions.

 

its true. at this point and time in history - you have every right to arm yourself as you see fit.

 

i want my Guns back.

 

i am a combat veteran i personally put my life on the line to protect my and your freedom and we should all have every right to bear arms.

[trichcycler]

interesting article on the subject

 

Local Attitudes Complicate things further…

 

The issue with gun ownership is complex. It is clear you have the legal right to posses firearms if you are not a felon. It is clear you have a right to possess marijuana in Michigan with strict compliance with the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act. The problem is that the “Authorities” dislike both rights and in some cases will attempt to challenge these rights in Court.

 

The problem of guns and marijuana is compounded because of the attitude of different police officers vary. The problem varies from the different attitude of individual county prosecutor offices from county to county and even within an office. There are different attitudes among judges at the trial court and appellate court level also.

 

For example the Michigan Court of Appeals has been assigning judges to hear MMMA cases that are adverse and tend to narrow or negatively impact the rights granted under the MMMA while the Michigan Supreme Court has consistently protected the rights. This complex arena that can vary from town to town and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I have been asked to offer guidance on the use of firearms in conjunction with Medical Marijuana. Therefore, here is my advise: Don’t exercise both rights simultaneously. Let me explain why Guns and Marijuana don’t mix well.

 

Your Gun Rights are Dependent on Winning your Marijuana Case

 

Under Michigan Medical Marihuana Act the right is an affirmative defense that requires that you have to prove your legal status otherwise the action is illegal. This means that if you can not produce your doctor to establish the bonafide dr/pt relationship in court , which is required by some judges, or otherwise fail to establish the defense then you are in effect subject to the criminal sanctions.

 

On the other hand, the penalty for possession of a firearm in conjunction with illegal drugs significantly raises the penalty. In the event the disqualification of the affirmative defense under section 4 or section 8 results in a felony conviction, the possession of a firearm (even in a gun safe on another floor) can result in an additional charge that requires 2 years in prison.

 

Adding a Gun to the Mix Could Mean You Fight the Good Fight or Take a Plea

 

The effect is that many people choose to have the mandatory penalty for the firearm dismissed in exchange for a conviction of a less serious drug offense…this settlement occurs because the risk of losing at trial is too great. Without the firearm charge, the same case could be brought to a judge or jury without risk of going to state prison. While it is easy for some advocates to say from the comfort of their home that they are willing to risk it all to assert their rights, many sick patients who have other responsibilities can not afford to be a martyr for the cause.

 

Federal Enforcement of Gun Laws

Guns and Marijuana

Firearm Control is a Federal Priority

 

The federal government has recently stated that they will only enforce federal law against citizens when one of 8 concerns are present. Listed among those concerns is firearms. So when asked can a person possess a firearm or have a concealed weapon permit and a MMMA card, I always say you have the right to cross the street in front of a bus if you stay in the crosswalk, but you may end up splattered all over the road.

 

You have been forewarned, but compliance with all MMMA laws and compliance with all laws relating to the possession of a firearm could result in legal possession and a successful defense, there is no legitimate reason why anyone would exercise both rights at the same time. Guns and Marijuana don’t mix well.

 

I get calls from people who want to argue with my analysis and that is okay. There are a large number of individuals who have not been victimized by the unreasonable enforcement and most government officials are reasonable; however it is the other cases of arbitrary enforcement and unreasonable acts that result in you hiring me.

 

Are you a Juicy Target?

 

My final comment is that if you are a patient and do not grow or ever possess more than about a half ounce of medicine and a single rifle locked in a gun cabinet then you are at less risk than if you have a nice gun collection and act as a caregiver for 5 other patients. Please be advised that if you are raided by law enforcement they will certainly file forfeiture papers to become the owner of your gun collection as well.

 

In the event you disregard this advice or did not have this advice and find yourself facing a firearms charge in conjunction with your medicine, then you’ll be pleased that recent case law has distinguished between actual and constructive possession. These cases following the Second Amendment and have provided an argument for dismissal at the preliminary exam phase of a criminal prosecution. However these cases are not binding published decisions in other words your court can disregard them

 

attorney Dan Hartman

[mibrains]

good article grass.

 

i know Dan Hartman somewhat personally and i respect his opinion on this matter.

[Norby]

well fair enough....

but.

all i will say is this then..

in my experience in the county i live in you are in much more danger if you Grow with a gun at your facility rather than if you are just a patient.

i cannot say for all counties and every person in Michigan.

Not necessarily.  If both situations were to present themselves, one results in either a long battle with the courts and nothing or probation.  The other may entail your assault or death.  I'd rather be alive and go to court.

 

Oops, misread that.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Norby

[mibrains]

well statistically speaking there is an argument that says you are more likely to get hurt, or to hurt someone you know and care about accidentally with your own gun more often than you are going to be able to protect yourself?

 

not sure i agree with that statistic.

 

it's been said guns breed violence.

 

back in the day if you didn't have a gun and all they want is your money or your items then you would have left the confrontation broke - but alive...same scenario if you raise a gun...everyone shoots....some end up dead.

 

that being said i feel like in today's moral condition that statistic is less relevant and not as true as it was when i was growing up working at a 711 and being under constant threat of robbery.

 

today your more likely to just be shot during a home invasion or robbery than you used to be.

 

it seems like the value of life has declined significantly in those who are capable of taking one so effortlessly.

 

i have Batts, Knives, Mace and other strategic items located all throughout my facility so in the event of a hostile takeover attempt i have the best strategic advantage over my enemies.  i would bet i will be successful defending my "castle" from any unlawful aggressor without any guns being on site.

[trix]

a fine understanding !

 

 

we see state courts give back guns to mj users, but have feds done such a thing ? I heard the feds wont recognize "medical status", and would not be able to tell and would not care if "addiction" was at play, as marijuana use constitutes their position in the letter. A prescription is recognized by the feds and gives legal right to posess the drug prescribed, a luxury marijuana users don't enjoy, with the feds.

 

Did atf did make those laws up because of medical marijuana, or are they laws that have been on the books and explained in the letter?

 

and Trix, what happened there ?

In my case, I truly feel even though in my mind I was "legal" I don't think without the help of my lawyer Micheal Komorn, I be in prison.

 

What I learned is don't keep your guns with your grow. Its not a felony to be in possession of marijuana and have a gun, but it is when your committing a crime (growing marijuana).

 

Not sure about the feds, I must be doing something off the wall to have them looking at me for some reason.

 

I had my CCW during my case and it wasn't a issue either. Plants and all were returned.

 

 

[trichcycler]

I wish police identified themselves before one jumps out of the bed aiming a firearm at them in the hallway, asking for more holes. cops shoot first when they see a weapon. Likely those bullets would be aimed in the direction of the room we were sleeping in. I don't know of anyone aiming a gun at a cop in a raid and surviving.

[Norby]

Me too.  In my case the cops would probably make it in before I could get the gun out of the safe and I think they'd make enough noise that I'd be aware it wasn't a burglary but a raid.  Tough decisions the situation your gov't puts you in.

 

If they were still only doing 50 no knock raids a year or not using it for MJ crimes, I don't think it would be an issue but hey, they have to protect themselves from those violent MJ users. Not.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Norby

[trichcycler]

thanks trix, clarity is priceless. I took Komorns advice so serious....I built a steel outbuilding that will contain any growing plants/clones/cuttings I may be keeping for patients. Not sure why this is so difficult for some to comprehend. I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but it is what it is. I'd hate to be forced into a plea bargain because of a shotgun or pistol, or worse yet to have to pay thousands for the same result, when otherwise I would have been completely legal without a gun andwould have fought to the win. I'm happy Komorn was able to serve you well with great advice and I would not hesitate to call on him again.

 

peace

[Norby]

well statistically speaking there is an argument that says you are more likely to get hurt, or to hurt someone you know and care about accidentally with your own gun more often than you are going to be able to protect yourself?

 

not sure i agree with that statistic.

 

it's been said guns breed violence.

 

back in the day if you didn't have a gun and all they want is your money or your items then you would have left the confrontation broke - but alive...same scenario if you raise a gun...everyone shoots....some end up dead.

 

that being said i feel like in today's moral condition that statistic is less relevant and not as true as it was when i was growing up working at a 711 and being under constant threat of robbery.

 

today your more likely to just be shot during a home invasion or robbery than you used to be.

 

it seems like the value of life has declined significantly in those who are capable of taking one so effortlessly.

 

i have Batts, Knives, Mace and other strategic items located all throughout my facility so in the event of a hostile takeover attempt i have the best strategic advantage over my enemies.  i would bet i will be successful defending my "castle" from any unlawful aggressor without any guns being on site.

Unless they have a gun.  Especially in close quarters.

As a white male I'm 2x as likely to turn the gun on myself purposefully(suicide).  A black man is more likely to be shot by someone else, which is probably why CCW's are rising in the black community at the fastest rate, and Latino are in similar stats from what I've read.

  I've had shooting classes and plan on taking the CCW class just to get the training so I  think I'd personally rise above the stats.And I don't plan on turning the gun on myself so there goes 66% of teh chance of me shooting myself. You really have to look at the stats and situations to make sense of them.  Liberals like to throw those stats around without even understanding them.  I think suicides are counted in with the stats of shooting yourself which aren't really accidental.

[mibrains]

even without a gun... Norby in my Castle... i win because of an awesome home court advantage.

 

at my facility i have had to set up areas for defense and staging.  i have spent several years protecting myself here and now without guns i have made many stronghold areas to be able to withstand a siege from an unlawful attacker and hopefully prevail.

 

it would be wrong of me to openly discuss my castles strategic defense system but i will say its not likely that an opposing force would make it very far into the heart of my castle.

 

remember... one does not necessarily need a firearm to propel a projectile .

[trichcycler]

at 6 and Vandyke life was all about survival of the homeowner. when I grew up I ran as fast as I could north, towards the land of no locked neighbor doors, full auto gun fire on the 4th, daily neighborhood gunfire practice, and even a dynamite handler nearby !  I still lock + lock  my entrances, alarm, audio/video surv of the whole place, and only recently began leaving my garage door unlocked while not home.  I even keep an aluminum ladder in my yard without fear of scrapper thieves.  police don't come down the 300 foot driveway, but they have called me on my phone from the road. they don't care about growers out here, evident from the multiple visible badazz gardens appearing all over the place. some are extravagant greenhouses, some garage attachments, some just plain plots. One guy moves his trees in and out of the garage as weather permits daily. The plants are displayed in his driveway until evening.   They do care if you sell it to the dispensary, or to another outside of your max five, drive with a sack in your ashtray, or to someone not permitted to use. Not sure why patients are still toting their herb in their pocket driving. numbskulls imo.

 

I've fallen asleep with the doors wide open here, on the veranda, under the stars too. I once left the doors and windows open for the whole weekend accidentally while we were away. the breezy ions were great on my return. finally found peace, but still check locks at night....old habits

[zachw]

I don't know anybody who has done that, but I do know of a grower who shot an intruder breaking into the house with a legal firearm. Everything was as expected, legally.

 

If we're talking about the same person (an ex-regular here) he did face some serious felony charges. But fortunately got off with probation...

[trichcycler]

If we're talking about the same person (an ex-regular here) he did face some serious felony charges. But fortunately got off with probation...

media link ?

[phaquetoo]

The Duvals also were indicted on two counts of firearms possession but the jury found them not guilty of those crimes. 

 

Read more at: http://www.monroenews.com/news/2012/may/01/summerfield-father-son-convicted-marijuana-offense/

I was going to ask if they were from monroe!

 

I am willing to bet money the dad is a brother or cousin to the duvals that killed two deer hunters in the south branch/ glennie area!

 

There is a book about it, I remember when the hunters went missing, one of them was from st. clair shores where I grew up and the other from warren or that area!

 

I beleive the book is called in the dark of nite!

 

im sure we/I can google it!

 

I have met the only witness, when the kids were younger we actualy bought nite crawlers from her for fishing,,,,,I would tell my son here go get the worms from "The Witness" lmao,,,,,it used to freak him out,,,,,when ever we drove by her house all I had to do is point and he would look the other way,,,,,,yea yea im mean lol!

 

It took 20 yrs to get the duvals involved in the murder,,,,,the state cop that stuck with it wrote the book.

 

It is a good read, seeing as my kids were going to school with their grand kids in Hale, Iosco county!

 

Peace

 

p.s im not saying he was involved in the murder, but all of the duvals were a feared family there untill they got arrested!

 

edit= http://www.northernexpress.com/michigan/article-2305-gruesome-mio-murders.html

Edited January 13, 2016 by phaquetoo

[trichcycler]

Wow phaq! thanks for the possible bio! 

 

I got the feeling from comments on news articles that neighbors didn't like them or their goings on.

[Restorium2]

I think this might be the story where they fed the bodies to the hogs. 

 

I was going to ask if they were from monroe!

 

I am willing to bet money the dad is a brother or cousin to the duvals that killed two deer hunters in the south branch/ glennie area!

 

There is a book about it, I remember when the hunters went missing, one of them was from st. clair shores where I grew up and the other from warren or that area!

 

I beleive the book is called in the dark of nite!

 

im sure we/I can google it!

 

I have met the only witness, when the kids were younger we actualy bought nite crawlers from her for fishing,,,,,I would tell my son here go get the worms from "The Witness" lmao,,,,,it used to freak him out,,,,,when ever we drove by her house all I had to do is point and he would look the other way,,,,,,yea yea im mean lol!

 

It took 20 yrs to get the duvals involved in the murder,,,,,the state cop that stuck with it wrote the book.

 

It is a good read, seeing as my kids were going to school with their grand kids in Hale, Iosco county!

 

Peace

 

p.s im not saying he was involved in the murder, but all of the duvals were a feared family there untill they got arrested!

 

edit= http://www.northernexpress.com/michigan/article-2305-gruesome-mio-murders.html

Edited January 13, 2016 by Restorium2

[trichcycler]

have the convicted been released since then?

[Restorium2]

have the convicted been released since then?

I don't think anyone was ever convicted.

[trichcycler]

"ON A COLD, SNOWY NIGHT IN 1985, TWO MEN BEGGED FOR THEIR LIVES.

In 1985, two 27-year-old friends left their suburban Detroit homes for a hunting trip in rural Michigan. When they did not return, their families and police suspected foul play. For 18 years, no one could prove a thing. Then, a relentless investigator got a witness to talk, and a horrifying story emerged.

 

FOR NEARLY TWO DECADES, THEIR KILLERS WENT FREE.

In 2003, this bizarre case hit the glare of the criminal justice system, as prosecutors charged two brothers, Raymond and Donald Duvall, with murder. With no bodies ever found, the case hinged on the testimony of one terrified witness who saw a bloody scene unfold-and who was still nearly too frightened to talk.

 

THEN A WITNESS TOLD HER CHILLING STORY

Now, the truth behind an 18-year-old mystery is revealed against the backdrop of an unusual, electrifyingly dramatic trial. Raymond and Donald Duvall bragged to friends that they killed their victims, chopped up their bodies and fed them to pigs. A Michigan jury soon had evidence of this brutally methodical execution-evidence that would lead a shocked courtroom through the heart of evil and beyond a shadow of a doubt."