Why Clone Plants May Not Be Identical To Their Mother

[garyfisher]

I've argued with enough know it all clowns on this website about this topic.  Here is the science to back up what I've suggested for years.

 

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804212931.htm
 

Scientists have known for some time that 'clonal' (regenerant) organisms are not always identical: their observable characteristics and traits can vary, and this variation can be passed on to the next generation. This is despite the fact that they are derived from genetically identical founder cells.

Now, a team from Oxford University, UK, and King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, Saudi Arabia, believe they have found out why this is the case in plants: the genomes of regenerant plants carry relatively high frequencies of new DNA sequence mutations that were not present in the genome of the donor plant.

The team report their findings in this week's Current Biology.

'Anyone who has ever taken a cutting from a parent plant and then grown a new plant from this tiny piece is actually harnessing the ability such organisms have to regenerate themselves,' said Professor Nicholas Harberd of Oxford University's Department of Plant Sciences, lead author of the paper. 'But sometimes regenerated plants are not identical, even if they come from the same parent. Our work reveals a cause of that visible variation.'

Using DNA sequencing techniques that can decode the complete genome of an organism in one go (so-called 'whole genome sequencing') the researchers analysed 'clones' of the small flowering plant 'thalecress' (Arabidopsis). They found that observable variations in regenerant plants are substantially due to high frequencies of mutations in the DNA sequence of these regenerants, mutations which are not contained in the genome of the parent plant.

'Where these new mutations actually come from is still a mystery,' said Professor Harberd. 'They may arise during the regeneration process itself or during the cell divisions in the donor plant that gave rise to the root cells from which the regenerant plants are created. We are planning further research to find out which of these two processes is responsible for these mutations. What we can say is that Nature has safely been employing what you might call a 'cloning' process in plants for millions of years, and that there must be good evolutionary reasons why these mutations are introduced.'

The new results suggest that variation in clones of plants may have different underlying causes from that of variation in clones of animals -- where it is believed that the effect of environmental factors on how animal genes are expressed is more important and no similar high frequencies of mutations have been observed.

Professor Harberd said: 'Whilst our results highlight that cloned plants and animals are very different they may give us insights into how both bacterial and cancer cells replicate themselves, and how mutations arise during these processes which, ultimately, have an impact on human health.'

 

Story Source:

The above post is reprinted from materials provided by University of Oxford.Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.

Journal Reference:

1. Caifu Jiang, Aziz Mithani, Xiangchao Gan, Eric J. Belfield, John P. Klingler, Jian-Kang Zhu, Jiannis Ragoussis, Richard Mott, Nicholas P. Harberd.Regenerant Arabidopsis Lineages Display a Distinct Genome-Wide Spectrum of Mutations Conferring Variant Phenotypes. Current Biology, 2011; DOI: 10.1016/j.cub.2011.07.002

 

[trichcycler]

what say them now

maybe some growers observe their produce more closely than others.

 

My wife thinks the windows are clean, if her glasses are

Edited February 25, 2016 by grassmatch

[keylan]

Interesting thanks Gary

[Greg Rx]

It is not about mutations, it is about gene expression. In humans we are finding even a persons thoughts can change how genes are turned on/off. The idea that you have to wait for mutations for evolution is very outdated.  The more you learn, the less you know.

[Restorium2]

How does DNA change?

DNA copies itself

In order for our bodies to grow, cells must divide and make new cells. Each time a cell makes new cells, the DNA has to copy itself for the new cell. This process is called “replication.”

DNA “typos” cause variation

Any time DNA is copied, a mistake or change can occur in the letters of the DNA sequence, or gene. These changes result in variations or differences in DNA from person to person. Most often, this change does not have an effect because it is like a harmless typo—such as a word misspelled—that is small enough that the sentence still makes sense.

The effects of DNA variation

Sometimes, though, this variation changes the meaning of the DNA instructions and the result is a protein may not be made right. This is like a typo within a sentence that causes the sentence to not make sense. Perhaps several words are missing or two sentences got mixed together. In this case, the protein would not work properly.

Variation can be good, neutral, or bad

Changes in instructions (that is, DNA variation) are responsible for many of the differences (such as eye or hair color, height, etc.) we see between individuals. Variations can be good and cause better-than-normal eyesight, for example. Or they can be harmful and cause birth defects or other health problems.

 

[Restorium2]

Many people are used to thinking of DNA as unchanging programming that governs all the body's responses for the rest of a person's life. In essence, certain things about our DNA are unlikely to change, ever. There are a number of outside things that could result in minor DNA change, however.

As you age, for instance, you may note DNA expression changes in a variety of ways. Hair gets gray, skin gets wrinkly, and diseases are more common. The effect of environmental influence onDNA is still being studied intensely, but there are some certain known features. For one thing, changes in DNA may really be better called mutations. The programs in certain cells don’t work as well, and this is reflected in aging. Exactly why certain codes, such as to produce tight skin, don’t work as well isn’t fully known. There is strong supposition, though, that things like sun exposure may change how well DNA operates.

[Greg Rx]

Genes are turned off/on to help the next generation survive. I am guessing that always culling the males causes more hermies. In humans it is called epigenetics.

[Restorium2]

Genes are turned off/on to help the next generation survive. I am guessing that always culling the males causes more hermies. In humans it is called epigenetics.

I have some strains that don't hermie and they have been cloned for about 30 years. Probably over one hundred cycles of cloning from a clone, from a clone, of the original mother plant. 

[trichcycler]

Genes are turned off/on to help the next generation survive. I am guessing that always culling the males causes more hermies. In humans it is called epigenetics.

Yes. variations that are caused by external or environmental factors that switch genes on and off. Like depriving an environment of male plants for natural fertilization, know to influence the sexual expressions of female plant populations, I agree.

[trichcycler]

I never knew of cloning of a clone to influence sex of a down line, I practice the same for a no fuss garden program. The practice can weaken the line and the end of the line is not identical to the first. I do not mean to say "weaken" as in less thc, that's just silly. when some ones strain doesn't work for them anymore, I think its  either  grown differently or they have developed a tolerance buildup and should change up their strain choices and their modes of delivery occasionally to avoid the issue.

 

I see this issue corrected every time I begin anew with a clean cultured copy to refresh the pool once again. Its real obvious to me at that time, not so much before, because I have the current and original record side by side often to observe and sample at the same time. Not even an issue to the home grower but will be essential information to the cropper or commercial grower.

[Greg Rx]

I am just trying to learn. I have been wondering if it is necessary to maintain "mothers" and why. Gary's post just made a connection with something I know about.  Now I need to figure out the significance. Hopping I don't have to be an expert on propagation like GM or can I just continue like Resto. Wouldn't be a big deal if things were as legal as we voted for.

 No reason genetic shift can't be for the better.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Greg Rx

[Restorium2]

I am just trying to learn. I have been wondering if it is necessary to maintain "mothers" and why. Gary's post just made a connection with something I know about.  Now I need to figure out the significance. Hopping I don't have to be an expert on propagation like GM or can I just continue like Resto. Wouldn't be a big deal if things were as legal as we voted for.

 No reason genetic shift can't be for the better.

It depends on the strain. If the breeder got it right then it doesn't drift. That's my experience. Someone else might have a different experience. 

[trichcycler]

I am just trying to learn. I have been wondering if it is necessary to maintain "mothers" and why. Gary's post just made a connection with something I know about.  Now I need to figure out the significance. Hopping I don't have to be an expert on propagation like GM or can I just continue like Resto. Wouldn't be a big deal if things were as legal as we voted for.

 No reason genetic shift can't be for the better.

for what its worth. I don't keep moms, and would do the same without microprops. I clone from a clone, hundreds of gens downline, sometimes going years before refreshing the line with clean genes once again. I first counted on grafted multi strain plants as moms, because I thought I had to keep moms and that made sense to me. I knew right away that I needed to provide several strains and 12 moms didn't do it for me with the xtra counts. I would have carried my hobby to cannabis anyhow, but listing some excuses.

 

With clean cloning practices a clone of a clone should be fine for most forever perhaps, or not. Once I was intimately involved with a line, its hundreds of copies over and over, and compared over all expressions to traditionally cloned plants, multiple times with multiple lines, the differences between a newly cultured plant, and the 200th clone/clone are evident to me. Some may have no sense of these differences, may not matter to them even. doesn't matter to me much either, but I have the luxury and expertise necessary to study and detect these differences, and also to avoid them.

 

I use culturing as my fun hobby, and extending it to cannabis seemed natural to me. My tissue bank really just acts as my seed bank, with extra thrills and fringe benefits, one being a garden full of plants that exhibit NO ills, NO mites ever, predictable results every time, and no surprises or growing troubles. Maybe I'm that good, or maybe its because I start with great superior clean disease free samples that mites cannot stand, or just lucky. My only practice I know that differs from other growers is my tissue cultured starts, the rest is the same. I have to continue what I do now so I can avoid those nasty mites and the other garden issues I see reported often.

 

drift could be as simple as the successive cloning of an infected plant. These infections reside inside of the plant and cannot be detected easily except with symptom examination. Pathogens, virus', bacteria can fester forever infecting downlines. It could potentially go on forever and without a clean start maybe never noticed for lack of comparison. not to mention the very real genetic changes caused by such infections that can and will multiplied through successive cloning, again maybe never being noticed by the typical grower. Being a boutique grower in this program allows me to pay very close attention to these plants' individuality in real time, a luxury croppers and commercial growers might not enjoy.

Edited February 28, 2016 by grassmatch

[cristinew]

Never had  a Mother  plant  ever  Just clone before i flower  been the same plant for years,  I haven't seen any difference  

[Norby]

Some change and some don't.  I have one that has chenged flavor but I'm not sure if its changing the ferilizer or genetic.  Everything else seems to stay well from clone of clones.  Never kept a mother myself.

[beourbud]

Some change and some don't. I have one that has chenged flavor but I'm not sure if its changing the ferilizer or genetic. Everything else seems to stay well from clone of clones. Never kept a mother myself.

It's the nutes.

 

Two growers , twin clones, different nute ratios / ferts =. Different flavor

I liken it to meats that have been fed different feeds. They taste different.

 

Other observations

 

Clones cut in veg have proven consistent with stable genetics. No drift observed

 

Clones with unstable genetics can have a high incidence of hermie. Even cut in veg.

 

Clones cut late from unstable genetics almost always hermie.

 

Clones cut late, even stable genetics can hermie.

This might be similar to the changes in DNA as we grow older as Resto pointed out.

 

Of course all from same light sources.

 

.$.02

Edited February 29, 2016 by beourbud

[Wild Bill]

If cannabis is allowed to grow wild it will eventually adopt the characteristics of the wild cannabis indigenous to the area. It changes to match the conditions it grows in.

[orion]

Thanks for posting the article. My experience with cloning says the article is spot on.

[Greg Rx]

What a valuable discussion. Thanks to all.