House Bill No. 5800

[Alphabob]

Here is an article from late 2015 that discusses the various interests.

 

On November 10, representatives of the Michigan Chiefs of Police (MCP), Prosecuting Attorneys Association of Michigan (PAAM), Michigan State Police (MSP) and the Michigan Sheriffs Association (MSA) gave testimony in the Senate Judiciary on a trio of medical marijuana bills proposing to establish new dispensary laws and change current language in the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act.

 

Committee Chair Sen. Rick Jones allowed only these specially-selected groups to tell him what they want him to change. No citizens were allowed to testify, just cops and lawyers.

 

http://www.theweedblog.com/cops-to-senate-eliminate-the-marijuana-caregiver-system-in-michigan/

 

I don’t see any dispensary interests in there, just the top players from our judicial system. What do these people want?

 

1. Banning the caregiver system.
2. Refusing to ever support medical marijuana.
3. Banning all edibles.
4. Increase DREs while taxing patients to pay for it, implement saliva tests and remove patient protections on the road.
5. Choice of either dispensary or caregiver, but not both.
6. Tax patients for their medicine and give the proceeds to the county sheriffs.
7. Banning BHO.
8. Allow inspections and access at all times.
9. Testing and labeling of products.
10. Switch from product weight to THC limits.
11. Ban all delivery services.

 

Seems like everything that has happened and everything being pushed for originated within our judicial system. A very small minority in Michigan’s overall population, yet with near 100% power and control. All they care about is money and power.

[bax]

Alpha, check out these threads, too:

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/47809-sheriffs-assoc-and-assoc-of-chiefs-of-police-opinion-on-hb-5104/

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/50234-executive-director-of-macp-calls-mmma-a-sham-2015/

[+Malamute]

Here is an article from late 2015 that discusses the various interests.

 

On November 10, representatives of the Michigan Chiefs of Police (MCP), Prosecuting Attorneys Association of Michigan (PAAM), Michigan State Police (MSP) and the Michigan Sheriffs Association (MSA) gave testimony in the Senate Judiciary on a trio of medical marijuana bills proposing to establish new dispensary laws and change current language in the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act.

 

Committee Chair Sen. Rick Jones allowed only these specially-selected groups to tell him what they want him to change. No citizens were allowed to testify, just cops and lawyers.

 

http://www.theweedblog.com/cops-to-senate-eliminate-the-marijuana-caregiver-system-in-michigan/

 

I don’t see any dispensary interests in there, just the top players from our judicial system. What do these people want?

 

1. Banning the caregiver system.

2. Refusing to ever support medical marijuana.

3. Banning all edibles.

4. Increase DREs while taxing patients to pay for it, implement saliva tests and remove patient protections on the road.

5. Choice of either dispensary or caregiver, but not both.

6. Tax patients for their medicine and give the proceeds to the county sheriffs.

7. Banning BHO.

8. Allow inspections and access at all times.

9. Testing and labeling of products.

10. Switch from product weight to THC limits.

11. Ban all delivery services.

 

Seems like everything that has happened and everything being pushed for originated within our judicial system. A very small minority in Michigan’s overall population, yet with near 100% power and control. All they care about is money and power.

 

Exactly Alpha.

 

The dispensary interests then say they will allow numbers 1, 4,5,6. 7,8,9, 10 and 11if they are allowed to have dispensaries.  That is exactly the point, the issue and the dilemma I have dealt with for years now. 

 

 At what cost?  At what cost to patients, caregivers, physicians, privacy, home growing and the MMMAct will it take to get commercialized marijuana in Michigan?  Is it worth it?

 

At what cost?

 

 No, seriously;  at what fukn cost is it worth it?

 

I said those numbers because 100% all those numbers and more have been agreed to at one point or another over the last years.

[Kingdiamond]

I'll have to make sure to tell all my friends in the Flint area that in addition to not drinking the water, they should also not do any business with Michigan Organic Solutions. They are obviously in league with those who would restrict our rights.

 

Time for them to go out of business.

Go to google and leave them a nasty review like I just did...

[free420country]

That's crazy, let's hope they don't get the votes

[Alphabob]

 

Exactly Alpha.

 

The dispensary interests then say they will allow numbers 1, 4,5,6. 7,8,9, 10 and 11if they are allowed to have dispensaries.  That is exactly the point, the issue and the dilemma I have dealt with for years now. 

 

 At what cost?  At what cost to patients, caregivers, physicians, privacy, home growing and the MMMAct will it take to get commercialized marijuana in Michigan?  Is it worth it?

 

At what cost?

 

 No, seriously;  at what fukn cost is it worth it?

 

I said those numbers because 100% all those numbers and more have been agreed to at one point or another over the last years.

I just don’t see how the dispensaries have any real say in this. What powers do they hold over the various branches of government?

 

How does the collective of dispensaries in Michigan have any say over what laws are going to be passed, i.e. what do they have to offer in the first place? They don't get to cast votes on the bills and they are not 200,000+ voters in the MMJ system. The fact that we don’t have a dispensary law says to me that they hold very little if any power over the judicial or legislative branches. They were not even listed in the exclusive meetings held by Jones. So if a deal was made, they gave nothing up of their own and received nothing in return... that doesn't sound like a deal to me.

 

There may be a few ‘bad apples’ in the legislative and judicial branches who plan to profit on future marijuana laws, or maybe have their buddies get in on it. However, the vast majority of these objectives seem to be focused on the following.

 

1. Drastically decreasing access for patients, both in suppliers, methods of use and affordability.

2. Having patients and caregivers pay for their own harassment by law-enforcement.

3. Centralize access points for easier raid targets and larger forfeitures.

4. Making the system so regulated that they can still run their departments and courts off proceeds from the medical marijuana community.

 

If they pass their supposedly agreed upon dispensary bill then I'll be open to changing my mind, but I doubt that will be happening anytime soon.

 

In addition, the groups that initially supported the dispensary bill are no longer in favor of it after Rick Jones laid hands on it; i.e. National Patients Rights Association (NPRA), MPP and Michigan Cannabis Development Association (I'm unsure about Ann Arbor of Lansing Cannabis Guild's position at the moment).

 

Supporters like Thompson told FOX 17 they are no longer on board with these bills, but still support the non-smoking bill, or medical marijuana concentrates legalization through HB 4210. The National Patients Rights Association Legislative Liaison Robin Schneider was also not attendance Tuesday but told FOX 17 both NPRA and several pediatric patient groups do not support the added regulations; instead they favor “vertically integrated” companies that would create a more affordable system for patients to get their medicine.

 

http://mcdagroup.com/

 

What you are saying seems more along the lines of what the MMMreport claims as of this month,

 

National Patients Rights Association (NPRA), MPP, Michigan Cannabis Development Association, Ann Arbor Cannabis Guild and the Lansing Cannabis Guild have actively been working to pass these bills, and have been willing to compromise patient and caregivers right to grow in exchange for the state to license their dispensaries and commercial growing.

 

http://www.mmmrmag.com/images/AUG16_mmmreport_WEB.pdf

 

Somewhere there is misinformation going on.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Alphabob

[+Malamute]

Alphabob,  I may be one ofthe few that will actually tell you the truth.

 

If you do not understand how hundreds of thousands of dollars and the most prestigious lobbying firms can influence legislation, than I cannot pull your head out of the sand. 

 

Almost all meetings are done well before a public meeting happens.  dozens of behind closed door meetings and task forces working on the legislation.

 

There are not 200 000 voters in the MJ system and most could care less.  Empty threats my friend, empty threats.

 

 So if a deal was made, they gave nothing up of their own and received nothing in return... that doesn't sound like a deal to me.

 

 

 Dispensary interests offer all that crap up constantly with no guarantees for their legislation. Makes it even sadder aye?

 

 

If they pass their supposedly agreed upon dispensary bill then I'll be open to changing my mind

 

 

And you wont believe dispensaries are screwing you until after they pullout and blow restrictions all over your back?  Way to stay lucid there bob.

 

 

In addition, the groups that initially supported the dispensary bill are no longer in favor of it after Rick Jones laid hands on it; i.e. National Patients Rights Association (NPRA), MPP and Michigan Cannabis Development Association (I'm unsure about Ann Arbor of Lansing Cannabis Guild's position at the moment).

 

 

 The only thing they are actually mad about is the fact that Jones wants distributors used like in the liquor industry and dispensaries only want transporters.

 

One will buy and test the meds then sell to retailers; the other just picks up and delivers between growers, testing, processing and retail. Basically, the dispensaries want to cut out the 5% profit margin distributors will have, to replace it with expensive overly regulated transporters that will cost like 2.5%.   Otherwise, they support the bills.

 

They also support amendments to the Act requiring caregivers to fully label their products, keep travel itineraries and adding more laws and penalties into the Act.  They support the frick out of that the dispensaries do.

 

 And lastly,  the mmmreport is done by Ben Horner(dispensaries owner).  Refer to my previous post about ben and what he was willing to give up and more..

 

 

News article 2014:

 

 

LANSING- Will Michigan impose a brand-new set of rules to establish a blood-level limit on THC, similar to a blood alcohol content level, to catch people driving under the influence of marijuana? They will, if dispensary owner Ben Horner from Flint has his way.

Horner stunned the medical marijuana advocates in attendance during the Michigan House Judiciary Committee meeting Thursday, April 17 when he volunteered the program to state legislators. He repeated the call for the program during a broadcast of the Planet Green Trees Internet Radio Show (PGT) later that same day. For a more thorough report on that Committee meeting please see the accompanying article.

Horner described a scheme in which those patients currently enrolled in the Michigan Medical Marihuana Program would be legally allowed to drive an automobile with up to 8 nanograms of THC per liter of blood, and non-patients would be given a tolerance level of 5 nanograms of THC.

Horner was announced in Committee as the leader of the Cannabis Stakeholder’s Group and was accompanied at the hearing by Lansing lobbyist Bill Zaagman. He offered the program during debate on a package of bills that proposes to establish a roadside saliva test to check automobile drivers for the presence of THC and other Schedule 1 drugs. Marijuana advocates had gathered for the House committee meeting to challenge the science of saliva testing and to dispute the presumption that any amount of THC in a driver’s blood stream constitutes impairment.

No legislator has suggested the nanogram driving limit; it was not part of the package of bills being debated; Horner’s suggestion took the assembled advocates- and legislators- by surprise.

 

 

[+Malamute]

Now back to my question Alpha bob:

 

 At what cost is it ok for you?

[trichcycler]

"....turned dispensaries into dens of illegal drug dealing"

 

what does he think MI dispensaries were  before this turn ?

Edited August 7, 2016 by trichcycler

[+Malamute]

"Right now, we have a package of bills that would do that, and in a way that would be acceptable to police, acceptable to the cities and townships, and acceptable I think to most of the patients," said Jones, a former sheriff of Eaton County and chair of the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee.

 

 

 

....or so the commercial marijuana lobbyists and their pawns tell them

[Alphabob]

 

Alphabob,  I may be one of the few that will actually tell you the truth.

 

If you do not understand how hundreds of thousands of dollars and the most prestigious lobbying firms can influence legislation, than I cannot pull your head out of the sand. 

 

Almost all meetings are done well before a public meeting happens.  dozens of behind closed door meetings and task forces working on the legislation.

 

There are not 200 000 voters in the MJ system and most could care less.  Empty threats my friend, empty threats.

 

I can understand lobbying being part of the offer to legislatures, but what I’m trying to say is that these groups have nothing to offer that the government couldn’t take on its own. For example, every change being made was already wanted by LEO and the judicial system, which is a much stronger lobbying group with direct ties to Rick Jones. Thus even if some dispensary groups didn’t supposedly sell out the medical community, these changes would have occurred anyways. Some dispensary groups may be on the wrong side, but they are not the central issue. An out of control police state that runs off robbing and unfairly taxing its citizens is the issue. That is their end-game, to make the MMMA into an even greater cash cow for LEO, not private interests.

 

 

 Dispensary interests offer all that crap up constantly with no guarantees for their legislation. Makes it even sadder aye?

 

Yes and that is why lobbying is probably the better word for what's going on rather than cutting deals. These dispensary groups are not going to get what they want with Rick Jones in charge and have yet to receive anything. The only ones who would be supportive of the current bill are likely not operating dispensaries at the moment, as they would begin to loss a significant amount of profits from the over-regulation.

 

 

 

And you wont believe dispensaries are screwing you until after they pullout and blow restrictions all over your back?  Way to stay lucid there bob.

 

I do not believe all dispensaries are on the same side. There are clearly certain groups who are making the bad decisions and lobbying. I don't support cutting off the caregiver system, but my number one priority is the patients. We need easy to access and affordable, high quality meds that are not covered in toxic chemicals. We also need a choice of growing it ourselves unless insurance is going to pay for the additional costs of a centralized system. Otherwise the black market is going to make a strong come back.

 

 

 And lastly,  the mmmreport is done by Ben Horner(dispensaries owner).  Refer to my previous post about ben and what he was willing to give up and more..

 

Are any of the groups still willing to push the dispensary bill after the recent changes? Horner now seems focused on defeating the bill and several other groups who initially supported it no longer do. Their original goals of having a dispensary bill seem to still be there however, as they want to try again from scratch in 2017.

 

by Ben Horner

 

HB 4209, the Michigan Medical Marihuana Facilities Act has been stalled again in the Michigan Senate. HB 4209 is designed to create a state regulatory model for dispensaries, and while in the hands of Senator Jones in the Judicial Committee, two other bills have been added to control seed-to-sale and distribution via secured transportation services, which would theoretically act as a completely regulated commercial cultivation system.

 

National Patients Rights Association (NPRA), MPP, Michigan Cannabis Development Association, Ann Arbor Cannabis Guild and the Lansing Cannabis Guild have actively been working to pass these bills, and have been willing to compromise patient and caregivers right to grow in exchange for the state to license their dispensaries and commercial growing. Two Groups, Evergreen Management and the Cannabis Stakeholders Group, have actively been trying to expose these corrupt officials that want to turn cannabis into a private government controlled program similar to the way the state regulates gambling, tobacco, and alcohol.

The legislative lame duck session will be coming up shortly after the election in November. Jones has vowed to make another attempt to pass the bills that nearly all patients and caregivers are against at this point. If patients, caregivers and small business owners want to prevent this from happening and wait to retry from scratch in 2017, a massive organizing effort must take place. The Cannabis Stakeholders Group will be working with groups like Evergreen Management to make this happen and continue the advocate for comprehensive legislation and local initiatives that work for all Michiganders, not just the 1%.

 

http://www.mmmrmag.com/images/AUG16_mmmreport_WEB.pdf

Edited August 7, 2016 by Alphabob

[+Malamute]

I can understand lobbying being part of the offer to legislatures, but what I’m trying to say is that these groups have nothing to offer that the government couldn’t take on its own. Furthermore, every change being made was already wanted by LEO and the judicial system, which is a much stronger lobbying group. Thus even if some dispensary groups didn’t supposedly sell out the medical community, these changes would have occurred anyways. Some dispensary groups may be on the wrong side, but they are not the central issue. An out of control police state that runs off robbing and unfairly taxing its citizens is the issue. That is their end-game, to make the MMMA into an even greater cash cow for LEO, not private interests.

 

 

Not true actually. They have tried to take it on their own and have failed due to some very diligent patient advocates.  The legislature needs cover to get the 75% needed.  Put enough fake commercial patients groups in front of them and the legislators feel they may have enough cover.  They also offer money and opportunity. As well as many other unintended benefits.   Yes the police want certain things.  The police don't get everything they want if we stand up.  Unfortunately, commercialists love to work with the police. Workout deals  with the police lobbyists.

 

 

 

Yes and that is why lobbying is probably the better word for what's going on rather than cutting deals. These dispensary groups are not going to get what they want with Rick Jones in charge and have yet to receive anything. The only ones who would be supportive of the current bill are likely not operating dispensaries at the moment, as they would begin to loss a significant amount of profits from the over-regulation.

 

 

This is a very narrow and naïve viewpoint.   There are all of the above occurring. Deals, lobbying, bargains, backstabs, offers,  etc going on all the time. 

 

Rick jones is actually pushing these bills super hard to be passed. He isn't the problem really.  Sure the whole distributor/transporter issue has caused bit of a roar, but otherwise, he has worked hard to get them passed.  The votes just haven't been there yet. *shrug*

 

Commercial groups push daily to pass these bills. All of them.  They may want one or two changes, but they all are pushing for them to pass. REALLY HARD.

 

 

 

I do not believe all dispensaries are on the same side. There are clearly certain groups who are making the bad decisions and lobbying. I don't support cutting off the caregiver system, but my number one priority is the patients. We need easy to access and affordable, high quality meds that are not covered in toxic chemicals. We also need a choice of growing it ourselves unless insurance is going to pay for the additional costs of a centralized system. Otherwise the black market is going to make a strong come back.

 

 

Ok sure. The mythical unicorn dispensary owner. Can you even name 5?

 

 The fact is they all want to make dispensaries legal because they are currently illegal. They may say they don't want any patient restrictions, but if dispensaries become legal and say caregivers get restricted, they will only shed a crocodile tear.  So sure, maybe not 100%, but definitely the VAST majority.

 

" I don't support cutting off the caregiver system (restricting though?), BUT....."

 

That statement is scary to me,  it shows you are willing under certain circumstances, or would suffer it for the 'greater' good in your eyes.

 

 We need easy to access and affordable, high quality meds that are not covered in toxic chemicals.

 

 

 Theres probably 30,000 caregivers in the state doing that right now.  For cheaper. And they usually deliver.  *shrug*

 

We also need a choice of growing it ourselves unless insurance is going to pay for the additional costs of a centralized system. Otherwise the black market is going to make a strong come back.

 

 

 So only need home growing until "insurance" pays for it? Then we no longer need home growing?  And the black market? Oh so scary. The evil cannabis black market.

O yea,  and a centralized system aye?  That is the absolute exact opposite of what i strive and fight for.

 

 

 

 

Are any of the groups still willing to push the dispensary bill after the recent changes? Horner now seems focused on defeating the bill and several other groups who initially supported it no longer do. Their original goals of having a dispensary bill seem to still be there however, as they want to try again from scratch in 2017.

 

 

 

 All groups are still trying to pass those bills.

 

Horner is talking out both sides of his asss. I am tired of typing, but I may comeback and do a whole post on Horners nonsense.

[beourbud]

"....turned dispensaries into dens of illegal drug dealing"

 

what does he think MI dispensaries were  before this turn ?

The repub reps are in bed with the cartels and Leo

 

Leo has always and will continue be a driving force in the black market until we remove any financial incentive for them to remain in the equation.

 

Leo is trying to make the law instead of enforcing the will of the people.

 

Leo profit is more priority than your freedom.

 

Vote every republican out,

[beourbud]

I don't know.

 

You'd think an alphabob would be able to see thru the Commercial Disp Lobby BS........ if he wanted to.

 

Otherwise aren't ya just another bob?

Edited August 7, 2016 by beourbud

[Alphabob]

Not true actually. They have tried to take it on their own and have failed due to some very diligent patient advocates.  The legislature needs cover to get the 75% needed.  Put enough fake commercial patients groups in front of them and the legislators feel they may have enough cover.  They also offer money and opportunity. As well as many other unintended benefits.   Yes the police want certain things.  The police don't get everything they want if we stand up.  Unfortunately, commercialists love to work with the police. Workout deals  with the police lobbyists.

 

Dispensary interests were not the ones passing the illegal transport law after significant push back from the community. They were not the ones putting the Swift family on display for a saliva-test sympathy vote right after AAA called the ‘science’ BS. If the police state really wants to pass something, it will do so regardless of push back from the citizens or even science for that matter. I can't attest one way or the other whether this lobbying attempt had any real chance of succeeding; whether or not patient advocates effectively blocked their attempts. I can only demonstrate that they didn't get what they were asking for and that judicial interests are winning in this regard, not the citizens. But when the system is corrupt to the point where punishment typically begins at first encounter and fighting back in court is the exception, it doesn’t really matter if they get 75% to modify the MMMA as we have seen. LEO does whatever they want, cause you know… they are super awesome.

 

It isn’t just independent groups lobbying either, it’s the Chiefs of Police, Prosecuting Attorneys Association of Michigan, State Police and the Sheriffs Association (in addition to the AG). When those groups say no, bills get automatically shutdown. When they say yes, they pass even against significant push back. I have never seen any interest group more powerful then these guys and they have no right being in that position. How many times has there been a last minute call from these guys and a planned bill never comes up for discussion?

 

Furthermore, the bills will not even make it to the floor without passing through the judicial committee, which is headed by Rick Jones. And from what I’ve seen, Jones isn’t going to be pushing any dispensary bill unless it financially benefits the sheriff departments, other LEO organizations and their buddies. I don't see how either side could come to a compromise, because they are both fighting over who gets to profit. But in terms of who has near absolute power and who doesn't need to compromise with others, well that's the police state; so expect their version of things to be pushed through if they decide to do so, not the dispensary groups. It's more like the judicial system is hijacking the lobbyists attempts at hijacking our act.

 

Ok sure. The mythical unicorn dispensary owner. Can you even name 5?

 

 The fact is they all want to make dispensaries legal because they are currently illegal. They may say they don't want any patient restrictions, but if dispensaries become legal and say caregivers get restricted, they will only shed a crocodile tear.  So sure, maybe not 100%, but definitely the VAST majority.

 

There are several locations where dispensaries can operate without being harassed. In fact, I don't quite understand why a group from Ann Arbor would want to modify dispensary laws as no one is bothering them. I don't understand why any operating dispensary would want more restriction unless they are operating in a not-so-safe area. This alone leads me to believe that at least some of these groups consist of rich, outside interests that want to open 'legal' dispensaries in Michigan.

 

 

That statement is scary to me,  it shows you are willing under certain circumstances, or would suffer it for the 'greater' good in your eyes.

 

The MMMAs purpose was to allow citizens in Michigan to grow or obtain medical marijuana to treat their conditions, not to financially support individuals by letting them grow plants. I'm for whatever system would provide the most affordable, highest quality medicine as possible. What they are proposing is definitely not that, and I believe the proper system would be a hybrid. Overages go to dispensaries, allow some quality control, ramp up competition to lower prices and the patients get to choose where they go. Then if your a good caregiver you would have nothing to worry about; everyone wins except for the crappy growers who shouldn't be growing.

 

 

 Theres probably 30,000 caregivers in the state doing that right now.  For cheaper. And they usually deliver.  *shrug*

 

 

I would say that at minimum half the caregivers out there do not know how to properly grow or produce medicinal quality. Many also use toxic chemicals around the plants, which are never tested or checked for. I know a dispensary that charges CGs $50 to test their bud in Ann Arbor, compare that to a pound and your talking about a 2% markup in price to keep patients safe. And yes, dispensaries usually cost more than caregivers but not always. My first CG was charging $180 a month for garbage, I went to several dispensaries and dropped to ~$120 per month. Now with another CG I'm around $80 per month, so it varies by quite a lot. The thing is, I needed good meds at the start. I didn't have 16 months to search around and would have been better off just going to a dispensary until I found someone legit.

 

 

All groups are still trying to pass those bills.

 

Horner is talking out both sides of his asss. I am tired of typing, but I may comeback and do a whole post on Horners nonsense.

 

Well if that's true then these people are lying. But there are a lot of aspects that do not make sense to me when looking at the bigger picture, at least if these groups still support the garbage Jones came up with.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Alphabob

[BirdHunter]

I bet this will move as soon as the appeals are opined on the current illegal transport in the penal code. They will see the error, and they will include the fix in this bill. The "need" will be there to pass it. Lame duck in December sounds about right.

Edited August 8, 2016 by BirdHunter

[Willy]

 They will see the error, and they will include the fix in this bill. The "need" will be there to pass it. Lame duck in December sounds about right.

Nice thought but I am very doubtful... they still have the arrest them all let the courts sort it out.. mentality...

[Alphabob]

Except what is the nature of that "safety test?" If you check into that test further, you'll see there's nothing about that test that ensures patient safety at all. It's nothing but a flawed potency test.

 

In addition, how can you possibly compute or predict a percentage of caregivers and their skill level? From two caregivers you've met? Or the caregivers running and growing for the dispensary?

 

I didn’t ask them what method the lab they send samples to uses, but probably HPLC-MS. They listed several cannabinoids on the labels with good quality bud, though very few dispensaries in Michigan actually do this. Any qualified lab should have a database of various chemicals such as pesticides that will show up as peaks in the results. They have further implemented systems in other states to detect pesticides and allow only certain products to be used. This probably won’t detect trace amounts, but they are working on that also. If people want to trust and buy direct from CGs that's up to them, but for stores putting products on shelves testing should be required.

 

I’ve seen around half a dozen grows, heard about many more and sampled a dozen or so dispensaries around Michigan. If there are 30,000 CG that’s about 1 in every 330 people. I doubt there are even that many botanists in this country. Based on what I’ve seen I believe 50% is a reasonable estimate for being able to produce medicinal quality products, and probably around 10-20% for people who shouldn’t even be growing. When considering all the factors however, finding a good CG can take some time. Price, quantity, quality, distance, personality, dependability, ect. It would be interesting to do a survey on here to see how many caregivers people have gone through, either connected or not. Maybe see how many dispensaries people have gone through also.

 

Growing good bud however isn’t as easy as most think, especially for beginners who try using hydro. You need to know the basics of several natural sciences to do it properly, either that or you learned over years through trial-n-error or had someone teach you. There’s chemistry, botany/biology, physics (some quantum mechanics if you really want to understand light efficiency), electrical engineering, ect. I've seen what happens when people do not understand the basics of this and it isn't pretty. Extension cords about to catch fire, fried plants, gnat infestations, diseased plants with malnutrition, 1500W+ of light being wasted, 'quick drying', refusal to properly cure and too many others to list. It's like those people who buy a restaurant and store cooked meat on top of the raw, there are people out there who are lazy and not very bright.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Alphabob

[Highlander]

Just so people know, a statistically valid sample size from a population of 33,000 (with a confidence level of 5% and a confidence interval of 5) would be 380.  You'd need to assess the meds of 380 caregivers in order to make a valid claim that the selected caregivers are representative of the entire population of CGs. 

 

And of course, these would be CGs selected at random, which is nearly impossible.

 

It is reasonable to expect that the CGs who are the most careful legally (don't sell overages, don't enter contests, etc.) are probably also the better growers.

 

Sampling meds from CGs who sell to dispensaries probably won't provide a suitable cross section of CGs across the state no matter how many you sample.

[Alphabob]

I'm sorry, but all this is wrong. We've done a few Planet Green Trees shows documenting where all the technology and business practices are at. That was several years ago, but we keep track of current goings on. It hasn't changed.

 

From some searches on Google last night I found a few recent articles showing companies being fined for pesticide use, several mentions of banned growing products, funding into trace detection, published HPLC-MS results showing 5 out of 37 with high levels from Washington dispensaries, ect. Even in states that regulate what products growers use, some producers are putting hidden pesticides in their 'organic' products and mislabeling them. I know that some CGs spray pesticides indoors around their plants also, it may be a very small minority but it happens.

 

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2016/02/11/23553397/washington-state-fines-two-marijuana-growers-for-using-prohibited-pesticides

http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_flags_potential_problem.html

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/03/21/23800116/a-clarification-and-some-more-context-about-last-weeks-pesticide-testing-results

 

 

I hope you can see that you are attempting to judge 30,000 people from a sample size of 12. 12 self-selected samples of caregivers that either do not have 5 patients, or don't care how many they sell to. This self-selecting group will generally have more problems than the others.

 

Just so people know, a statistically valid sample size from a population of 33,000 (with a confidence level of 5% and a confidence interval of 5) would be 380.  You'd need to assess the meds of 380 caregivers in order to make a valid claim that the selected caregivers are representative of the entire population of CGs. 

 

And of course, these would be CGs selected at random, which is nearly impossible.

 

It is reasonable to expect that the CGs who are the most careful legally (don't sell overages, don't enter contests, etc.) are probably also the better growers.

 

Sampling meds from CGs who sell to dispensaries probably won't provide a suitable cross section of CGs across the state no matter how many you sample.

 

If you include samples from dispensaries and how their suppliers change over time, it is still a somewhat significant result. I typically purchase products from top to bottom shelves, choosing the best they can offer. So 25+ dispensary trips (~12 different places), 3 – 5 different strains per visit plus the 10 or so I’ve directly sampled from other CG/growers. That is 85 – 135 samples. Maybe the conditions I have seen or heard about in grow rooms consist of a smaller sample, but I have a general understanding of the quality among growers.

 

And yes there are always additional factors that may or may not play a role. I’m not planning to publish a scientific article on this, just saying what I’ve seen from CGs to dispensaries. ‘Medicinal quality’ is a subjective term. I’m not saying 50% poison their crops with pesticides or that 50% can’t keep a plant alive. It is just my opinion on who can produce properly grown, dried and cured bud suitable for treating debilitating medical conditions.

[Highlander]

From some searches on Google last night I found a few recent articles showing companies being fined for pesticide use, several mentions of banned growing products, funding into trace detection, published HPLC-MS results showing 5 out of 37 with high levels from Washington dispensaries, ect. Even in states that regulate what products growers use, some producers are putting hidden pesticides in their 'organic' products and mislabeling them. I know that some CGs spray pesticides indoors around their plants also, it may be a very small minority but it happens.

 

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2016/02/11/23553397/washington-state-fines-two-marijuana-growers-for-using-prohibited-pesticides

http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_flags_potential_problem.html

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/03/21/23800116/a-clarification-and-some-more-context-about-last-weeks-pesticide-testing-results

 

 

 

 

If you include samples from dispensaries and how their suppliers change over time, it is still a somewhat significant result. I typically purchase products from top to bottom shelves, choosing the best they can offer. So 25+ dispensary trips (~12 different places), 3 – 5 different strains per visit plus the 10 or so I’ve directly sampled from other CG/growers. That is 85 – 135 samples. Maybe the conditions I have seen or heard about in grow rooms consist of a smaller sample, but I have a general understanding of the quality among growers.

 

And yes there are always additional factors that may or may not play a role. I’m not planning to publish a scientific article on this, just saying what I’ve seen from CGs to dispensaries. ‘Medicinal quality’ is a subjective term. I’m not saying 50% poison their crops with pesticides or that 50% can’t keep a plant alive. It is just my opinion on who can produce properly grown, dried and cured bud suitable for treating debilitating medical conditions.

 

Granted, you aren't presenting a scientific analysis, but there are some other items to consider. 

 

Of those 12 dispensaries, were any two or more supplied by the same CG? 

 

With repeat trips to the same dispensaries, were any of the products from the same CG and just the day of the visit was different? 

 

Are the "top shelf" meds on the top shelf because they are big, tight buds and tested high for THC? 

 

Is it likely that the CGs who use chemical sprays are more likely to grow buds that look good, smell good, and have higher THC because the chemicals killed the bugs and powdery mildew, resulting in an overall healthier plant? 

 

Are CGs generally more likely to sell buds with chemical sprays to a dispensary than to one of their five patients who might be family or friends or because  they don't want to lose a patient? 

 

Are the type of CGs who want to make a bunch of money selling MMJ and depend on the income more likely to try to save the crop (and their livelihood) with chemical sprays? 

 

Are the CGs who are willing to take the risk of selling to a dispensary more likely to not care about health risks to their patients?

 

Are the buds at a dispensary not dried and cured properly because the CG is rushing supply to the market?

 

Are growers who sell to dispensaries growing a maximum number of plants, which is much harder to manage from a quality standpoint (inviting the need for chemical control) than growing a small number for a maximum of six people?

 

Are the master growers who have been doing this for years more likely to have an established network to, sell to such that they don't sell to dispensaries or "any" patient so that it would be near impossible to even sample their meds?

 

 

"but I have a general understanding of the quality among growers." 

 

This is what I'm questioning.  Your experience certainly shows that you have a general understanding of the quality among growers you've been exposed to.  But is there a significant bias in your sampling towards inexperienced, profit-seeking growers, and are you missing out on a whole other category of grower?  Even a sample size of 380 CGs who sell to dispensaries would not be valid because it would not be a random sampling of growers overall.  It would be biased towards a certain category of grower who (in my opinion) is much more likely to use poor growing practices.

[Alphabob]

Yes and those are all good examples as to why it would be difficult to get an exact answer, especially when considering that ‘medical quality’ is a subjective term. As you said, one product may be potent and contaminated while another mediocre and clean/organic. Obviously I can't detect pesticides when I smoke, so I was basing it off mostly quality. IMO medical quality should be both potent and uncontaminated. With 13.5% of the Washington samples being contaminated with pesticides alone, I would say that it is certainly greater than 10% when considering poor quality also.

 

Either way, we have gone way off topic. I was attempting to demonstrate that there are many more roadblocks to implementing ones own dispensary bill than simply lobbying. The police state controls what is discussed and passed in regards to medical marijuana. They have proven this on several occasions. These people can lobby all they want, but the only reason Jones is excited to bring up a dispensary bill is because he and his buddies will benefit from it. Call it whatever you want, but I don’t believe the dispensary lobbies are the central problem here. They could be an annoyance that is strongly disliked by the CG community, but look at who actually has power behind the scenes and their motives. The bills won't even make it to the lobbyist's targets unless it is OKed by the judicial system first.

[Alphabob]

A sample of 10 provides an error bound of 32%, so what was observed in Washington is consistent with what I’ve seen myself. If I’ve sampled even 50 different growers from dispensaries that is an error of 14%. So it is very unlikely (although not impossible) that I have a biased sample.

 

Just because I support increased access for those who cannot find good caregivers does not skew my perspective for all CG. However, if there are so many good, easy to access CG out there then why is the dispensary business booming? It’s because bad CG exist, people’s crops die or get infested, ect.

 

But I can’t agree with claims that every CG is perfect or that the issues affecting the MMMA community are due to a single lobbying effort for dispensaries. I’m all for a common sense system that will work with everyone except for the people who's patients are running away from them. One side wants to screw over all the patients who can’t find good CG, the other wants to screw over CG and anyone who isn’t rich. I’m on the side who doesn’t want to screw over anyone except for the greedy republican police state and wealthy special interests; it's as simple as that.

[+Malamute]

Theres actually around 36,000 caregivers.

 

Used to be more.  I think many of the bad Cg's have weeded themselves out. Overall quality has definitely risen over the last several years.  Cg quality has always been higher than dispensary quality.  People are growing for quantity and  turnover in the commercial zone. ALSO in Michigan, most dispensaries are growing their own  and buying from their friends mostly.  So it honestly reflects badly on the dispensary owner types. Greed over humility.

 

Also, aren't Washington dispensaries all strict commercial grown entities?  I am sure you are better off purchasing from some random pot peddler outside the dispensary in Washington. Higher quality.

 

Also, only 75,000 of the 200,000 patients uses a CG.  The average Cg now has 2 patients.  I think we have many self supporting patients, and that the vast majority of Cg's are self supporting patients who are able to help another patient or two.  Many many are just spouses helping spouses and the like.  Sure there are some dispensary whoore CG's out there, but they are very few and they give the vast majority a bad name.

[trichcycler]

 

 

Just because I support increased access for those who cannot find good caregivers does not skew my perspective for all CG. However, if there are so many good, easy to access CG out there then why is the dispensary business booming? It’s because bad CG exist, people’s crops die or get infested, ect.

 

 

I wonder of this too. I know the state makes a cg service difficult at least to begin with. A patient may have to wait for meds to be ready because cg's cant have extra supply on hand. We're limited in plant numbers and this ultimately keeps our strain diversification to a minimum, while a dispensary can offer a wide variety of

many cg's garden overages.

 

I only here of other caregivers mostly, but I do meet many patients. I used to think there may be a cg for every patient but I no longer believe that. there are patients who no respectable caregiver would register. Some buy and sell, some are strictly recreational, some are strung out on opiates/antidepressants and difficult to serve etc. Those are some of my experiences shared by others I suspect.

 

Patients and caregivers found that growing cannabis for another person is more than meets the eye. Its a unique relationship between two people that is full of responsibilities.  I've interviewed hundreds of patients who were not responsible adults, at least not enough to make the cut with my registry. Dispensaries could care less how difficult you are to work with, or how late you show up, how little you wish to buy each visit, if you're using alcohol or barbiturates, if you smack your wife or want to for example. 

Now someone here willl turn that into "Only wife beating  drunk druggies visit dispensaries" but thats not true at all,  I can think of many reasons others would too. I'm interested in going to that ann arbor nice one, I like their menu and grading system. I notice they are not shy about their intake of supply . I see they offer select clones too, far out! like visiting little Colorado! I hope they dont carry side arms and walk around with a cigarette in their mouths.....like the last one I visited.

 

I'd say people selling black market cannabis to the dispensary are the ones mainly using pesticides, or not drying properly, or harvesting early, or producing mal nourished plants imo.....the rest of us know better, on all accounts