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OwlintheNight

Legalization

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And 4209 and 4210 did NOTHING to affect the Cg /Patient relationship. 

 

So all your sky is falling bunny muffin did nothing but keep people from supporting bills that could've even been better if they had some support.  These bills affected not one patient or caregiver who don't use dispensary services!  People like you throw all sorts of falsities out there when you don't know what you're talking about,( <--- that is exactly you Norby) which gets the community paranoid and selfish and goes against progress! 

 

Personally I'd be embarrassed if I voted for the MMMA .....  It gave you a "right" just enough that you'd sell everyone else out just for what you got, because you don't want to loose it.  That's how divide and conquer works. Won't vote or support anything that gives more rights to others because of what your afraid of loosing.  You vote the same way as Shuette.  They opened the MMMA and none of your fears came true. But it did hurt people who run and use dispensaries. 

 

 

Norby, you are so wrong on so many levels.

 

 

Harm to patients and caregivers happened.  Without the opposition, it would have been much worse. It gave us leverage. Without the relentless work of certain people to protect caregivers and patients from the greed, selfishness and indiscriminate negative generalizations to how bad the MMMAct is; this would have absolutely 100% been way worse.  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse.  I mean,... WAY fukn worse. 

 

Just a few of the harms we know of, and we still have  no idea what many of the unintended and unforeseen consequences that will eventually always arise will be(and Norby says these are good and cause NO HARM WHATSOEVER TO PATIENTS OR CAREGIVERS.!      BEWARE OF THE NORBY ---> HE HAS AN AGENDA):

 

(N) A QUALIFYING PATIENT SHALL NOT TRANSFER A MARIHUANA-

     INFUSED PRODUCT OR MARIHUANA TO ANY INDIVIDUAL.

 

(O) A PRIMARY CAREGIVER SHALL NOT TRANSFER A MARIHUANA-INFUSED

      PRODUCT TO ANY INDIVIDUAL WHO IS NOT A QUALIFYING PATIENT TO WHOM

      HE OR SHE IS CONNECTED THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT'S REGISTRATION PROCESS.

 

SEC. 4B.

     (1) EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN SUBSECTIONS (2) TO (4), A 

           QUALIFYING PATIENT OR PRIMARY CAREGIVER SHALL NOT TRANSPORT OR 

           POSSESS A MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN OR UPON A MOTOR VEHICLE. (New crimes and excuses for targeted searches)

      (2) THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A QUALIFYING PATIENT FROM 

           TRANSPORTING OR POSSESSING A MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN OR UPON A 

           MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IS IN A SEALED AND 

           LABELED PACKAGE THAT IS CARRIED IN THE TRUNK OF THE VEHICLE OR, IF

           THE VEHICLE DOES NOT HAVE A TRUNK, IS CARRIED SO AS NOT TO BE

           READILY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE. THE LABEL MUST

           STATE THE WEIGHT OF THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN OUNCES, NAME

           OF THE MANUFACTURER, DATE OF MANUFACTURE, NAME OF THE PERSON FROM

           WHOM THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT WAS RECEIVED, AND DATE OF RECEIPT.

        (3) THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A PRIMARY CAREGIVER FROM 

             TRANSPORTING OR POSSESSING A MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN OR UPON A 

             MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IS ACCOMPANIED BY AN 

             ACCURATE MARIHUANA TRANSPORTATION MANIFEST AND ENCLOSED IN A CASE

            CARRIED IN THE TRUNK OF THE VEHICLE OR, IF THE VEHICLE DOES NOT 

             HAVE A TRUNK, IS ENCLOSED IN A CASE AND CARRIED SO AS NOT TO BE 

             READILY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE. THE MANIFEST 

             FORM MUST STATE THE WEIGHT OF EACH MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN 

            OUNCES, NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE MANUFACTURER, DATE OF MANUFACTURE,

            DESTINATION NAME AND ADDRESS, DATE AND TIME OF DEPARTURE, ESTIMATED 

            DATE AND TIME OF ARRIVAL, AND, IF APPLICABLE, NAME AND ADDRESS OF

            THE PERSON FROM WHOM THE PRODUCT WAS RECEIVED AND DATE OF RECEIPT. 1

      (4) THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A PRIMARY CAREGIVER FROM 2

           TRANSPORTING OR POSSESSING A MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN OR UPON A 3

           MOTOR VEHICLE FOR THE USE OF HIS OR HER CHILD, SPOUSE, OR PARENT 4

           WHO IS A QUALIFYING PATIENT IF THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IS IN 5

           A SEALED AND LABELED PACKAGE THAT IS CARRIED IN THE TRUNK OF THE 6

           VEHICLE OR, IF THE VEHICLE DOES NOT HAVE A TRUNK, IS CARRIED SO AS 7

           NOT TO BE READILY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE. THE 8

           LABEL MUST STATE THE WEIGHT OF THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT IN 9

           OUNCES, NAME OF THE MANUFACTURER, DATE OF MANUFACTURE, NAME OF THE 10

           QUALIFYING PATIENT, AND, IF APPLICABLE, NAME OF THE PERSON FROM 11

           WHOM THE MARIHUANA-INFUSED PRODUCT WAS RECEIVED AND DATE OF 12

            RECEIPT.

 

Sec. 5 (h) (3) The department shall verify to law enforcement personnel

   AND TO THE NECESSARY DATABASE CREATED IN THE MARIHUANA TRACKING ACT AS

   ESTABLISHED BY THE MEDICAL MARIHUANA FACILITIES LICENSING ACT

      whether a registry identification card is valid, without disclosing

      more information than is reasonably necessary to verify the

      authenticity of the registry identification card.

 

Sec. 6 (l)  FOR THE FISCAL YEAR ENDING SEPTEMBER 30, 

            2016, $8,500,000.00 IS APPROPRIATED FROM THE MARIHUANA REGISTRY FUND TO

           THE DEPARTMENT FOR ITS INITIAL COSTS OF IMPLEMENTING THE MEDICAL

            MARIHUANA FACILITIES LICENSING ACT AND THE MARIHUANA TRACKING ACT .

 

Sec 7 (b)(4) Operate, navigate, or be in actual physical control of any 

motor vehicle, aircraft, SNOWMOBILE, OFF-ROAD RECREATIONAL VEHICLE,

or motorboat while under the influence of marihuana.

 

Sec 7 (6) SEPARATE PLANT RESIN FROM A MARIHUANA PLANT BY BUTANE

            EXTRACTION <<IN ANY PUBLIC PLACE OR MOTOR VEHICLE, OR INSIDE OR WITHIN

            THE CURTILAGE OF ANY RESIDENTIAL STRUCTURE.

         (7) SEPARATE PLANT RESIN FROM A MARIHUANA PLANT BY BUTANE

             EXTRACTION IN A MANNER THAT DEMONSTRATES A FAILURE TO EXERCISE

             REASONABLE CARE OR RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR THE SAFETY OF OTHERS.

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If you want to have good marijuana legislation then you have to move that up your list of priorities when you vote. The Democratic Party has a better platform for marijuana legalization. So who the f voted for SNYDER? I sure didn't. And who voted the Republicans into power in Michigan? I sure didn't. 

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And now meds will be too expensive at dispensaries and people will flock to CG's.  Then the gov't will realize it's not making it's projected cash and dispensaries will get the gov't backing to take out cg's.  If you would have all realized that your interests lie with the interests of everyone else in the program and stood together to support these bills the worst that would've happened is what we have now. This is a step process by the gov't and you failed the first step.  Now that dispensaries are hooked to the gov't they'll get the backing they needed to drive Cg's out. MiLegalize is the only thing that'll save the program now, in any form.

 

Cannabis and cannabis products have always been too expensive at dispensaries.  On average, nothing cheaper than a caregiver. Always been that way, always will be. Home growing is the only solution. Even under "legalization", home growing is the only solution. 

 

Also, the dispensaries could have run their own ballot initiative for commercialization and completely left patients and caregivers alone, caused no harm, and actually gotten what they wanted.  I tried, I begged, I pleaded for them to do such since February of 2010.  I knew the legislative route was a loser.  In the end, the MMJ commercial interests spent enough money to do a ballot initiative and they got handed the exact craap I expected.  They only have themselves to blame.  I am just glad we managed to stop most of the harm they were causing.

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I mean, if even only 100 dispensaries put up $10,000( minus $3 for every signature they get) , the simple cost of a BASIC license now, they could have passed an AWESEOME law with NO licensing fees!

 

Or wtvr the fuk they wanted.

 

It is 100% their own fault for being stupid.

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And now meds will be too expensive at dispensaries and people will flock to CG's.  Then the gov't will realize it's not making it's projected cash and dispensaries will get the gov't backing to take out cg's.  If you would have all realized that your interests lie with the interests of everyone else in the program and stood together to support these bills the worst that would've happened is what we have now. This is a step process by the gov't and you failed the first step.  Now that dispensaries are hooked to the gov't they'll get the backing they needed to drive Cg's out. MiLegalize is the only thing that'll save the program now, in any form.

Dude, your crystal ball is broken. Why do you keep using it?

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Sorry Mal, I don't read your posts anymore.  I don't trust you.  You got people here calling legislators saying the same thing Shuette and Snyder and the cops wanted.  You lost all credibility when you stated that the bills weren't near as bad as you thought they would be.  You know the same about the future as any member here, squat! You know little about strategy and logic also. You do seem to have an axe to grind with the person who wrote/proposed the bills though.  And your solution seems to be to elect more Dems so I don't trust your agenda either since they haven't done shiit for the MMMA either.  So I won't waste my time arguing with you.

Edited by Norby

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Good call, because you can't win, because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

Literally anybody who was paying attention to the Legislative matters at the time could have told you in no uncertain terms that the original language in the bills would be changed substantially, for the worse, before any possibility at passage.

And not by our phone calls either. 

 

Norby said;  You got people here calling legislators saying the same thing Shuette and Snyder and the cops wanted. 

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Good call, because you can't win, because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

Literally anybody who was paying attention to the Legislative matters at the time could have told you in no uncertain terms that the original language in the bills would be changed substantially, for the worse, before any possibility at passage.

 

Especially Malamute, who had been in deep for months, years really, attempting to protect the act against the consequences of the commercial lobby.

Good answer, dont give any facts to rebutt my claims, just call out my ability to understand a situation.  Maybe you guys weren't convincing enough because you didn't know what you were talking abuot.

And that got us to the stage we're at now?  Set the stage for Cg to be taken out.  Well what you wanted anyway to get people pushed back to CG before teh state takes them out?  So are you allowing advertising from dispenses here Zap?

And you are telling me a push ffrom the patients to control the language instead of being against it would've done nothing to make these laws any better?  You think backing Shuette and Snyder's position was the right vote?

You may know people and the gov't but you have no clue about strategy if your call is to back Dems and maybe they'll do something.  So you think we have no pull when it comes to getting a bill thru with the language you want but somehow calling against it does some good?  Good logic.

Edited by Norby

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This is a medical marijuana web site and that comes first as a priority. All of our actions reflect that. We totally understand our government and the players. Every move is cold and calculated to further medical marijuana.

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Norby,

 

I think maybe the central point that you are missing is the fact that the Michigan Medical Marijuana Association exists to promote the rights of cannabis patients, not canna-business. If the issue does not directly effect cannabis patients, ie, grow rights, improper enforcement by police, local laws attempting to circumvent the State law etc., then it is not a concern of this organization.

 

The success or failure of any given commercial enterprise is not within the realm of our concern, even if the business deals in cannabis or cannabis products. When said commercial enterprises attempt to change the law or use to their advantage at the expense of the patients then it becomes our concern.

 

Dispensaries may help some patients and may well be the best option for those who either have a great deal of disposable income or only need small quantities for their particular ailment.

 

It is my personal opinion that dispensaries are geared more to recreational users than medical users.

However, whether or not dispensaries succeed or even exist does not directly impact patients rights as I see it.

 

Perhaps you would be better off making your arguments with an organization like the National Patients Rights Association. Their main concern, if I'm not mistaken, is the ability of dispensaries to thrive and grow. They are one of the lobbying groups that has often come up in conversations when we discuss those trying to throw grow rights and caregivers under the bus.

 

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.nprausa.com/

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Norby,

 

I think maybe the central point that you are missing is the fact that the Michigan Medical Marijuana Association exists to promote the rights of cannabis patients, not canna-business. If the issue does not directly effect cannabis patients, ie, grow rights, improper enforcement by police, local laws attempting to circumvent the State law etc., then it is not a concern of this organization.

 

The success or failure of any given commercial enterprise is not within the realm of our concern, even if the business deals in cannabis or cannabis products. When said commercial enterprises attempt to change the law or use to their advantage at the expense of the patients then it becomes our concern.

 

Dispensaries may help some patients and may well be the best option for those who either have a great deal of disposable income or only need small quantities for their particular ailment.

 

It is my personal opinion that dispensaries are geared more to recreational users than medical users.

However, whether or not dispensaries succeed or even exist does not directly impact patients rights as I see it.

 

Perhaps you would be better off making your arguments with an organization like the National Patients Rights Association. Their main concern, if I'm not mistaken, is the ability of dispensaries to thrive and grow. They are one of the lobbying groups that has often come up in conversations when we discuss those trying to throw grow rights and caregivers under the bus.

 

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.nprausa.com/

I see,so the original writing of teh bill somewhere, negatively affected the pt yet this rewritten bill didn't affect patients at all?

I can see you didn't visit many dispensaries because the ones that I visited were geared towards patients, had literature and info not only about the law but also about meds.  None were double what most cg's(and for a convenient store that's not bad) charge and from my patients talk the meds were much better than they got from their cgs and they were the only place they could get medibles, tinctures, etc. since their cg's couldn't even get the buds without mold or mites. 

I'm not complaining the MMMA didn't endorse the bills I'm saying that people in this forum were led by Mal into not supporting the bills out of fear, bad logic and strategy.

I don't understand how you think I'm standing up for dispensaries or care whether individual ones succeed or fail. I'm standing up for the right of the patient to visit them and not have them taxed and regulated out of business.  I've seen some advocate for 10pt/2cg thing and talk about putting it forward, so you can do that but can't endorse a bill which expands pt rights the way it's written?  Fishy.  But you brought it up not me.  Personally I think it's all justifications.  So will dispenses people be able to come here and express their views now since they are legal? 

Funny though that you think Snyder and Shuette didn't know what they were doing so the strategy was to take their position on the bills.  In a sense you helped them accomplish the hold on the vote till they rewrote it the way tehy wanted.  Maybe you should merge with NPRA?

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I see,so the original writing of teh bill somewhere, negatively affected the pt yet this rewritten bill didn't affect patients at all?

I can see you didn't visit many dispensaries because the ones that I visited were geared towards patients, had literature and info not only about the law but also about meds.  None were double what most cg's(and for a convenient store that's not bad) charge and from my patients talk the meds were much better than they got from their cgs and they were the only place they could get medibles, tinctures, etc. since their cg's couldn't even get the buds without mold or mites. 

I'm not complaining the MMMA didn't endorse the bills I'm saying that people in this forum were led by Mal into not supporting the bills out of fear, bad logic and strategy.

I don't understand how you think I'm standing up for dispensaries or care whether individual ones succeed or fail. I'm standing up for the right of the patient to visit them and not have them taxed and regulated out of business.  I've seen some advocate for 10pt/2cg thing and talk about putting it forward, so you can do that but can't endorse a bill which expands pt rights the way it's written?  Fishy.  But you brought it up not me.  Personally I think it's all justifications.  So will dispenses people be able to come here and express their views now since they are legal? 

Funny though that you think Snyder and Shuette didn't know what they were doing so the strategy was to take their position on the bills.  In a sense you helped them accomplish the hold on the vote till they rewrote it the way tehy wanted.  Maybe you should merge with NPRA?

Norby, maybe take a stand and let people know once and for all, in all honesty. Do you have a current or projected future interest in a dispensary. Keep it real. That makes discussions easier.

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You've got your guns all blazing the wrong direction, Norby. We tried to tell those guys this was going to happen years ago. Then told them again as the bills got worse, then again, and again. We told them long ago exactly how this would go, and they did not listen, nor care. There was absolutely no way for patients and caregivers to support dispensaries that would have stopped this, since the dispensary advocates spent so much time and money convincing the Legislature that only very tightly controlled manufacture and distribution, mandatory testing, secure transport, etc could satisfy patient needs. You helped try to convince patients here of the same, and have engaged in a ton of negative posts regarding caregivers. Even in this thread.

 

They did this, rather than advocate for expanded patient and caregiver rights. Patients and caregivers were used by this process, not consulted or cared for. Therefore, they are consumers in the new system. Just consumers. At least they are not overregulated as producers in the system, which the House amendments to the original language allowed. The language as it passed the House, with caregiver overages still supplying the system, allowed inspections of home grows and required mandatory testing.

 

And anyway, in a couple of years, patients will have dispensaries, with mandatory testing and secure transport, and they will be able to get a caregiver if they want one instead. If the corporate interests blame caregivers rather than their bought and paid for Legislators for their inability to make money, I hope you'll join us in trying to protect patients and their caregivers against their attempts.

Could not agree more with the last 2 paragraphs. Edited by free420country

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i think you should actually take a minute and read the bills norby. especially the seed to sale tracking bill.

 

then, i think, you will understand mal and the mmma's position on these bills.

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i think you should actually take a minute and read the bills norby. especially the seed to sale tracking bill.

 

then, i think, you will understand mal and the mmma's position on these bills.

speaking of seed to sale....I see now patients and caregivers will be able to sell clones and seeds to the licensed growers/suppliers. any thoughts about  how/if/can they  track this part of the cannabis road?

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Norby, maybe take a stand and let people know once and for all, in all honesty. Do you have a current or projected future interest in a dispensary. Keep it real. That makes discussions easier.

Not if I'd have to leave my patients.

  Is the only thing you have against my ACTUAL STATEMENTS is if I'm involved with dispensaries?  You can't figure out the logic yourself?  Ckue: I;m not or ever wanted to be in politics.  I don't lie!

I did want to sell to dispensaries to make an extra buck and give more discounts to my patients. Did I ever sell to a dispensary?  Yes, once so that I could afford cannatonic for myself and a patient.  So it was a trade since no cash ever changed hands.  I do use them for drop off points for testing.  I'll stand up for whatever I see helps patients. Neither just dispensaries nor just caregivers(the way it is now with only 1 or even if there were 2 or more allowed) works for patients and I'll always stand up for something that helps patients.  This bill the way it was rewritten doesn't work, it'll turn out just like NY.  I'd not even take a license to grow for free nor run a dispensary with a free license with these new laws and regs.  they'll fail just like they are doing in NYS under a Dem gov. who just saw $ for the state and sold out the the people who bought the licenses they distributed.

So, you'll never get me to say I'll never do anything in the future.  That depends on how things work out.  But I'd most likely move to a different state rather than do anything with a dispensary in this state.  I wouldn't be able to look a patient in the eye and then charge what the new dispensaries are going to have to charge to make a profit.

 

Well it's been fun but I have no more time for this crap.  My Grandpa(yes I'm 47 and my Grandpa is still alive for the next few days), he just got moved to hospice and I have to get back to NY to be with my Mom. Maybe we can pick up on this lovely witch hunt when I get back though. Any other questions about my integrity will have to wait though.  But I do guarantee I am genuine in that I am owned by no one but reason and the cause of stopping people getting into trouble for MJ.  You just can't see it since you guys thing that any "store/dispensary" for MJ will be corporate, big MJ.  You guys thought that every dispensary out there was in cahoots with the "dispensary lobby" and trying to get rid of CG's.  I can see how you'd be mistaken about me if you think that.  But I can't really control that so it doesn't bug me, I just wish you guys pay attention so I don't have to repeat this every argument.  Can we get this post as a sticky or something so I can just link to it or copy and paste it?

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Not if I'd have to leave my patients.

Is the only thing you have against my ACTUAL STATEMENTS is if I'm involved with dispensaries? You can't figure out the logic yourself? Ckue: I;m not or ever wanted to be in politics. I don't lie!

I did want to sell to dispensaries to make an extra buck and give more discounts to my patients. Did I ever sell to a dispensary? Yes, once so that I could afford cannatonic for myself and a patient. So it was a trade since no cash ever changed hands. I do use them for drop off points for testing. I'll stand up for whatever I see helps patients. Neither just dispensaries nor just caregivers(the way it is now with only 1 or even if there were 2 or more allowed) works for patients and I'll always stand up for something that helps patients. This bill the way it was rewritten doesn't work, it'll turn out just like NY. I'd not even take a license to grow for free nor run a dispensary with a free license with these new laws and regs. they'll fail just like they are doing in NYS under a Dem gov. who just saw $ for the state and sold out the the people who bought the licenses they distributed.

So, you'll never get me to say I'll never do anything in the future. That depends on how things work out. But I'd most likely move to a different state rather than do anything with a dispensary in this state. I wouldn't be able to look a patient in the eye and then charge what the new dispensaries are going to have to charge to make a profit.

 

Well it's been fun but I have no more time for this crap. My Grandpa(yes I'm 47 and my Grandpa is still alive for the next few days), he just got moved to hospice and I have to get back to NY to be with my Mom. Maybe we can pick up on this lovely witch hunt when I get back though. Any other questions about my integrity will have to wait though. But I do guarantee I am genuine in that I am owned by no one but reason and the cause of stopping people getting into trouble for MJ. You just can't see it since you guys thing that any "store/dispensary" for MJ will be corporate, big MJ. You guys thought that every dispensary out there was in cahoots with the "dispensary lobby" and trying to get rid of CG's. I can see how you'd be mistaken about me if you think that. But I can't really control that so it doesn't bug me, I just wish you guys pay attention so I don't have to repeat this every argument. Can we get this post as a sticky or something so I can just link to it or copy and paste it?

I admire your honesty. So thanks for that. Let's look at numbers. If I, as a patient and CG with five patients, went with the model of a pt or CG being able to sell to anyone, I could quit my day job and make pretty good money. 72 plants on a perpetual cycle, paced-out = on average, four plants per week. At 4 oz per plant that's 64 oz per month. Assume I use an oz per month and give five patients an oz per month for free. That leaves 58 oz per month excess. Consider an average of about $1600 per month in utility bills, general expenses, and capitalized equipment costs. And if I can sell those 58 extra ounces per month at only $100/oz, that means I can net $4200 per month = just over $50k per year. That's a pretty decent living. For maybe 20 hours work per month.

 

This is the reality of many folks in Michigan right now. We have many accomplished growers. But if you add mandatory testing and transport expenses, the financial equation falls apart. It's no longer worth it. So people stay under the radar and keep doing what they've done for years...sell to close acquaintances and avoid all government restrictions. I could go to Tennessee tomorrow and buy 180 proof liquor for $8 per quart.

 

The oppressive restrictions of the new laws in Michigan will only continue to encourage the black market.

Edited by Highlander

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Right. But we can only legally collect from five people who can get a doctor to recommend it. Your total income is what 5 patients can pay you minus operating costs. The legal model, you definitely don't clear much unless you have Willie Nelson for a patient. 

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